Dumbest Progressive Ever

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Dumbest Progressive Ever

     

    http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/private_school_vs_public_school_only_bad_people_send_their_kids_to_private.html

     

    Might have to have a best line competition.  This is mone:

     

    You are a bad person if you send your children to private school. Not bad like murdererbad—but bad like ruining-one-of-our-nation’s-most-essential-institutions-in-order-to-get-what’s-best-for-your-kid bad. So, pretty bad.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    Might have to have a best line competition.

    Too easy, like shooting fish in a barrel.

    --

    Think for yourself, question authority.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    Shortsighted opinion on the author's part.  Private schooling has existed for generations, and while private schooling, to some extent, exposes the reality of the haves and the have nots, society itself breaks along the same lines.  Rather than having everyone go to public school, which is not going to happen, the better idea would be to improve public schools, open up opportunities for kids to attend private schools where possible, and most importantly make college more affordable for all.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

    Shortsighted opinion on the author's part.  Private schooling has existed for generations, and while private schooling, to some extent, exposes the reality of the haves and the have nots, society itself breaks along the same lines.  Rather than having everyone go to public school, which is not going to happen, the better idea would be to improve public schools, open up opportunities for kids to attend private schools where possible, and most importantly make college more affordable for all.  



    And how do we make college more affordable?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    And how do we make college more affordable?

    Ahhhh, and therein lies the rub.

     

    --

    Think for yourself, question authority.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

     

     

     

    Shortsighted opinion on the author's part.  Private schooling has existed for generations, and while private schooling, to some extent, exposes the reality of the haves and the have nots, society itself breaks along the same lines.  Rather than having everyone go to public school, which is not going to happen, the better idea would be to improve public schools, open up opportunities for kids to attend private schools where possible, and most importantly make college more affordable for all.  

     

     



    And how do we make college more affordable?

     

     

     



    Well for one, the rates charged have outpaced inflation for years and there is no evidence that increase in fees for colleges have anything to do with increasing quality of the education being delivered.  

     

    That said, there numerous approaches schools could take to reduce costs.   Off the top of my head here are some common sense ideas: expansion of programs for degrees that decrease overhead by creating more correspondence and internet available classes and charging less for that coursework, accepting more credits for basic requirements from community colleges which would allow kids to pay a fraction of the cost to get through general requirements that don't fall within their major or concentration of study, offering more summer classes that tend to cost significantly less to incoming students thereby allowing the student to get ahead on credits which could get them towards graduation in 3 years instead of four - eliminating the need for an entire year of tuition, getting rid of on campus living requirements for 1st and second year students so that students can commute to school and avoid room and board fees (which at some schools are outrageous).  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    Well for one, the rates charged have outpaced inflation for years and there is no evidence that increase in fees for colleges have anything to do with increasing quality of the education being delivered.

    Agreed. The vast influx of money into the colleges via government subsidy has allowed them to raise their prices while spending their windfalls on incredible salaries for the upper echelon administrators, hiring staff that don't directly contrubute to the education process, and focusing on new degree programs that don't translate real jobs in the real world.

    It's a bubble that will burst, probably sooner rather than later.

     

    --

    Think for yourself, question authority.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    expansion of programs for degrees that decrease overhead by creating more correspondence and internet available classes and charging less for that coursework,

     

    So no actual teacher for those courses? No classroom discussions? No real testing since one just has to look through notes/books for answers? Eh

     

    accepting more credits for basic requirements from community colleges which would allow kids to pay a fraction of the cost to get through general requirements that don't fall within their major or concentration of study

     

    State schools already do this. If you're referring to places like say Harvard, that they should accept more credits from say Mass Bay Community college? Not quite equivalent

     

    offering more summer classes that tend to cost significantly less to incoming students thereby allowing the student to get ahead on credits which could get them towards graduation in 3 years instead of four

     

    Not sure what you're talking about...there are tons of courses offered during summer. I took advantage of this while I was in college. 

     

    getting rid of on campus living requirements for 1st and second year students so that students can commute to school and avoid room and board fees 

    Never heard of schools that require students who happen to live near the school to live on campus. Let's see...I have friends who commuted to BC, Bentley, BU, and Tufts. None of them were required to live on campus. How "rampant" is this requirement?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    Yet another great line:

    I believe in public education, but my district school really isn’t good! you might say. I understand. You want the best for your child, but your child doesn’t need it. If you can afford private school (even if affording means scrimping and saving, or taking out loans), chances are that your spawn will be perfectly fine at a crappy public school.

     

    Progressives want what's not best for your children! In their own words!

    Amazing. Sacrifice your children on the altar of public education.  That's what progressives have in store for you.

