Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jedwardnicky. Show jedwardnicky's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:

    Ah, an employer's freedom to impose his religion on his employees.

     

    Lovely stuff.



    It might be interesting to find out how many of these employers require/allow their employees to work on the sabbath? I mean, c'mon, it's one to the top ten commandments, isn't it?

    "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

    Good Lord, the near absolute lack of any sort of religious education on these boards is stunning! Why not bring back the "Blue Laws"?

    I'm not sure why an all powerful deity might need to rest though.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ah, an employer's freedom to impose his religion on his employees.

     Lovely stuff.

    [/QUOTE]


    So, since you apparently have a huge issue with the death penalty, what if your employee said, hey, dont pay me , the State says you must directly take your own money and instead purchase phenobarbitol, which will be used to execute a convict?

    OK by you?  You have no choice! This law furthers the State's interests, your personal moral compunctions as an employer are  irrelevant. 

    In fact, your opposition to the death penalty is the very reason the Government harasses you to pay for the phenobarbitol, just as fundamentalist Christians are harassed by the Government to pay for others' birth control.

    Hey, who cares what the employer's personal views are...your unlimited State has the power to do this.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jedwardnicky. Show jedwardnicky's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ah, an employer's freedom to impose his religion on his employees.

     Lovely stuff.

    [/QUOTE]


    So, since you apparently have a huge issue with the death penalty, what if your employee said, hey, dont pay me , the State says you must directly take your own money and instead purchase phenobarbitol, which will be used to execute a convict?

    OK by you?  You have no choice! This law furthers the State's interests, your personal moral compunctions as an employer are  irrelevant. 

    In fact, your opposition to the death penalty is the very reason the Government harasses you to pay for the phenobarbitol, just as fundamentalist Christians are harassed by the Government to pay for others' birth control.

    Hey, who cares what the employer's personal views are...your unlimited State has the power to do this.

    [/QUOTE]

    You must get up pretty early in the morning to do all the stretching required to perform these mental gymnastics.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

     

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:

    Ah, an employer's freedom to impose his religion on his employees.

     Lovely stuff.

     




     

    So, since you apparently have a huge issue with the death penalty, what if your employee said, hey, dont pay me , the State says you must directly take your own money and instead purchase phenobarbitol, which will be used to execute a convict?

    OK by you?  You have no choice! This law furthers the State's interests, your personal moral compunctions as an employer are  irrelevant. 

    In fact, your opposition to the death penalty is the very reason the Government harasses you to pay for the phenobarbitol, just as fundamentalist Christians are harassed by the Government to pay for others' birth control.

    Hey, who cares what the employer's personal views are...your unlimited State has the power to do this.




    hum......

    So an employer's ability to deny an employee access to something based on the employer's religious scruples.....

    ....is somehow the same as an employee telling the employer to buy drugs to kill a person?

     

     

     

    Oh, and uh...PS: My federal tax dollars already support any executions carried out as a result of federal convictions.

     

     

    I argue against the imposition of the death penalty instead of screaming about socialism and the destruction of America. Each to his own, I suppose.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:


    You must get up pretty early in the morning to do all the stretching required to perform these mental gymnastics.




    I think it's just the beans over beans breakfast.

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    why don't these gawd fearing pseudo-christians complaining about the fact that their tax dollars pay for gov't executions?

    [/QUOTE]

    They're only originalists on the constitution... 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There are people out there still opposed to birth control...?

    Really...?!?

    Why...?!?!

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why not?

    Seemed to be an accepted answer to my asking "why" about an issue a couple weeks ago, let's see how it flies going the other way.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There are people out there still opposed to birth control...?

    Really...?!?

    Why...?!?!

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why? Because a large majority of Americans (78%) say they believe in God, and the tenets of many faiths disfavor the use of certain contraceptives.

    Believers are tolerant toward those who want to use contraceptives, which are freely available , cheap and legal.

