For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I get a kick out of the LL section! In most cases, you can here them saying "I'm 23 years old" as they type the letter.  So that being said, I came across a great article to share for the 20 something's out there considering the difficult and rewarding task of marriage...

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    The number one predictor of divorce is the habitual avoidance of conflict.

    What's sad is the reason couples avoid conflict is because they believe it (conflict) causes divorce.  It's like the cartoon where the couple explains to the marriage counselor, "We never talk anymore. We figured out that's when we do all our fighting."  In the beginning, we avoid conflict because we are in love and we believe that "staying in love" is about agreeing, about NOT fighting.

    We're afraid that if we disagree – or fight – we'll run our marriage off into the ditch.
    We believe that if we've found our soulmate, we'll agree about most things - and
    certainly about the important things.

    Later, we avoid conflict because when we try to deal with our differences
    things get so out of hand and our fights so destructive and upsetting
    that we simply shut down. After a few bad blow-ups we
    become determined to avoid conflict at any cost. And, we start wondering
    if we married the wrong person. It shouldn't be this hard.

    Successful couples are those who know how to discuss their differences
    in ways that actually strengthen their relationship and improve intimacy.
    Successful couples know how to contain their disagreements – how to keep them from
    spilling over and contaminating the rest of their relationship.

    While it's true that we don't get married to handle conflict, if a couple doesn't
    know how – or learn how – to fight or manage their disagreements successfully, they won't be able to
    do all the other things they got married to do.

    Put another way, it's hard to take her out to the ball game if you're not speaking.
    Couples are often so determined to avoid disagreements that they shut down – quit speaking, quit loving.

    Couples need to know what the research has found: that every happy, successful couple has
    approximately ten areas of "incompatibility" or disagreement that they will never resolve.
    Instead, the successful couples learn how to manage the disagreements and live life "around" them
    – to love in spite of their areas of difference, and to develop understanding and empathy for
    their partner's positions.

    The divorce courts have it all wrong. "Irreconcilable differences" – like a bad knee or a chronic back – are
    not a reason to divorce. Instead, they are part of every good marriage. Successful couples
    learn to dance in spite of their differences. They gain comfort in knowing they know their partner,
    know which issues they disagree on and must learn to manage.

    They also understand that if they switch partners they'll just get ten new areas of disagreement, and sadly,
    the most destructive will be about the children from their earlier relationships.

    In addition to skills for handling disagreements, we also have to learn to welcome and embrace change.
    When we marry we promise to stay together till death us do part – but, we don't promise to stay the same.
    That would be deadly dull. We need skills and confidence to welcome, integrate, and negotiate change along the way.

    The good news is that the skills or behaviors for handling disagreement and conflict,
    for integrating change, and for expressing love, intimacy, sex, support,
    and appreciation can all be learned. Couples can unlearn the behaviors that predict divorce –
    that destroy love – and replace them with behaviors that keep love alive.

    Diane Sollee
    www.smartmarriages.com
    Copyright, CMFCE.
    ********************************************************

    After reading the above.  Ask yourself, what's my fighting style? how do I resolve conflict? how do WE resolve conflict? how important is it to be "right"? do you ever use the phrase "I'm sorry, I was wrong" when resolving a conflict?

    Undecided

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    You can't tell a 20 something year old anything.  But, good effort.  Why do you think the divorce rate is 50%?  No one ever tells people this?  No, no one ever listens.  It has to be learned the hard way.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DancesWithWolves. Show DancesWithWolves's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    My wife and I were married in our 20's and this year celebrated our 30th anniversary. Reason why ours worked is because I agree with everything she says. ;-)
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Maldenlady. Show Maldenlady's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I'm with kar...sometimes ya gotta just learn the hard way.

    Well-intentioned people have all sorts of advice about "fair fighting",  how to handle a disagreement, how to raise one's children...the bottom line is these are subjects that everyone has to figure out for themselves, given their personalities, character, and style.

    We make mistakes.  We hurt each other sometimes.  Hopefully, we learn.  That's when we look back and remember what Mom/Dad/Aunt Jane/Uncle Joe/my teacher/my best childhood friend tried to tell me!  There's that expression:  "when I was a teenager, my parents were dumb.  Now that I'm 30, I see how  much smarter they've become!"