    So, why should we think they will be any different when they finally get their mitts on healthcare, I.e. single payer?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

     

    So no actual teacher for those courses? No classroom discussions? No real testing since one just has to look through notes/books for answers? Eh


    Some courses may not require extensive classroom instruction, especially since lectures can be delivered via the internet.  There is no substantial difference in hearing a lecture via your computer and being there in person, techology exists that allow for interactive discussions, we use it all the time in the business world.  And remote classrooms have testing and it can be done via secure channels online.  I am not suggesting this for every course, but there are easy classes and general requirements that could certainly be done this way without much issue.  The issues you raise are not actual problems, programs exist that do what I have described already.  I have seen these methods employed at Suffolk for graduate level classes, at Harvard, MIT, and scores of other schools.

     

    [QUOTE]State schools already do this. If you're referring to places like say Harvard, that they should accept more credits from say Mass Bay Community college? Not quite equivalent[/QUOTE]

    Yes many schools do, but the standards vary and often times students get the run around when trying to transfer credits or find certain coursework won't be accepted.  If there were basic standards in place to address the transfer issue then the coursework a student takes could transfer nearly anywhere, but that isn't the case now, not by a long shot and in the end the student suffers.  I am not suggesting this be a universal requirement, and certainly private colleges may be have higher standards but then again, most kids going to community college aren't going to transfer to Harvard, so its not an issue of significance.  But for state schools, where most college kids are enrolled, uniform standards with respect to community college courses and their acceptability could save families 10's of thousands of dollars.

     

    [QUOTE]Not sure what you're talking about...there are tons of courses offered during summer. I took advantage of this while I was in college. [/QUOTE]

    There are, and what I am suggesting is pushing the availability so that students can opt in for more of those courses at a fraction of the cost.  Most of the summer coursework at schools represents a sliver of the regular year offerings and so for kids looking to get rid of electives its great, but maybe not so much for a kid trying to knock out some major requirements.  Again, these are just suggestions for cutting costs and as someone who took advantage of summer classes while an undergrad there is tremendous value there, I would have taken more in the summer if more courses were offered.  

     

    [QUOTE]Never heard of schools that require students who happen to live near the school to live on campus. Let's see...I have friends who commuted to BC, Bentley, BU, and Tufts. None of them were required to live on campus. How "rampant" is this requirement?[/QUOTE]

    I went to Tufts, and it was a requirement that non commuter Freshman live on campus, and only freshmen were certain to get housing.  Many schools have this requirement, and it makes sense in terms of integrating new students into the school, but unless a student classifies themself as a "commuter student" often times they will have to live on campus for a year or two.  If that has changed radically since I graduated in 2000 then thats great, its a trend that should continue because often times the cost of living on campus, with a meal plan is wildly out of whack with what a person could pay to rent an an apartment and their own food.  Local students shouldn't be the only ones to benefit from not having to live on campus.  

    Look, if your intent to pick apart what I am saying for the sake of argument, then have it at. I am not claiming any of the above is a cure all, and certainly many schools have embraced online classes, have extensive summer offerings, and are working on ways to make the experience more cost effective for students.  The problem is there are thousands of universities and the issues I described are widespread so for every school that is ahead of the curve there are 10 more that are not.  


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]So no actual teacher for those courses? No classroom discussions? No real testing since one just has to look through notes/books for answers? Eh

     


    Some courses may not require extensive classroom instruction, especially since lectures can be delivered via the internet.  There is no substantial difference in hearing a lecture via your computer and being there in person, techology exists that allow for interactive discussions, we use it all the time in the business world.  And remote classrooms have testing and it can be done via secure channels online.  I am not suggesting this for every course, but there are easy classes and general requirements that could certainly be done this way without much issue.  The issues you raise are not actual problems, programs exist that do what I have described already.  I have seen these methods employed at Suffolk for graduate level classes, at Harvard, MIT, and scores of other schools.

     

     

    [QUOTE]State schools already do this. If you're referring to places like say Harvard, that they should accept more credits from say Mass Bay Community college? Not quite equivalent[/QUOTE]

     

    Yes many schools do, but the standards vary and often times students get the run around when trying to transfer credits or find certain coursework won't be accepted.  If there were basic standards in place to address the transfer issue then the coursework a student takes could transfer nearly anywhere, but that isn't the case now, not by a long shot and in the end the student suffers.  I am not suggesting this be a universal requirement, and certainly private colleges may be have higher standards but then again, most kids going to community college aren't going to transfer to Harvard, so its not an issue of significance.  But for state schools, where most college kids are enrolled, uniform standards with respect to community college courses and their acceptability could save families 10's of thousands of dollars.

