Who has the right to demand my ID?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    I was buying a ticket for the C&J bus at South Station when the guy at the counter asked to see a photo ID. I didn't have my driver's license on me, but fortunately I had my passport. Then I thought, who the hell is this guy to demand my ID? Does he have the right to do this? What if I refuse? Maybe I should ask to see his Green Card. And what's he going to do with the information anyway? Is there a terror watch list for people taking commuter buses? What about the Green Line? Or a taxi? Can he stop me from getting on because of the name on my ID? Can he stop me from getting on for not having any kind of ID at all? Would my scuba diving card work? It has a photo on it. Anybody out there know anything about the legal issues involved here?
    By the way. I have heard that at one of the ill-fated pilots on 9/11 commuted to Logan via a C&J bus.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucy7368. Show lucy7368's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    According to their website, C&J requires that all adults provide a valid photo identification. The policy does not say that it must be government-issued, so technically, you could try to present your scuba card.

    I suspect that if you make a big deal about it, they'll just tell you to find another bus. That doesn't mean I agree with them, but that is unfortunately how things work sometimes.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    You're right Lucy7368, that is how things work sometimes, but my fundamental question remains: do they have the right to demand my ID? If not, and they do, and I allow that to happen ... isn't that what people are concerned about when they worry about eroding our basic rights? It might be a little thing, but it can get out of control and lead to much bigger things.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucy7368. Show lucy7368's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    They do have the right to demand your ID, just as you have the right to refuse to give it to them. If you exercise your right to refuse, they will tell you to take another bus. By choosing to do business with the bus company, you are agreeing to abide by their policies and procedures, which include showing them your ID.

    So, in a word: yes.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    It's not as simple as that. State and federal law take precedence over individual contracts and policies. Something stated in a policy is not binding if it is illegal. If the same bus company stated that it refused to provide transportation to left handed people, or blind people, or Muslims, would you agree that they have the right to do that?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucy7368. Show lucy7368's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    There's a difference between discrimination and verifying a person's identity. But, you've already made up your mind that it's illegal, so I don't even know why you're asking.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    You have to show what right is being violated here. It is a search but this is not a governmental entity so the 4th Amendment does not apply. If you could show that it was used to discriminate against a protected class that would violate the equal protection clause as enforced through the commerce clause.

    And as for the type of required identification: a friend recently got on a plane to New York with a Costco card as identification... I feel safer already.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    The right being challenged here is the right to travel freely within the country, which is a bona fide right that cannot be unduly obstructed. There is no law that requires anyone in this country to carry government issued identification, so blocking travel on a public utility by requiring an ID is a questionable practice. However, I read recently that an airline passenger refused to provide ID on principle and the case went all the way to Supreme Court. He lost because there is apparently a secret law that gives airlines the "right." He wasn't even allowed to see the law. Nobody but government officials know what it actually says. The case can be found on the ACLU website. Then the question comes, how can one be found guilty of violating a law that you are not allowed to know about? And how can a law be kept secret in the first place? But I guess that's a topic for a different discussion.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    The right to travel is not really in play here: you are entering into a contract for travel and the company can ask for reasonable requirements to utilize their services. Knowing who they are transporting does not seem particularly unreasonable nor does it appear to be used in a discriminatory way. Bring it to court if you like...

    I need more information on secret laws upheld in Supreme Court decisions...

    I am skeptical of such a thing. Get the website reference please.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    This gets more interesting the more I dig into it. I've tried to retrace my browsing path and come up with the following.

    ----

    A basic discussion of the Supreme Court case I mentioned can be found at:

    http://www.papersplease.org/gilmore/facts.html

    and

    http://www.papersplease.org/gilmore/

    Papersplease.org is not unbiased in their reporting. They appear to be strong advocates for individual rights, but I'm sure you can separate fact from opinion. They have an initiative called The Identity Project (http://www.papersplease.org/what.html). In their own words:

    "IDP builds public awareness about the effects of ID requirements on fundamental rights. The First Amendment rights of assembly, petition, and speech, our fundamental right to travel, and our basic rights to hold property and transact business are all affected."

