Ebony and Ivory

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Ebony and Ivory

    No, this isn't about the schmaltzy duet with Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney.

    I was trying to come up with a non-controversial thread title to talk about a subject that I hope will be taken in the spirit intended. I am curious about musical taste and how and why it is formed the way it is. So I just wanted to see if people's taste in music leans more toward the ebony or the ivory or anywhere in between. In general, I think that there is a blurry line that divides black music from white music. Maybe it's the rhythms, or the groove, or whatever it is that creates that different sound that I hear in some music depending on whether the artist(s) are black or white. To give some very broad generalizations: Country music seems white, R&B seems black, Heavy Metal seems white, Funk seems black. I certainly don't draw hard lines between black and white music but I perceive an overall difference between the general sound of the music.

    Much of my favorite rock 'n' roll music was recorded in the 50's. Back then, thanks to performers like Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, there was a cross pollination of what was at the time strictly segregated musical styles. Once these two broke through, it seemed that the line became very blurred. Then came the 60's, when black identity became increasingly important, and the music sometimes pulled apart into more distinct black and white styles.

    Me, I seem to lean toward the Ebony. The rhythms, the grooves, the kind that are sinuous and slinky. Not that I don’t like the Ivory too, but I tend to lean a lot toward Ebony.

    Now I’m not trying to imply that leaning one way or the other signifies anything or is important at all. And in fact, I don’t really think that different musical styles should be seen as based on race. I think it is more based on cultural differences and regional differences. Pop/rock music seems to borrow from a very disparate array of musical styles.

    So, is there anything to discuss here or am I full of crap? Do our cultural backgrounds have anything to do with the music we listen to?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Kind of a tough one.  My initial answer would be that I lean toward white boy music because I love hard rock and prog rock so much.  But I also love so much blues-based and R & B-based music.  I'm in the gray area I guess.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Somewhat related, I was reminded recently that the 5-string banjo, while normally associated with 'white' music genres like country and bluegrass, is actually an instrument developed/invented by african slaves and brought to the new world with the slave trade...where it was adopted by white musicians (often in blackface) as a way to emulate the minstrel shows which were so popular in the mid-19th century.

    I'm generally of the opinion that most of our modern popular music derives from historically 'black' music (or from africa itself, possibly via cuba or latin america) with few exceptions [as opposed to 'european' music (classical, opera, folk)].  

    From the beats to the rhythms to forms/structures to the phrasing and improvisation skills, virtually all modern music owes much to 'ebony' cultures.  Jazz, blues, boogie-woogie, Rn'B, gospel/soul, dancehall, reggae/dub, and finally rock n' roll are the descendants of much of that earlier 'primitive' music.

    [Note: obviously, there's a lot of 'gray' area here to be filled by music theory and history, but to me, there's no escaping that music and art are highly derivative and heavily influenced by what came before.  History is rife with the appropriation of these cultural elements toward ends which may or may not have respected the original practitioners.  It's also why I tend to regard genres like disco, soul, funk and rap to be part of the rock n' roll canon.]

     

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Well, I'd have to mull it over when I have more time to give a well-thought out answer, but I think I agree in spirit.

    A good way to explore it, imo, is the difference in sound between the black blues muscians of the '40s-'60s, and the white musicians who played the blues during the same period.

    Willie Dixon's "Back Door Man" vs. The Doors'; Stones & Zepp vs. the original black blues musicians they covered.

    Dixon's (or Wolf's or Water's) "Spoonful" (sinuous and slinky) vs. the sound of white people playing blues ('sharper')

    But on the other hand, you've got black musicians who put the 'ivory' in some of your ivory categories. ie, See Hendrix, or Albert King, whose fiery style SRV took up).

    And you've got cross-overs going the other direction, ie, that Emininem fellow.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    All Ivory, Metal, Hard Rock, Classic Rock, Hootie and the blowfish

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rich1273. Show Rich1273's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Ebony I suppose. Hip hop is my favorite genre and the one I return to most. I also enjoy a good amount of soul, funk and jazz. But I can't go too long without listening to some punk rock, psych rock, metal or whatever else would be put in the Ivory category.