     

     

    [QUOTE]Not sure what you're talking about...there are tons of courses offered during summer. I took advantage of this while I was in college. [/QUOTE]

     

    There are, and what I am suggesting is pushing the availability so that students can opt in for more of those courses at a fraction of the cost.  Most of the summer coursework at schools represents a sliver of the regular year offerings and so for kids looking to get rid of electives its great, but maybe not so much for a kid trying to knock out some major requirements.  Again, these are just suggestions for cutting costs and as someone who took advantage of summer classes while an undergrad there is tremendous value there, I would have taken more in the summer if more courses were offered.  

     

     

    [QUOTE]Never heard of schools that require students who happen to live near the school to live on campus. Let's see...I have friends who commuted to BC, Bentley, BU, and Tufts. None of them were required to live on campus. How "rampant" is this requirement?[/QUOTE]

     

    I went to Tufts, and it was a requirement that non commuter Freshman live on campus, and only freshmen were certain to get housing.  Many schools have this requirement, and it makes sense in terms of integrating new students into the school, but unless a student classifies themself as a "commuter student" often times they will have to live on campus for a year or two.  If that has changed radically since I graduated in 2000 then thats great, its a trend that should continue because often times the cost of living on campus, with a meal plan is wildly out of whack with what a person could pay to rent an an apartment and their own food.  Local students shouldn't be the only ones to benefit from not having to live on campus.  

    Look, if your intent to pick apart what I am saying for the sake of argument, then have it at. I am not claiming any of the above is a cure all, and certainly many schools have embraced online classes, have extensive summer offerings, and are working on ways to make the experience more cost effective for students.  The problem is there are thousands of universities and the issues I described are widespread so for every school that is ahead of the curve there are 10 more that are not.  


    [/QUOTE]

    I went to Tufts, and it was a requirement that non commuter Freshman live on campus


    Ah but wait...you said schools shouldn't make 1st and 2nd year students live on campus so they can COMMUTE to school to avoid room fees. You're now talking about something different. Non commuters are people who come from out of state or say from western MA, for example, and therefore would HAVE to live at a school like Tufts. So these students are paying for housing and food one way or the other...either through the school or a landlord. 

    Funny how you're getting pi55y at me "picking apart" your posts. Isn't that what 99.99% of people do on BDC and any other venue with debate? You propose something and if I see holes in it I talk about it. That's what debate is. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    Yet another great line:

    I believe in public education, but my district school really isn’t good! you might say. I understand. You want the best for your child, but your child doesn’t need it. If you can afford private school (even if affording means scrimping and saving, or taking out loans), chances are that your spawn will be perfectly fine at a crappy public school.

     

    Progressives want what's not best for your children! In their own words!

    Amazing. Sacrifice your children on the altar of public education.  That's what progressives have in store for you.

    So, why should we think they will be any different when they finally get their mitts on healthcare, I.e. single payer?



    You take one idiot's opinion and with a broad stroke apply it to all "progressives". What makes that idiot a 'progressive"?

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Yet another great line:

    I believe in public education, but my district school really isn’t good! you might say. I understand. You want the best for your child, but your child doesn’t need it. If you can afford private school (even if affording means scrimping and saving, or taking out loans), chances are that your spawn will be perfectly fine at a crappy public school.

     

    Progressives want what's not best for your children! In their own words!

    Amazing. Sacrifice your children on the altar of public education.  That's what progressives have in store for you.

    So, why should we think they will be any different when they finally get their mitts on healthcare, I.e. single payer?

     



    You take one idiot's opinion and with a broad stroke apply it to all "progressives". What makes that idiot a 'progressive"?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Broad strokes seem to be a-ok when A_Concerned_Citizen does it though.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    I think she's using the "you're a bad person" rhetoric for shock value, but if you set it aside she does have a valid point.

    If you live in a community and you don't like the public education for that community, you can either enroll your child in a private school or spend the money you would have spent on private school to help improve your local public school.  The former path helps your child.  The latter helps your child, your neighbor's child, your community, your state and the country.  

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to slomag's comment:

    I think she's using the "you're a bad person" rhetoric for shock value, but if you set it aside she does have a valid point.

    If you live in a community and you don't like the public education for that community, you can either enroll your child in a private school or spend the money you would have spent on private school to help improve your local public school.  The former path helps your child.  The latter helps your child, your neighbor's child, your community, your state and the country.  



    So people should spend thousands of their money (that they would have spent on private schooling) on TOP of their tax dollars that are going to that public school? You're kidding right?

    I assume you and your spouse volunteer at your kids school? Help with tutoring? Help buy supplies for the teachers? After all it helps your child, your neighbor's child, your community, your state and the country.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

     


    Ah but wait...you said schools shouldn't make 1st and 2nd year students live on campus so they can COMMUTE to school to avoid room fees. You're now talking about something different. Non commuters are people who come from out of state or say from western MA, for example, and therefore would HAVE to live at a school like Tufts. So these students are paying for housing and food one way or the other...either through the school or a landlord. 