    Regarding the right to travel and freedom of movement, there is a lengthy discussion at:

    http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery?s=%22Right+to+travel%22&gwp=13 with an interesting quote from Justice William O. Douglas near the end.

    In Chris Soghoian's blog on cnet last June (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13739_3-9962760-46.html) he states:

    "While the judges were not willing to let Gilmore avoid the secondary screening search, they did at least recognize the right to travel without showing ID--providing that passengers are willing to be subject to a pat down and a bit of probing: (Supreme Court:) "The identification policy requires that airline passengers either present identification or be subjected to a more extensive search. The more extensive search is similar to searches that we have determined were reasonable and consistent with a full recognition of appellants constitutional right to travel."

    He cites the official Supreme Court Decision in the Gilmore case at http://papersplease.org/gilmore/_dl/GilmoreDecision.pdf

    This makes it clear that an ID is not even required for airline travel, provided one is willing to undergo a "more extensive search." If this is true, my question is, "If no airline in America has the right to insist that individuals show an ID as condition of travel, how is it that the C&J Bus Company can?"

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ferial. Show Ferial's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    I do believe these regulations were put in place by the President and his Gang of Homeland Security people.
    Don't you feel safer for having been screened?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from kitkat100. Show kitkat100's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    Umm, you never said if you were paying cash or not. It's not uncommon to be asked for ID if you're paying by credit card. Too many fraudulent transactions happending. Also, the bus company is exposed to a lot of liability if something goes wrong. Ex. A bus company in Canada had a customer stab and decapitate another customer. Whether they do anything with the information is a question. But I think you're spending too much effort on this particular issue. The bigger problem is who needs to know your SSN and all the data that is collected by private companies about your spending habits and health records and also why isn't more being done on identity theft.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucy7368. Show lucy7368's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    There may be a right to travel, but there's no right to travel by plane or by bus. If I don't want to show my ID, I can walk, bike, drive, or swim to my destination. Otherwise, I could say that the current price of airfares infringes on my right to travel, because I can't pay what the airlines are asking.

    Regarding Gilmore v. Gonzales, the Ninth Circuit doesn't make law for the entire country - only for those states that happen to be in the Ninth Circuit. Yes, it can be confusing. The denial of certiorari doesn't mean that the Ninth Circuit was correct in its ruling. Usually the Supreme Court will step in if courts in different circuits reach results that can't be reconciled. Regardless, the Ninth Circuit said that there is no constitutional right to fly on a commercial airline, and I don't really see the Supreme Court coming to an alternate conclusion, even if they do receive a similar case in the future.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    Okay, this is getting complicated but let me try to address one at a time.
    Yes I do feel safer having my identity checked, particularly on an airline and particularly to make sure that the person who is carrying the ticket is actually the person who bought it. But how far does feeling secure go? I would feel safer is cars weren't allowed on streets so I couldn't get run over. I would feel safer if I didn't have to get on the plane at all. I would feel safer if I was the only person on the plane. I would feel safer if I could carry a gun myself and wear a bulletproof vest, but nobody else. I would feel safer if all the Muslim extremists were taken out and shot. The question is, and I'm only making these points to illustrate this, the question is, how far can we logically go to insure our own sense of security (a valid right) without crossing the line into blocking other equally valid rights? We can never be 100% secure. Where is the line? And could it be that our politicians are using that fear motivate us to support laws that in the long run will actually curtail our other rights? I'm trying to ask the questions without pushing an agenda, but I realize that these days just questioning those in power is often equated with being unpatriotic. I hope it's not misinterpreted as that.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Herebychoice. Show Herebychoice's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    I don't mind showing my ID when I pay with a credit card. But one store insisted on copying my ID for a debit card purchase. They don't get my money anymore, that's for sure.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    [Quote]anyone who outweighs you 97 lb pencil necked geek weakling liberals can ask for id.


    get over it or move to Cuba or the Russian empire or China and see what human rights violations really are you crybaby sissies.[/Quote]

    I think the discussion has wandered way beyond its original intent which was more about our basic constitutional rights. I solved it myself when I discoverd the "secret" law listed above that gives companies the right to demand ID for travel, even though we are not allowed to know what that law says.