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I love that expression, ML.  My parents DID get smarter the older I got!

    The only reason RT knows all this is that he learned the hard way.  God bless him for wanting to help others with what he learned.  But, the School of Hard Knocks doesn't give honorary degrees.  You gotta earn 'em.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    [QUOTE]I'm with kar...sometimes ya gotta just learn the hard way. Well-intentioned people have all sorts of advice about "fair fighting",  how to handle a disagreement, how to raise one's children...the bottom line is these are subjects that everyone has to figure out for themselves, given their personalities, character, and style. We make mistakes.  We hurt each other sometimes.  Hopefully, we learn.  That's when we look back and remember what Mom/Dad/Aunt Jane/Uncle Joe/my teacher/my best childhood friend tried to tell me!  There's that expression:  "when I was a teenager, my parents were dumb.  Now that I'm 30, I see how  much smarter they've become!"
    Posted by Maldenlady[/QUOTE]

    Thank you, I just get crazed at the LL's moaning about the affair, the guy, the girl....you can't fix stupid and when I was in my 20's I was stupid too.

    Laughing
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    [QUOTE]I love that expression, ML.  My parents DID get smarter the older I got! The only reason RT knows all this is that he learned the hard way.  God bless him for wanting to help others with what he learned.  But, the School of Hard Knocks doesn't give honorary degrees.  You gotta earn 'em.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]


    It's funny, as a parent I'm trying to steer my kid's in the "right" direction, as all parent's do.  My 13yo daughter posted something on Facebook that was....lets just say inappropriate.  I had her remove it and then tried to explain the "value" of a - reputation. I "thought" I educated her.  Nope! a few week's later she tweets something just as "dumb!"... I asked her to remind me about our conversation regarding her "reputation" her response..."I forgot!"

    I think after taking away her cellphone, iPod Touch and laptop...she has plenty of time to think about what she did wrong and the "value" of her reputation - there will be a quiz!.....I'll check back with you all in 30 years! Wink

    Laughing
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Like I said, the School of Hard Knocks doesn't give honorary degrees.  You can't teach anyone anything despite your best efforts.  The most you can do is have a daughter that says, "Oh, yeah, Dad did warn me about that.  Dad?!  What do I do, now?"  If you end up with a daughter who comes to you and asks that, you've done well.  What you won't get is a daughter who doesn't have to make (and learn from) her own big mistakes.  If you process that now, you won't be so shocked when she make them despite your having warned her (and even punished her for exercising bad judgement) 'til you're blue in the face.  Not that you shouldn't try - one day it will dawn on her that you have a clue.  Just not for a long time and not before she makes painful mistakes - that's how she'll gain the clue that you were right all along.  It's only in hindsight that she'll get it, post whatever trauma she's crying to Daddy about.  Those are the teaching moments...the ONLY teaching moments.  Every preemptive lesson falls on "Whatever you say, Dad," or "Whatever it takes to get my cell phone back, Dad," deaf ears.  Sad, but true.  And, am I suggesting you let her fail without warning her?  Nope.  Just don't expect her to always process it the way you're hoping she will (or seems like she has) - she just knows how to sound like she buys it.

    ETA:  The frontal lobe of the brain is the last to develop (into one's 20s), and that is the judgement center.  No matter how smart a teen is, she does not have the literal capacity to process warnings like an adult because her brain development isn't complete in that area yet.  Expecting the impossible is what gets parents (and their kids) in big trouble.  Parents mistakenly attribute too much judgement to their teens and are stunned when disaster strikes saying, "They acted like they got the idea not to do that!"  Assume that her brain is not capable of processing the things you're telling her beyond the fact that if she breaks the rules she gets grounded or her cell phone taken away.  Aside from your punishment looming over them, your lesson boils down to blah, blah, blah.  The key is to make the consequences such that she follows the rules until her brain is developed enough to actually get it and police herself (because she understands the real consequences, not because her cell phone will be taken away).  That won't happen until she's in her early 20s, physiologically speaking.  