    Funny how you're getting pi55y at me "picking apart" your posts. Isn't that what 99.99% of people do on BDC and any other venue with debate? You propose something and if I see holes in it I talk about it. That's what debate is. 

     



     

    I am offerring up ideas, for the sake of discussion, off the top of my head, and I don't think I need to defend them as though it is a thesis, thats all.  These are very basic ideas, maybe some work, maybe they don't.  I know this, unless someone compels change then the cost of higher education will continue to trend upward saddling young people with morgage sized debt, before most hit the age of 21 or 22.  If that isn't a problem that needs to be adressed then I guess don't know what qualifies as a problem.  

    As for the commuter non commuter, I am not talking about different things, I am talking about the ability of any student to to opt out of on campus living.  For example, some student from outside the area may find that renting an apt and splitting rent with a few roommates is much cheaper than on campus housing.  However, if there are mandatory on campus living requirements, that student cannot do that therefore they get roped into paying for an aspect of the education that has nothing to do with the actual education.  In reality most students are going to want to live on campus, but for those trying to save a buck , which can result in having to take out less loans, it could be an option worth persuing.  Lets not get caught up in the particulars here, I am just throwing some ideas out there to stimulate discussion, not outling a detailed proposal worthy of consideration by the highest echelons of university administrations.  The question was asked "how do we reduce the cost the education" and I presented some ideas that have merit, have been tried, currently exist, or should be considered.  There is nothing radical about what I have written. (I am not saying that you are claiming otherwise)  I was merely answering a questions that the orginal poster took 5 seconds to come up with, with responses that I feel make sense.    

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I think she's using the "you're a bad person" rhetoric for shock value, but if you set it aside she does have a valid point.

    If you live in a community and you don't like the public education for that community, you can either enroll your child in a private school or spend the money you would have spent on private school to help improve your local public school.  The former path helps your child.  The latter helps your child, your neighbor's child, your community, your state and the country.  

     



    So people should spend thousands of their money (that they would have spent on private schooling) on TOP of their tax dollars that are going to that public school? You're kidding right?

     

    I assume you and your spouse volunteer at your kids school? Help with tutoring? Help buy supplies for the teachers? After all it helps your child, your neighbor's child, your community, your state and the country.

    [/QUOTE]

    My wife does - I'm too busy with my message boards :)  

    I'm not telling anybody what they should do - the author is.  And she's talking to liberals, so it is a bit of a hipocrisy angle.

    But nothing increases property values faster than school reputation.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    Funny how you're getting pi55y at me "picking apart" your posts. Isn't that what 99.99% of people do on BDC and any other venue with debate? You propose something and if I see holes in it I talk about it. That's what debate is. 



    Actually, I was being a little prickly about your responses to my posts, I will own that and say my bad for being a bit dickish.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Funny how you're getting pi55y at me "picking apart" your posts. Isn't that what 99.99% of people do on BDC and any other venue with debate? You propose something and if I see holes in it I talk about it. That's what debate is. 

     



    Actually, I was being a little prickly about your responses to my posts, I will own that and say my bad for being a bit dickish.  

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Eh no worries. It's all good. We're all guilty of doing this.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Yet another great line:

    I believe in public education, but my district school really isn’t good! you might say. I understand. You want the best for your child, but your child doesn’t need it. If you can afford private school (even if affording means scrimping and saving, or taking out loans), chances are that your spawn will be perfectly fine at a crappy public school.

     

    Progressives want what's not best for your children! In their own words!

    Amazing. Sacrifice your children on the altar of public education.  That's what progressives have in store for you.

    So, why should we think they will be any different when they finally get their mitts on healthcare, I.e. single payer?

     



    You take one idiot's opinion and with a broad stroke apply it to all "progressives". What makes that idiot a 'progressive"?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Progressive is as progressive does.

    i guess you'll think twice about posting som buzz are event and attributing it to all conservatives. That's a standard M.O. Here.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    In response to slomag's comment:

    I think she's using the "you're a bad person" rhetoric for shock value, but if you set it aside she does have a valid point.

    If you live in a community and you don't like the public education for that community, you can either enroll your child in a private school or spend the money you would have spent on private school to help improve your local public school.  The former path helps your child.  The latter helps your child, your neighbor's child, your community, your state and the country.  



    Wrong. Obviously wrong. thisis the typical liberal hubris. sacrifice for the teachers union, er, I mean the common good.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Dumbest Progressive Ever

    It gets even better.  The husband wrote a similar article:

    http://gawker.com/5943005/theres-a-simple-solution-to-the-public-schools-crisis

     

    AND, guess what? They send their child to a PRIVATE pre-school.

     

    Just more "we know what's best for the people" elitist nonsense.

     

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