The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

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    The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    I'm going to paraphrase (not plagiarize, if you will) an article that I read in the Globe last week re: Mumford and Sons, and their wave of influence on the current explosion in American roots music.   The last time Americana / roots music had a resurgence was ca. 2000, with the "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" soundtrack; the soundtrack won a Grammy, and took original Appalacian folk tunes from the back to the front burner for fans of the genre.  

    The difference between then and now, however, is that Mumford and Sons, an English quartet,  has galvanized the roots scene across a broader landscape, and their trajectory has been unstoppable.   They have led the way for a new crop of bands / musicians  that also play folk / roots music with a similarly influenced "raucous bent", and from that standpoint, have made the genre popular across the mass market, if not trendy. 

    As was noted by James Reed in the article, their recent concert at the TD Garden (last week) was sold out in six (6) MINUTES.   Reed also states that he can't remember the last time a band whose first headlining show went from a small venue (in this case, the Middle East in Cambridge (cap. 575), and graduated to a sold out TDG, a mere 3 years later.  May it be duly recorded that  Justin Bieber or Lady GaGa are not the only pop acts that can accomplish such a feat.  :)  

    The group has spawned many "children" such as the Lumineers, the Head and the Heart, Of Monsters and Men, as well as opening the door for Americana's latest hyped band, the Lone Bellow, a trio out of Brooklyn, NY.   NOTE: The Lone Bellow are the first to be announced in the lineup for the Newport Folk Festival).  

    The question posed is: where does Mumford & Sons go from here, and "is that all there is?"; the contention is, they're all about power and dynamics,  but so soon after their rise to fame, they come off as decidedly rote.   They are consistent in their delivery, so you're either a follower or you're not, but the music, nor their delivery, is nuanced.   The mood of the music is more modern than preceding roots music, and more consistently euphoric, even when singing about lost love and self doubt.  

    Despite the credit they are being issued for paving the way, they are being issued a number of slights: they are "monochromatic" while their newer counterparts, are bending Americana's boundaries.   Could it be that the "children" and the influencees, are greater than the influencers themselves?   A case of the influencers are no longer as good as their progeny?

    The rise of the Mumford / Sons has also coincided with the rejuvenated spirit of the Newport Folk Festival.   The venerable event, curated by producer Jay Sweet, has had record ticket sales in recent years, and by and large, has increased sales to a younger audience.   Selling out nearly 5 weeks in advance last year was unprecedented.   Sweet has lobbied for Mumford & Sons to play Newport, but to no avail; he sees the band as "emblematic of a new era of roots music -- and that comes with a risk."

    Sweet says, " They have the spotlight right now; what they've done to raise everyone's profile is remarkable, but my fear is that there will be a backlash.  People start to look at other (similar) bands ... and think they all sound the same."

    "The backlash can be very fast and furious."

    I started questioning this backlash (if not being a part of it) 6 months ago in a thread re: a band named Dawes.   In fact, I'm going to bump that thread for anyone who wants to revisit it.     All this to say (and sorry for the long reference to the article):  American roots music is flourishing.   It is, however, like any other musical trend that will suffer a backlash: roots bands will be over-rated because they will not need talent or originality to be popular, will catch the wave of opportunity while it's high, will ultimately be clones (if they are not already), all sound alike, and cease to be exciting.  

    Generalizations, I know.  :)   Thoughts (or generalizations), anyone?

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    "I Will Wait"  -- Mumford & Sons  (huge hit)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDOoCUKCDJg

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    Just wanted to list a few of the bands mentioned in the article, that the writer stated have more depth than Mumford & Sons, are progeny of sorts, but who are bending more boundaries:

    Trampled by Turtles (bluegrass and metal)

    Mountain Man

    Dawes  (blue-eyed CA country soul)  HUH?  (hahaha -- I did a thread on this band about 6 months ago asking "WHY?" 