    Yet the intolerant State now wants to force believers to violate the tenets of their Faith by mandating they pay for others' contraceptives.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Funny how those same "believers" have no problem taking gov't subsidies and tax exemptions from taxpayers, irregardless of the origins of those benefits.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    How wide is that brush you are using to paint your argument?

    [/QUOTE]

    How wide is this brush?

    "Because a large majority of Americans (78%) say they believe in God, and the tenets of many faiths disfavor the use of certain contraceptives."

     

    [/QUOTE]

    How does your follow-on point relate to your link towards taking government subsidies and tax exemptions?  Not getting your point.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ah, an employer's freedom to impose his religion on his employees.

     

    Lovely stuff.

    [/QUOTE]

    How is his religion being imposed onto his employees?  Is he preventing them from buying contraception?  Don't think so.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to skeeter20's comment:
    [QUOTE]

      Is he preventing them from buying contraception?  Don't think so.

    [/QUOTE]


    Expand the scope, move the goal posts, etc.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to skeeter20's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There are people out there still opposed to birth control...?

    Really...?!?

    Why...?!?!

    [/QUOTE]


    Why not?

    Seemed to be an accepted answer to my asking "why" about an issue a couple weeks ago, let's see how it flies going the other way.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not sure what previous issue you're referring to...

    ...but whatever you need to justify your logical fallacies, then have at it.

     

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?

    Just trying to understand the dogmatic reasoning behind this resistance from certain employers....

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?




     

     

    Women are automatons created to assist in procreation and nothing further. Anything that makes procreation more difficult is an offense to God. But if you procreate outside of marriage, you have to sway in terrible stormwinds and hailstones for all eternity.

    God is hardcore like that.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

     

    Women are automatons created to assist in procreation and nothing further. Anything that makes procreation more difficult is an offense to God. But if you procreate outside of marriage, you have to sway in terrible stormwinds and hailstones for all eternity.

    God is hardcore like that.

    [/QUOTE]

    A bit more glib than I was hoping for.

    I honestly want to know from a religious objector.  Clearly, tens of millions of catholics have determined the out-dated status of this tenet, because they ignore it en masse.

    Point being is that I never heard of objections from other christian sects until it was mandated as apart of health care reform.  Is it just a coincidence?

    (Never mind that distinctly religious (non-profit, non-taxed) organizations have been exempted from the rule by law.)

     

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?

     



    Women are automatons created to assist in procreation and nothing further. Anything that makes procreation more difficult is an offense to God. But if you procreate outside of marriage, you have to sway in terrible stormwinds and hailstones for all eternity.

    God is hardcore like that.

    [/QUOTE]

    A bit more glib than I was hoping for.

    I honestly want to know from a religious objector.  Clearly, tens of millions of catholics have determined the out-dated status of this tenet, because they ignore it en masse.

    Point being is that I never heard of objections from other christian sects until it was mandated as apart of health care reform.  Is it just a coincidence?

    (Never mind that distinctly religious (non-profit, non-taxed) organizations have been exempted from the rule by law.)

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, sorry, but I don't think you'll get much in the way of a reasoned and measured response from skeeter. I think that the vast majority of people making noises haven't worked any farther than "because the first amendment!" and may not actually have a personal objection.

    But there was some seriousness behind all that glib stuff. The persons actually religiously offended ground it in the bible's prohibition on fornication and spilling the seed, mandate to go forth and multiply, stress on marriage for children, etc. Birth control prevents pregnancy and therefore offends God's purpose.

    But again, I suspect most of them just want to scream at Obama so "first amendment shut up" is the extent of it.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?

     

     



     

    Women are automatons created to assist in procreation and nothing further. Anything that makes procreation more difficult is an offense to God. But if you procreate outside of marriage, you have to sway in terrible stormwinds and hailstones for all eternity.

    God is hardcore like that.

    [/QUOTE]

    A bit more glib than I was hoping for.

    I honestly want to know from a religious objector.  Clearly, tens of millions of catholics have determined the out-dated status of this tenet, because they ignore it en masse.