    I think cultural backgrounds probably have something to do with it, but also the era you grow up in I think has something to do with it. People now don't have to go out and buy an album from a genre they're unfamiliar with, they can just listen to it online. It's easier to delve into unfamiliar genres. From what I can see there aren't clearly defined lines of people who like hip hop and that's it or people who like metal and that's it like there used to be. Now it seems like if an album is praised, no matter what the genre, people will give it a try. I think that's a good thing.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Great posts everybody.

    I think American music is unique with it's various strands in a big tapestry. With so many different cultures and ethnic groups contributing, it's hard to pin down a pure type of music and attribute it to one distinct group. I think there was at one time a strong regional flavor to music which as time passes has kind of blended in and become more homogenous.

    I prefer certain types of music when performed by black artists. Swing and Bebop Jazz, Blues, R&B, Soul, Funk, Hip-Hop. Rarely do I find white artists as appealing to me in these genres.

    In Country & Western, Rockabilly, and Country/Rock music I tend to prefer white artists.

    But these preferences may be somewhat dictated by the number of black and white artists in those particular genres.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    I listen to mostly British rock bands, with the usual suspects being my favorites (Rolling Stones, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Def Leppard, Radiohead, etc). I'm not that familiar with Blues music outside of the Stones, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, and some Tom Petty & Heartbreakers ... At this point I'm taking the SlimPickenslll route ... I was going somewhere with this but I forgot.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Zeppelin may have been the champs at transmutating black music (blues) into white music ('classic metal').

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Zeppelin may have been the champs at transmutating black music (blues) into white music ('classic metal').

    [/QUOTE]

    By transmuting you mean ripping off from or stealing.


    (they weren't the first or the last but they were probably the most succesful at it, financialy at least.)

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Zeppelin may have been the champs at transmutating black music (blues) into white music ('classic metal').

    [/QUOTE]

    By transmuting you mean ripping off from or stealing.


    (they weren't the first or the last but they were probably the most succesful at it, financialy at least.)

    [/QUOTE]

    devildavid approves of this post. Smile

    Zeppelin has certainly been accused of ripping off some black artists and deservedly so.  However to cast them as mere ripoff artists is much too simplistic.  Page was a very creative man.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Zeppelin may have been the champs at transmutating black music (blues) into white music ('classic metal').

    [/QUOTE]

    By transmuting you mean ripping off from or stealing.


    (they weren't the first or the last but they were probably the most succesful at it, financialy at least.)

    [/QUOTE]

    devildavid approves of this post. Smile

    Zeppelin has certainly been accused of ripping off some black artists and deservedly so.  However to cast them as mere ripoff artists is much too simplistic.  Page was a very creative man.

    [/QUOTE]

    LOL

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Klaas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I listen to mostly British rock bands, with the usual suspects being my favorites (Rolling Stones, Queen, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Def Leppard, Radiohead, etc). I'm not that familiar with Blues music outside of the Stones, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, and some Tom Petty & Heartbreakers ... At this point I'm taking the SlimPickenslll route ... I was going somewhere with this but I forgot.

    [/QUOTE]

    So, you never backtracked to the American blues thing, which is what those bands (minus Floyd, Radiohead) pulled from?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I know you didn't intend for me to respond to this but it got me thinking about my path to the blues. The funny thing is I didn't follow the traditional path to the blues that many white fans did. I was never heavily into Zeppelin, the Stones, the Doors, Clapton, etc. I was always more of a Beatles/Motown/50's rock 'n' roll/pop music fan and I honestly don't really remember how I got into the American black blues. All I know is once I did, I really became obsessed with it. I think it all started with a T-Bone Walker album. Then it was on to Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, John Lee H00ker, B.B. King, Sonny Boy Williamson, Elmore James, Little Walter Jacobs, just to name the most prominent ones in my collection.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    The Led Zeppelin thread laid it all on the line, didn't it?  I have to admit that while I knew that there were some, er, "issues", I wasn't aware of the extent of the misdeeds, and the feelings that surrounded them.    It was hard to handle the truth.  :)   (and :( , too).   One of our best threads / discussions, IMO. 