    Lord Huron (indie folk with world music influences)

    Angel Olsen

    First Aid Kit (Swedish sister act contemporary folk singers --- we have had a couple of sidebar convos on this duo, and I took the dissenting opinion that they aren't particularly talented ... but respect the "like" votes of others)

    NOTE: please note that all of this music is "hybrid" roots music.  None of it is defined as, or meant to be, traditional roots music.   

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    I'll start by saying I don't really care for Mumford & Sons that much and never really did...as compared with other, lesser known bands whom I think are more interesting.  However, I do sometimes use them as descriptors, as in "...you know, like M&S."  But I've also thought they added the element of british roots music - similar, but not quite - to their sound, which differentiated them slightly from some of their american cohorts.

    Just off the top of my head, I can think of a half dozen similar, newish groups who interest me more, but again, that's just me.  I can't really explain why M&S have taken off so presumptuously, so maybe someone else can.

    In a way, it's like we were talking about Alabama Shakes.  They had the 'hit' song/album last year.  But I thought Heartless Bastards were better, more interesting, and had a stronger album (their 3rd, btw)...more groove with a tighter band.

    The trend, such as it is, also pre-dates M&S, I think.  And it may turn out that they are the pop apex of whatever this new genre is, and the rest is downhill from here.  We'll see....

    Thanks, yoga, for raising the topic and being on point (as usual).

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    For my part, here are a few similar bands I prefer over the mumfords or their sons, inpo:

     

    The Head & The Heart

    Avett Bros.

    Blind Pilot

    Trampled By Turtles

    Dr. Dog

    Deer Tick

    Middle Brother (hybrid of Dawes and Deer Tick)

    Conor Oberst/Bright Eyes/Mystic Valley Band

    Iron & Wine

    Fleet Foxes

    Blitzen Trapper

    Of Montreal

    Beachwood Sparks

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    For my part, here are a few similar bands I prefer over the mumfords or their sons, inpo:

     

    The Head & The Heart

    Avett Bros.

    Blind Pilot

    Trampled By Turtles

    Dr. Dog

    Deer Tick

    Middle Brother (hybrid of Dawes and Deer Tick)

    Conor Oberst/Bright Eyes/Mystic Valley Band

    Iron & Wine

    Fleet Foxes

    Blitzen Trapper

    Of Montreal

    Beachwood Sparks

     



    Nice list (we may have overlapped in posting  - I added a list from the article to illustrate some of the artists that the writer lauded -- and there are countless others, many of which appear at festivals, and I know you've seen a slew of them.  I even saw a band last summer that was of the same ilk, that I still remember as being very, very good, The Low Anthem, who came equipped with a great number of musical instruments, including the trumpet, for which I am a goner.   (BTW, that's one of the aspects of this music that I love --  the mix of musical instruments such as banjo and mandolin).  

     

    I liked the article, and not just b/c I agreed with the moment of truth at the end.  It simply became more of a question for me, as the music I was hearing, of new and emerging bands, was in this genre, and I couldn't help but wonder, "where's the rock music?"  -- not that it has disappeared, but I remember that you  agreed, this genre has taken on a new life. 

    I don't know if he'll see this post (and if he does, he'll no doubt say "I told you so") but RockScully mentioned Mumford & Sons in a recent thread asking the same questions.

    The height of the popularity of this music is not over yet, and I'm certainly not hoping that it gets deep sixed, by any means,  but I somehow feel better recognizing that this music is phenomenally popular ATM.  Like most trends, what goes up will ultimately come down, but the current high profile with roots-structured music is impossible to ignore.  

    BTW, in addition to the forum, of course, it's listening to WERS that informs me -- I like many, many singles of some of bands listed here, and I owe WERS for my awareness.   

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    Mumford and Son's must be doing something right, selling out arenas that quickly, touching some nerve. For the life of me, I cannot figure out what it is. To me they come off as one of the more contrived acts to come down the road in a long time, right down to their Irish Working Clothes. I dunno know, I find their music boring and repetitive and while there is no doubt they are good muscians, maybe they are trying to hard to be real folk rockers in the same vein as Hothouse Flowers. Just my opinion.