    Point being is that I never heard of objections from other christian sects until it was mandated as apart of health care reform.  Is it just a coincidence?

    (Never mind that distinctly religious (non-profit, non-taxed) organizations have been exempted from the rule by law.)

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, sorry, but I don't think you'll get much in the way of a reasoned and measured response from skeeter. I think that the vast majority of people making noises haven't worked any farther than "because the first amendment!" and may not actually have a personal objection.

    But there was some seriousness behind all that glib stuff. The persons actually religiously offended ground it in the bible's prohibition on fornication and spilling the seed, mandate to go forth and multiply, stress on marriage for children, etc. Birth control prevents pregnancy and therefore offends God's purpose.

    But again, I suspect most of them just want to scream at Obama so "first amendment shut up" is the extent of it.

    [/QUOTE]

    I suspect as much, but as always I'm willing to listen.  

    The question I have is whether it's about religious or political expediency.

    But to me, it's never made sense to restrict contraception even on religious grounds...but especially for married people or when female health is an issue.  

    Even worse is when they restrict contraception but don't offer basic maternity benefits.  That's just nonsensical.  Kind of like banning abortions but firing women for having kids out of wedlock.  Insane.

     

    I don't buy the 1st Amdt argument, because that's just imposing one's religious beliefs on someone else, not defending one's own beliefs.  Nobody is forcing anyone to use birth control.  (Whether some people should procreate or not is another matter entirely.)

    Even then, it would seem that a woman's choice of birth control is nobody else's business but her own (and her doctor's).

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName9. Show UserName9's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    First Amendment religious rights are a smoke screen.   Denying their employees coverage for contraception is about economic power.

    Excuses for this abound, but they are all sophistries.

    I don't like contraception because of my religion.
    I don't like contraception because communists require it.
    I don't like contraception because I wish to subjugate women.
    I don't like contraception because I am a control freak.

    Who cares why you don't like contraception?

    You just think that because you sign people's paychecks you own them, control them, and are entitled to dictate how they live their lives.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to UserName9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    First Amendment religious rights are a smoke screen.   Denying their employees coverage for contraception is about economic power.

    Excuses for this abound, but they are all sophistries.

    I don't like contraception because of my religion.
    I don't like contraception because communists require it.
    I don't like contraception because I wish to subjugate women.
    I don't like contraception because I am a control freak.

    Who cares why you don't like contraception?

    You just think that because you sign people's paychecks you own them, control them, and are entitled to dictate how they live their lives.

    [/QUOTE]

    You keep repeating this "dictate" line of logic.  How many times do you need to be told that you are wrong before oyu give it up?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Women are automatons created to assist in procreation and nothing further. Anything that makes procreation more difficult is an offense to God. But if you procreate outside of marriage, you have to sway in terrible stormwinds and hailstones for all eternity.

    God is hardcore like that.

    [/QUOTE]

    A bit more glib than I was hoping for.

    I honestly want to know from a religious objector.  Clearly, tens of millions of catholics have determined the out-dated status of this tenet, because they ignore it en masse.

    Point being is that I never heard of objections from other christian sects until it was mandated as apart of health care reform.  Is it just a coincidence?

    (Never mind that distinctly religious (non-profit, non-taxed) organizations have been exempted from the rule by law.)

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, sorry, but I don't think you'll get much in the way of a reasoned and measured response from skeeter. I think that the vast majority of people making noises haven't worked any farther than "because the first amendment!" and may not actually have a personal objection.

    But there was some seriousness behind all that glib stuff. The persons actually religiously offended ground it in the bible's prohibition on fornication and spilling the seed, mandate to go forth and multiply, stress on marriage for children, etc. Birth control prevents pregnancy and therefore offends God's purpose.

    But again, I suspect most of them just want to scream at Obama so "first amendment shut up" is the extent of it.

    [/QUOTE]

    My response is ALL reason.  

    Tell me, and no one has yet, how is the employer blocking the employees use of contraception?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    My response is ALL reason.  