    Oetero does make a good point though. It's obvious when rights are violated in a big way by governments. But I think those big violations get their start as small ones. People don't lose their rights all at once. They lose them in little ways, bit by bit, until it's too late to go back. My takeaway from this discussion is the we need to keep our eyes open, or else people like Oetero, who seems to think that might (or at least weight, although he seems like a bit of a lightweight to me) makes right, will someday be in control of everything.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ecafsc. Show ecafsc's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    Who has the right to demand your ID? Anyone related to law enforcement does
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from lucy7368. Show lucy7368's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    [Quote]

    Oetero does make a good point though. [/Quote]

    Well, they say there's a first time for everything. However, in this case, I think they're wrong.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TarheelChief. Show TarheelChief's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    What is the problem? The problem is credit card theft,not intrusive government actions or corporate invasions of privacy.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    [Quote]Who has the right to demand your ID? Anyone related to law enforcement does[/Quote]

    Well that's related to my whole point from the beginning. I don't think the clerk at a bus counter is "related to law enforcement" any more than the counter help at McDonalds. But let's go even farther. What if there was an actual police officer standing by the bus demanding to see my ID and if I didn't produce one, I'd be stopped from getting on? Considering that there is no law requiring me to carry an ID of any kind (unless I was actually driving the bus), and that I had not broken any laws that would give the officer reasonable cause to suspect me of anything illegal, am I legally required to produce an ID to get on a bus? And if I don't have one or refuse to produce one, does anyone have the right to stop me from getting on public transportation? Apparently on airlines, due to the secret law mentioned above, I CAN be stopped. But on a bus? That's not so clear. What about walking down the street? As I said before, I'm not clear on the answers, but I do think that the questions need to be asked.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    [Quote]Who has the right to demand your ID? Anyone related to law enforcement does[/Quote]

    That is not correct. Except in special circumstances (border crossings, airports, etc.) you need some facts pointing to illegal activity for an agent of the government to demand identification. They can ask, but they cannot demand: it is a type of search protected under the 4th Amendment. But businesses don't fall under this provision unless they are acting as an agent of the government.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from trublusu. Show trublusu's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    I think they do it in case their is an accident or incident so that they can identify their passengers if necessary,
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jtormey. Show jtormey's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    [Quote]I think they do it in case their is an accident or incident so that they can identify their passengers if necessary,[/Quote]

    valid point trublusu;
    It's good to know the names of the people on the bus if there's an accident and people need to be notified. That may indeed be why they do it. But the question remains, can someone be kept off the bus if they can't produce some kind of identification? From one of the postings above, even a police officer can't demand to see ID unless there is some kind of suspicion of wrongdoing. There's nothing wrong with getting on a bus. So I guess they can ASK to see an ID. The question what can they do legally if you don't produce one? I don't claim to have the answer. I'm just asking.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from trublusu. Show trublusu's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    I don't think it's intrusive to ask for ID, all adults should be able to produce a valid ID - if they didn't have one, I would think something is fishy.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from lrecliner. Show lrecliner's posts

    Who has the right to demand my ID?

    I think you may be making a mountain out of a mole hill here, but if you don't feel comfortable giving them your identification because it impinges on your rights, then take public transp or a cab. If they are a private entity and it is part of their policy, then there is probably no way around it. I guarantee if enough people refuse and find some other mode of transp, they will stop asking for ids
     

Share