     

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    @scully:

    I dig Old Crow, too...they're mainstays at many of the festivals I've been to and have been doing it for quite awhile.

    I'll add Yonder Mountain String Band and The Infamous Stringdusters to the alt-mumford list.

     

     

     

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    RockScully --- speakin of the devil.   Did you see that I mentioned you in my post above?  I noticed that you had less than flattering things to say about Mumford & Sons recently, so I knew this thread would catch your eye.  

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

     Nice list (we may have overlapped in posting  - I added a list from the article to illustrate some of the artists that the writer lauded -- and there are countless others, many of which appear at festivals, and I know you've seen a slew of them.  I even saw a band last summer that was of the same ilk, that I still remember as being very, very good, The Low Anthem, who came equipped with a great number of musical instruments, including the trumpet, for which I am a goner.   (BTW, that's one of the aspects of this music that I love --  the mix of musical instruments such as banjo and mandolin).  

     

    I liked the article, and not just b/c I agreed with the moment of truth at the end.  It simply became more of a question for me, as the music I was hearing, of new and emerging bands, was in this genre, and I couldn't help but wonder, "where's the rock music?"  -- not that it has disappeared, but I remember that you  agreed, this genre has taken on a new life. 

    I don't know if he'll see this post (and if he does, he'll no doubt say "I told you so") but RockScully mentioned Mumford & Sons in a recent thread asking the same questions.

    The height of the popularity of this music is not over yet, and I'm certainly not hoping that it gets deep sixed, by any means,  but I somehow feel better recognizing that this music is phenomenally popular ATM.  Like most trends, what goes up will ultimately come down, but the current high profile with roots-structured music is impossible to ignore.  

    BTW, in addition to the forum, of course, it's listening to WERS that informs me -- I like many, many singles of some of bands listed here, and I owe WERS for my awareness.   

     



    Clearly, you and I are on a similar page re: WERS (Lesser with WUMB, which is harder for me to tune into), so I'm very conscious of where they're at, musically.  The ongoing playlist they have is informative, and my chats with them at the festivals are always enlightening.

     

    What's eerie to me is how many of the tracks echo some of my own playlists and mix cds.  Even down to the priceless, classic soul and R&B numbers they mix in.  But I also owe them for turning me on to a lot of indie artists over the last few years...in addition to thankfully letting me know what I'm missing in the 'scene'.

    More to the thread's point, I saw The Lumineers open for DMB last December, and I thought the same thing: good, not great, and yet a lot of the college-aged kids were positively swooning.  OK, I thought, I get it, but it's not all that...not yet, anyway.

    Thanks again for opening the gates.

     

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to polar123's comment:

    Mumford and Son's must be doing something right, selling out arenas that quickly, touching some nerve. For the life of me, I cannot figure out what it is. To me they come off as one of the more contrived acts to come down the road in a long time, right down to their Irish Working Clothes. I dunno know, I find their music boring and repetitive and while there is no doubt they are good muscians, maybe they are trying to hard to be real folk rockers in the same vein as Hothouse Flowers. Just my opinion.

     

    You're in basic agreement with the writer, too, Polar.    His main thesis is that they've paved the way for *better* bands, and kicked the door of opportunity open in that way -- to their credit.  

     They seem to have set a standard that wasn't very difficult to surpass according to some; but in the meantime, they're the ones who are selling out arenas.   "$$$"  :)  



     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to RockScully's comment:

    Anyway, I've seen these guys before, a few years back, and I wasn't impressed. 

    On the flipside, there are some interesting bluegress based bands who can really play and are as good as Mumford and Sons or the Avetts.  

    Hate to say it, but the gals out there also probably think the band members of Dawes or Mumfod and Sons are cute, too, so it helps them in that regard.