    Tell me, and no one has yet, how is the employer blocking the employees use of contraception?



    Why don't you try responding to Matty's question about the actual religious objection to contraception coverage honestly, rather than playing these silly games?

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    How many times do you need to be told that you are wrong before oyu give it up?




    Oh, I see where you messed up. You don't win debates by simply announcing that you are correct and the other person is wrong a certain amount of times.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    My response is ALL reason.  

    Tell me, and no one has yet, how is the employer blocking the employees use of contraception?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why don't you try responding to Matty's question about the actual religious objection to contraception coverage honestly, rather than playing these silly games?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    His response is "all reason", because there is no response, and therefore we can't prove a negative.  Sneaky.

     

     

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    My response is ALL reason.  

    Tell me, and no one has yet, how is the employer blocking the employees use of contraception?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why don't you try responding to Matty's question about the actual religious objection to contraception coverage honestly, rather than playing these silly games?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not playing any silly games.  This is a legal issue, not a religous issue, I.e. There is a legal principle in play, not a religious one.

     You ,Matty, and other progressives are claiming that the employers are blocking the use of contraception by their employees.  The only thing I see is that they don't want to pay for them.  That's not a violation of their rights, any way you look at it.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from NowWhatDoYouWant. Show NowWhatDoYouWant's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    So...you cannot or will not explain how it is that use of contraception violates religious commands?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Appeals Court holds that Obamacare contraception mandate violates First Amendment

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to NowWhatDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Shall I presume you have some religious objection to birth control?  If so, then what is it?

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

     

    Women are automatons created to assist in procreation and nothing further. Anything that makes procreation more difficult is an offense to God. But if you procreate outside of marriage, you have to sway in terrible stormwinds and hailstones for all eternity.

    God is hardcore like that.

    [/QUOTE]

    A bit more glib than I was hoping for.

    I honestly want to know from a religious objector.  Clearly, tens of millions of catholics have determined the out-dated status of this tenet, because they ignore it en masse.

    Point being is that I never heard of objections from other christian sects until it was mandated as apart of health care reform.  Is it just a coincidence?

    (Never mind that distinctly religious (non-profit, non-taxed) organizations have been exempted from the rule by law.)

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, sorry, but I don't think you'll get much in the way of a reasoned and measured response from skeeter. I think that the vast majority of people making noises haven't worked any farther than "because the first amendment!" and may not actually have a personal objection.

    But there was some seriousness behind all that glib stuff. The persons actually religiously offended ground it in the bible's prohibition on fornication and spilling the seed, mandate to go forth and multiply, stress on marriage for children, etc. Birth control prevents pregnancy and therefore offends God's purpose.

    But again, I suspect most of them just want to scream at Obama so "first amendment shut up" is the extent of it.

    [/QUOTE]

    I suspect as much, but as always I'm willing to listen.  

    The question I have is whether it's about religious or political expediency.

    But to me, it's never made sense to restrict contraception even on religious grounds...but especially for married people or when female health is an issue.  

    Even worse is when they restrict contraception but don't offer basic maternity benefits.  That's just nonsensical.  Kind of like banning abortions but firing women for having kids out of wedlock.  Insane.

     

    I don't buy the 1st Amdt argument, because that's just imposing one's religious beliefs on someone else, not defending one's own beliefs.  Nobody is forcing anyone to use birth control.  (Whether some people should procreate or not is another matter entirely.)

    Even then, it would seem that a woman's choice of birth control is nobody else's business but her own (and her doctor's).

     

    [/QUOTE]

    WDYWN insists I respond to this.

    contraception is not being limited in any manner.  What is in play is whether or not you can force an employer to pay for it.

    your view of what makes sense is your view, some people have other views.  What you are sharing is not a legal view, but a moral view, one that is contested by the owners of this company.

    you seem to have a view that an employer must accept your view.  If having your employer pay for contraception is important to an employee, go work elsewhere.  Yes, it really is that simple.

     

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