    I'm thinking more along the lines of what music and artists had a blended audience, for some reason.   It's far too dense a topic to think re: the origins of the music I was drawn to and the reasons, b/c we're so much a part of the era we grew up.  It's a breeze now, for younger audiences to find / discover artists of any era with digitized music, which is why you so often see a comment on youtube under a classic rock song such as "I'm only 17, I hate the music of my generation, and love (this artist); I wish I had been born in the 1970's"  etc.  

    I'd also say we live in a hyrbid-ized world musically now, and it's all for the better.  I would have thought that Motown played a big role in bringing the worlds together, and bringing white and black audiences together as well.   Marvin Gaye?   Didn't everyone love him?  So sad he died so tragically.  

    So many of the true, original R&B singers got their start in gospel and church choirs, such as Aretha Franklin and of course, Whitney Houston.   This little light of mine ... I don't know, but I do wonder if those original roots made the difference for many of the R&B soul singers, if they were singing from a deeper part of their souls.  

    Overall, though, who is in the audience at the concerts you attend?   Don't you think that tells you something, aside from the origin of the band, or how/where they derived their sound or who their influences were?  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Kind of a tough one.  My initial answer would be that I lean toward white boy music because I love hard rock and prog rock so much.  But I also love so much blues-based and R & B-based music.  I'm in the gray area I guess.

    [/QUOTE]

    Since so much prog rock has roots in classical (European), and many prog rock musicians have been classically trained, it's another layer that speaks for "ivory".

    Is this thread only dedicated to the influences of American music?  It shouldn't be.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    For most of us, the introduction to "black" music or Blues began when the British Invasion brought our country's  own music back home.

    The Rolling Stones and the Animals ( more than the Beatles) drew heavily on the "black" music of America. The British Blues scene was teeming with bands that loved this style and added their own signature sound to it. 

    This is not "stealing" or "ripping off" anyone. It is simply musicians taking a style of music they like to play and helping to get it into the homes of people who may never have bought the "black" version or in most cases the "original."

    I can think of the Yardbirds , John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, Ten Years After , Cream , The early Fleetwood Mac , among others as bands that made the Blues "whiter" for lack of a better term. Later Led Zeppelin and all the Heavy Rock bands of the 70's would be "Blues Based", such as ZZtop and Foghat. Deep Purple played a song early in their career ,'Hey Joe' , which was popularized by Hendrix....this is a Blues based song, as is 'Mistreated' which would be a staple of the Coverdale/ Hughes MK 3 era of the band. 

    Personally I think all music ( except Classical) made around the 50's and beyond has influence from "black" music....how can it not?

    We scarcely have any form of entertainment that has not been influenced by the African American's who have changed our culture forever...sports, movies, T.V. as well as music.

    Imagine T.V. without Eddie Murphy, George Jefferson and what would the Mod Squad be without Linc?....imagine movies without Denzel, Samuel B. Jackson or Morgan Freeman....football without seemingly 85% of it's players, including Emmitt Smith and Ray Lewis , I think the NBA would be less attractive if it wasn't for the black athlete. here would we be without Big Papi???...still waiting for next year?...could we imagine music without the Motown sound like the great Temptations?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    Seem, Rusty and his 152 IQ didn't get the Hootie (Darius Rucker is African American) joke.  He went as far as to start a thread on the Patriots Forum.  Seem I'm a treat, in some way, to his Internet world. lol

    He just can't control himself here.  It's sad.  

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Ebony and Ivory

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:
    []

    Seem, Rusty and his 152 IQ didn't get the Hootie (Darius Rucker is African American) joke.  He went as far as to start a thread on the Patriots Forum.  Seem I'm a treat, in some way, to his Internet world. lol

    He just can't control himself here.  It's sad.  

    []
    No, no. We get the joke. The fact is, you actually own Hootie albums like you do Swift. 

    It's just comical.

    Carry on, TCal but leave the big boy/girl to the the big boy/girls.  




    Care to act like a big boy and drop it?

    I find it quite refreshing that this forum is free of the idiotic BS common to so many other forums...  

     

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