    Old Crow Medicine Show has been doing their thing for years and don't come off as posuers, IMO, but they aren't selling out arenas in 6 minutes either. Just, good consistent Americana stuff.

    I don't know. Music and the popularity is odd to me.  Back in the 1960s and 70s you can clearly see why a band or artist was widely received even if it wasn't your thing. Today, I just scratch my head.  This goes back to the other thread discussions, I guess. Took Mumford and Sons almost 4 years to come out their current, 2nd album. Hmm.

     

    Always felt these guys nailed this sound years before Mumford and Sons became so big.

     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH0CnjXqCLE

     

    I don't think it's a throw-away comment to suggest that there's an age group of females that are drawn to a band not only for the music, but b/c they find the musicians cute or sexy; it's an absolutely valid point, and one that we don't consider often enough.  Why else would women flock to these concerts?   :P

    I don't happen to feel that way about Mumford & Sons (or Dawes), but then again, I am out of my twenties.   I might scratch my head over this phenom, but then again, I am sure that some of the geeks that I find sexy would make others scratch their heads, too.   

     

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to RockScully's comment:

    The college aged kids swooning things is sort of what I mean about kids in their 20s trying to latch onto something to identify their generation with, because let's be honest, in terms of slid mainstream stuff it's pretty limited. 

    There was a wealth of it in the 1990s, it was less in the 2000s and even less now, IMO. 

    You can go pop country garbage from Nashville, hip/hop rap or the one hit wonder crap that is always around.

    Where are the rock bands?   Like, the good ones?  Again, it's limited, IMO.  I can go see Widespread or the Crowes when they're on tour, maybe Petty, but that's pretty much it and those bands are older bands. Soundgarden is on tour with new material and apparently impressing, which is cool, of you like them.

    It doesn't have to be rock either. I actually like some of these Americana based artists and acts. It's amazing how much talent some uknowns have. Normally, the musicianship is also first rate as well.

    So, yeah this ties into what I was saying a couple weeks ago where the quality is so thinned out, average stuff seems great, when it really isn't that great.  It depends on what you're exposed to in your teens, etc, so if you're 22 now, 10 years ago you were 12 and probably thought Matchbox 20 was great rock and roll. lol

    The only way I can compare it for my age (mid 30s) is enjoying the pop stuff in the 1980s as a kid, deep down knowing it was just that, and always wondering what came before knowing there had to be more.  Then the early 90s hit and that late 60s/early 70s vibe was reincarnated, so my delving into the classic bands and artists meshed perfectly at that time.  16 years old, rifling through all the epic bands and artists, subscribing to fake BMG accounts, etc.

    U2, Petty, REM, and that kind of roots rock alternative style stuff when I first saw it in the 1980s, I knew it was legit up against the poseur stuff.

     

    I see this poseur bluegrass/Americana writers trying to do that, but they just don't have the songwriting ability.  

     



    Again, re: what you and Matty are saying re: the swooning.   

    It's the current music of a newer, younger generation, and it's their call what they latch onto and what they popularize with their concert dollars and music purchases.  I don't think it's a matter of seeking an identity via the music, because it's not that deep, it's just what young audiences do -- they listen, they become groupies (both men and women), and they don't think long-term as to "will this music have staying power."  It is what it is.  

    Sometimes, we need to just let it be.   You're right, the music is marketed to a target audience for the mostpart, and eventhough those demographic lines are very, very blurred these days, it's often a youth market, and that's why others are left wondering what the fuss is all about.  

    Sometimes, I see people say, "I tried to like (fill in the blank)" band or music --- why?  That's like telling me that you read a book that you hated, rather than just put it down to read a book that was perfect for you.    Note: I once did a paper on a book that I disliked so much I didn't finish it, and my professor wrote the following comment: "very good paper, yoga, considering you didn't read the book."   hahahaha.  Man, did he ever call my bluff.