    That's why concrete consequences that they care about are so important; they are incapable of policing themselves because they are incapable of analyzing risk in a rational, adult way due to their immature brain chemistry in the judgement center.  To assume (and act accordingly) that she gets much of anything before that is a mistake.  Not only has she not learned it herself the hard way, the only effective way imo, she isn't capable of processing the lessons you present from a brain development perspective.  However, she's fully capable of manipulating you and making you believe she gets it.  The question is, will you accept that and act accordingly, or will you dismiss it and make poor assumptions about what you think she understands because she nodded her head in agreement during your whole speech.

    Here's an excerpt from an article on the adolescent brain that summarizes the basis for my ETA section.  It also explains, imho, why no one should get married before age 25 - the judgement center of their brains is not fully developed.  If it works out for someone to get married before that age, before they have their full capacity for judgement, it's darned good luck.

    The parts of the adolescent brain which develop first are those which control physical coordination, emotion and motivation. However, the part of the brain which controls reasoning and impulses - known as the Prefrontal Cortex - is near the front of the brain and, therefore, develops last. This part of the brain does not fully mature until the age of 25.

    It's as if, while the other parts of the teen brain are shouting, the Prefrontal Cortex is not quite ready to play referee.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Kar wrote: "Like I said, the School of Hard Knocks doesn't give honorary degrees. You can't teach anyone anything despite your best efforts. The most you can do is have a daughter that says, "Oh, yeah, Dad did warn me about that. Dad?! What do I do, now?" If you end up with a daughter who comes to you and asks that, you've done well. What you won't get is a daughter who doesn't have to make (and learn from) her own big mistakes. If you process that now, you won't be so shocked when she make them despite your having warned her (and even punished her for exercising bad judgement) 'til you're blue in the face. Not that you shouldn't try - one day it will dawn on her that you have a clue."
    *******************************************************
    I knew going into parenting that my kid's would be no different than any other kid in most ways.  For example, I knew once my kid's reached there teen's I would go from being Dad to being an ATM and a taxi! I never deluded myself to thinking my kid's wouldn't have to learn from their mistakes. But that being said, I'm obligated as a parent to "try" and correct incorrect behavior. I never felt that throwing my arms up in the air and passing their behavior off as "kid's being kid's" would be an option. I've seen that approach to parenting, talk about watching a train coming off the tracks! Books, brain development - I'll share with you what our pediatrician said "children don't come with instruction manual's". There is no "manipulation" I have no problem taking away an iPod or cancelling her cell phone. To a 14yo that sends 30,000 to 50,000 text's a month and has a music library numbering in the 1,000's there is a "huge value" to her. Will I get the requested behavior? probably not, will she continue to make mistakes? absolutely! but at least I know that I have instilled the concept of consequences in her. Heck, she's only 14 I have 9+ years ahead of me of stupid mistakes and repeating myself when it comes to lectures and punishment. Will it work? I don't know, but I do know this, rolling over and playing dead is NOT an option. Being a parent IS NOT a part time job. I always believed parenting began with the decision to have children, going back to that LL post about the guy in his 30's "thinking" about having kid's I stand by my post - "When in doubt....don't!"

    Laughing
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Knowledge is power.  Understanding that a child's brain is not developed in the judgement center until they are in their 20s is important imo.  I did not mean, imply, or state that you were doing anything less than worthwhile, should change your approach, or anything else of the sort.  

    Take the information for what it's worth.  I know other parents who "know" all the things you know about it and still make the mistake of thinking their kids get stuff they don't really get with tragic consequences.  "My child understands xyz and will be more careful than other kids because I've been such a consciousious, diligent parent.  So, I'm letting them do this 'adult' thing because of that," is an assumption, that based on brain development facts is usually an overstatement/overestimation of what their kid really has processed and has at their disposal to protect them "out there."  As a parent I'd find that a priceless thing to know, but if you don't, you don't.  

    But, I'd hope that this knowledge about brain development would prevent an overestimation of any child's capability to assess risk until they are well into their 20s.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    This is what the Mass court system put in place for those parents that don't take the time to parent....