    But speaking of the bluffers and the poseurs ... time will tell, as you say.  For all we know, Mumford & Sons will end up a footnote (my favorite saying), and will be known as the band that opened the door for bigger and better artists.   They are breaking ground in their own way.   In the meantime, they can make all the loot they are capable of, nothing wrong with it, but they won't be getting any of that loot from me.  :)   

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    BTW, I just saw that Mumford & Sons is teaming up with Elton John for a tribute to Levon Helm at the Grammy Awards.   

    Funny, since i just noticed the BDC thread.   

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    BTW, I just saw that Mumford & Sons is teaming up with Elton John for a tribute to Levon Helm at the Grammy Awards.   

    Funny, since i just noticed the BDC thread.   



    Double gag.

    I'm all for honoring Levon, but this was already done last fall, and much better.  A sampling of who was there:

    Warren Haynes, My Morning Jacket, Mavis Staples, John Hiatt, Patty Griffin, Gregg Allman, Jorma Kaukonen, Joe Walsh, Lucinda Williams, et al.

    And the tribute I saw at last year's Mountain Jam in NY, i.e. the "Ramble", was incredible, featuring The Levon Helm Band, Govt Mule, and several of Levon's close associates from his nearby studio.  Here's a snippet:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1A3ZqBAKQY

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    Where are the rock bands?   Like, the good ones?  Again, it's limited, IMO.  I can go see Widespread or the Crowes when they're on tour, maybe Petty, but that's pretty much it and those bands are older bands. Soundgarden is on tour with new material and apparently impressing, which is cool, of you like them.

    I don't know what sort of Rock music you like, but here's a few new-ish bands I love:

    • Giuda (Italy)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28wL4Jvq2k4
    • The Frowning Clouds (Australia)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRqL81lIZm8
    • Thee Spivs (London)    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62h0BLD3DKI
    • The Felines (Denmark)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCBdADg7KGc
    • The Future Primitives (South Africa)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0zlwLr9fnk

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    Where are the rock bands?   Like, the good ones?  Again, it's limited, IMO.  I can go see Widespread or the Crowes when they're on tour, maybe Petty, but that's pretty much it and those bands are older bands. Soundgarden is on tour with new material and apparently impressing, which is cool, of you like them.

    I don't know what sort of Rock music you like, but here's a few new-ish bands I love:

    • Giuda (Italy)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28wL4Jvq2k4
    • The Frowning Clouds (Australia)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRqL81lIZm8
    • Thee Spivs (London)    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62h0BLD3DKI
    • The Felines (Denmark)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCBdADg7KGc
    • The Future Primitives (South Africa)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0zlwLr9fnk

     



    Interesting list.   The poster who posed the question seems to have been banned (again) from BDC, but the rest of us can benefit from it.   

    There are so many sub-genres of 'rock' music in the new music realm, and I believe that's part of the difficulty in coming to consensus as to what defines good music.   It also makes it difficult to make recommendations, until you get a sense of "if you like (fill in the blank), then you might like (fill in the blank), so you know you're comparing apples to apples.    

    And BTW, re: your comment in the Boy Bands thread re: BDC's threads and seeding the Music Forum (since you said you haven't posted here in many months): the posts from BDC are rare, and never touch on any topics that the regular form members would discuss (as is witnessed by the sarcasm in that thread).  :)     BDC has recently written a few articles; they then link the "discuss / comments" to this forum; that is why they are not in sync with regular forum members' choice of discussion topics.   They come and go, on occasion, no big deal, but they are not what we depend on (understatement) by any measure.   

    You glanced at the forum when there were an unusual number of BDC's banal threads, but that is not the norm.     We cover a wide range of topics as a rule; that, coupled with knowledge of music and the various POVs offered and contributed, give the forum a quality standard.    Stick around.  :)

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

     

     

    Interesting list.   The poster who posed the question seems to have been banned (again) from BDC, but the rest of us can benefit from it.   