    MASSACHUSETTS CHINS LAWS

    BACKGROUND

    The Juvenile Court in Massachusetts has jurisdiction over: (1) delinquency matters, (2) care and protection cases, and (3) “children in need of services” (CHINS) cases. CHINS cases allow judges to intervene in non-criminal behaviors of children that the legislature has determined is cause for concern, and can be indicative of future involvement in delinquency or adult criminal matters. The non-criminal behaviors the legislature has allowed the Juvenile Court to intervene in are: (1) truancy, or excessive absence from school; (2) runaways; (3) stubborn children, or those who persistently do not follow the orders of their parents; and (4) school offenders, or those who disobey the rules at school. Depending on the behavior in question a parent, police officer, or a school official in charge of attendance can file a CHINS petition. After a Juvenile Court judge adjudicates a child a CHINS the statutory frame work enumerates the dispositions available to the judge. A disposition cannot last more then six months, but a six month extension can be ordered after review by the court, which may include an evidentiary hearing. The following research guide will direct practitioners and those interested in researching CHINS in Massachusetts to pertinent statutes and case law dealing with CHINS cases; and secondary materials that will provide background information, forms, and commentary on the system.

    Mass. Gen. Laws ch. 119 § 21(2006).
    This section defines CHINS as:

    a child below the age of seventeen who persistently runs away from the home of his parents or legal guardian, or persistently refuses to obey the lawful and reasonable commands of his parents or legal guardian, thereby resulting in said parent's or guardian's inability to adequately care for and protect said child, or a child between the ages of six and sixteen who persistently and willfully fails to attend school or persistently violates the lawful and reasonable regulations of his school.


    .....while it's great to "know" a certain part of the brain doesn't develop until your child reaches 20 something.  I don't want to wait! Too many parents make that mistake and that is why we have a juvenile court system Laughing
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    My SIL and BIL deliberately invoked CHINS - on themselves. They couldn't cope with the destructive behavior of a couple of their children, so they asked local police and DSS to intervene, effectively abrogating their parental responsibility without actually disowning their children.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    [QUOTE] .....while it's great to "know" a certain part of the brain doesn't develop until your child reaches 20 something.  I don't want to wait! Too many parents make that mistake and that is why we have a juvenile court system
    Posted by RogerTaylor[/QUOTE]

    I believe I said that it's good information to have so that you don't assume they have processed everything you've taught them the way an adult would.  Assuming that can have tragic consequences.  Teach, lead, and do everything you can do get and keep them on the right path, but you cannot assume it's working to the extent you hope it is right now.  Seems I've hit a nerve, but physiological facts are facts.  Don't like 'em?  Go ahead and dismiss them, but don't shoot the messenger.

    Please point out to me where I said or implied you should wait or change your current method of parenting in any way based on the information that the judgement center is the last to develop.

    I believed that your knowing that teens are not as physiologically capable of assessing risk for themselves would make you an even better parent because you'd be able to foresee problems that might crop up if she's given too much freedom too early because you think she "gets it" because you taught her.  It was a warning for you to not take her head nods in agreement with your judgement lesson too seriously - she might not be getting it as solidly as you assume.  

    But, apparently I was mistaken because all you can do with the information is assume that means I'm saying, "All parenting is pointless."  Sigh.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Well as long as we all take into account that these younger people have developing brains, and give them a pity card rather than rush in to judge them, thats what counts. 
    On the flipside this means that our own brains have no more capacity for growth. Perhaps we are the dumb ones, who are now set in our ways (brain-wise) regardless of our misconceptions of life, and unable to think outside the box. 
    Pity the old decrepit ones who are stuck in their minds with no more room for growth!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage.... : I believe I said that it's good information to have so that you don't assume they have processed everything you've taught them the way an adult would.  Assuming that can have tragic consequences.  Teach, lead, and do everything you can do get and keep them on the right path, but you cannot assume it's working to the extent you hope it is right now.  Seems I've hit a nerve, but physiological facts are facts.  Don't like 'em?  Go ahead and dismiss them, but don't shoot the messenger. Please point out to me where I said or implied you should wait or change your current method of parenting in any way based on the information that the judgement center is the last to develop. I believed that your knowing that teens are not as physiologically capable of assessing risk for themselves  would make you an even better parent because you'd be able to foresee problems that might crop up if she's given too much freedom too early because you think she "gets it" because you taught her.  It was a warning for you to not take her head nods in agreement with your judgement lesson too seriously - she might not be getting it as solidly as you assume.   But, apparently I was mistaken because all you can do with the information is assume that means I'm saying, "All parenting is pointless."   Sigh .
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]
    *************************************************************
    Hello Kar...