     

    There are so many sub-genres of 'rock' music in the new music realm, and I believe that's part of the difficulty in coming to consensus as to what defines good music.   It also makes it difficult to make recommendations, until you get a sense of "if you like (fill in the blank), then you might like (fill in the blank), so you know you're comparing apples to apples.    

    And BTW, re: your comment in the Boy Bands thread re: BDC's threads and seeding the Music Forum (since you said you haven't posted here in many months): the posts from BDC are rare, and never touch on any topics that the regular form members would discuss (as is witnessed by the sarcasm in that thread).  :)     BDC has recently written a few articles; they then link the "discuss / comments" to this forum; that is why they are not in sync with regular forum members' choice of discussion topics.   They come and go, on occasion, no big deal, but they are not what we depend on (understatement) by any measure.   

    You glanced at the forum when there were an unusual number of BDC's banal threads, but that is not the norm.     We cover a wide range of topics as a rule; that, coupled with knowledge of music and the various POVs offered and contributed, give the forum a quality standard.    Stick around.  :)



    I thought it was odd to see several BDC threads at the top, and all seriously banal IMO.  There is no "good", there's only "I like"....and the same goes for "bad" and "I don't like".

     

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:



    I thought it was odd to see several BDC threads at the top, and all seriously banal IMO.  There is no "good", there's only "I like"....and the same goes for "bad" and "I don't like".

     

     



    I don't agree with this. I think there are qualitative differences even in the arts, it's just trickier to articulate them. A small minority of people may like off-key singing, but this doesn't mean there is no such thing as bad singing. A toddler may bang randomly on piano keys and think they are making music, but are they really?

    If it's all about like or dislike, there is not much to talk about. The problem with the language of opinion, is that it most often isn't phrased as "I like" or "I don't like". It is usually phrased as "this sucks" or "this is great". If I say "Led Zeppelin sucks", I will get a much stronger response from Zep fans than if I say, "I don't like Led Zeppelin". I don't think this is just a matter of semantics. The first statement implies a qualitative judgement. The second statement merely expresses personal taste, without really commenting on quality.

     
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    Re: The rise in American(a) / root music (via Mumford & Sons) -- and the predictable backlash

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:


    I thought it was odd to see several BDC threads at the top, and all seriously banal IMO.  There is no "good", there's only "I like"....and the same goes for "bad" and "I don't like".

     I don't agree with this. I think there are qualitative differences even in the arts, it's just trickier to articulate them. A small minority of people may like off-key singing, but this doesn't mean there is no such thing as bad singing. A toddler may bang randomly on piano keys and think they are making music, but are they really?

     

    If it's all about like or dislike, there is not much to talk about. The problem with the language of opinion, is that it most often isn't phrased as "I like" or "I don't like". It is usually phrased as "this sucks" or "this is great". If I say "Led Zeppelin sucks", I will get a much stronger response from Zep fans than if I say, "I don't like Led Zeppelin". I don't think this is just a matter of semantics. The first statement implies a qualitative judgement. The second statement merely expresses personal taste, without really commenting on quality.



    If I were to defend my original statement to the hilt, I'd say that your examples were no more music than a tree falling in the forest....they were just random sounds.  But I won't...my statement was not intended to include all extremes so I'll back off it.

    I despise most music of the 70s that isn't Punk.  To me bands like Pink Floyd, Rush, ELO, and all others of that ilk are crushingly boring, devoid of passion, and a million miles away from what rocknroll is supposed to be.  That's why Punk exploded so fast and so widely....it was so easy to expose the arrogant dinobores for what they were.

    Were the former better musicians?  Generally speaking, yes, as many Punk bands devalued virtuoso playing in favour of passion and power and the now.  But what good did good musicianship do for Toto?  My point, getting back to good vs bad, is who am I to tell someone that Pink Floyd (post-Barrett) is bad?  I don't even really think that, I just hate them.  

     

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