    I guess I read too much into this:
    **************************

    "Take the information for what it's worth. I know other parents who "know" all the things you know about it and still make the mistake of thinking their kids get stuff they don't really get with tragic consequences. "My child understands xyz and will be more careful than other kids because I've been such a conscientious, diligent parent. So, I'm letting them do this 'adult' thing because of that," is an assumption, that based on brain development facts is usually an overstatement/overestimation of what their kid really has processed and has at their disposal to protect them "out there." As a parent I'd find that a priceless thing to know, but if you don't, you don't. "
    *****************************************************************
    I have no expectations regarding my children and their development - mentally or physically - I read a lot of books regarding children and stages of development but, I'll always maintain that they will make the same stupid and dumb mistakes I did when I was their age! - it's just part of the growing process and development.

    It goes back to that school of hard knocks you mentioned, as a parent I just want to "try" and cushion the fall.  



    Smile
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    [QUOTE]Well as long as we all take into account that these younger people have developing brains, and give them a pity card rather than rush in to judge them, thats what counts.  On the flipside this means that our own brains have no more capacity for growth. Perhaps we are the dumb ones, who are now set in our ways (brain-wise) regardless of our misconceptions of life, and unable to think outside the box.  Pity the old decrepit ones who are stuck in their minds with no more room for growth!
    Posted by plasko[/QUOTE]

    This is the most ridiculous conclusion you can possibly draw from the fact that adolescent brains stop developing into adult brains in their 20s.  

    The fact that our brains are fully developed means we acheive maximum capacity for greatest uses and learning experiences after that point. 

    Motor skill brain development ends far before the judgement center and you can see it happening as a child learns to turn over, sit up, stand up, walk, etc.  Does that mean that an adult can't learn to juggle?  Of course, not.  It means that a human can't learn to juggle before the motor skill area of the brain is fully (or nearly fully) developed, along with the area responsible for eye/hand coordination.  That's why you don't see any 1 year old jugglers, but you can learn to juggle at any age after your brain is developed in that area to allow learning how to be possible.

    Same with judgement.  Generally, adults can assess risk better than adolescents because they have their full judgement capacity, biologically speaking.  That certainly doesn't imply that that's the end of the learning road or that teens have no judgement whatsoever.

    Goodness gracious, you folks have made some pretty wild assumptions based on the statement of one biological fact.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage.... : This is the most ridiculous conclusion you can possibly draw from the fact that adolescent brains stop developing into adult brains in their 20s.   The fact that our brains are fully developed means we acheive maximum capacity for greatest uses and learning experiences after that point.  Motor skill brain development ends far before the judgement center and you can see it happening as a child learns to turn over, sit up, stand up, walk, etc.  Does that mean that an adult can't learn to juggle?  Of course, not.  It means that a human can't learn to juggle before the motor skill area of the brain is fully (or nearly fully) developed, along with the area responsible for eye/hand coordination.  That's why you don't see any 1 year old jugglers, but you can learn to juggle at any age after your brain is developed in that area to allow learning how to be possible . Same with judgement.  Generally, adults can assess risk better than adolescents because they have their full judgement capacity, biologically speaking.  That certainly doesn't imply that that's the end of the learning road or that teens have no judgement whatsoever. Goodness gracious, you folks have made some pretty wild assumptions based on the statement of one biological fact.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    Uh-oh, poor Kar doesn't know when she is being played like a musical instrument. LOL.
    Wink

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TamaraLee. Show TamaraLee's posts

    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I agree with this article.  I learned the hard way that there is a good way to argue and a bad way.  Nothing good ever comes from starting an argument with the dagger words "You Always" or "You Never".  It's much more contructive and helps the receiver to listen better if you word things from a personal point.  Such as "I feel this".  I also learned using this sentence "I feel this way because of this and it makes me feel turned off" works wonders!

    A time out when arguments are getting very heated is a good thing to.  If I find myself ready to totally blow my top and start overheating and wanting to throw the digs out there?  I always say, "TIME OUT!  15-minutes and we will revisit this when we're both more level headed.

    However, in my 20's would I have ever been able to do this?  Heck NO!  Wink
     

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