if you can't win fair &square

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dcr400m. Show dcr400m's posts

    if you can't win fair &square

    ......Change the rules, the districts, and the electoral vote count

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/19/republicans-want-to-change-laws-on-electoral-college-votes-after-presidential/

    What makes it so blatantly disgusting is that the head of the RNC is leading/endorsing he effort. Right now it's the main battleground states: MI, VA, FL, OH, NC, and WI that are hot to do it because of complete GOP control.

    VA has been even more underhanded by taking an extra step of building an extreme, agressive re-districting plan outside of the normal cycle to arrange a guaranteed GOP coup 

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-politics/va-republicans-move-on-redistricting-draws-criticism/2013/01/22/f7645ee8-64b9-11e2-9e1b-07db1d2ccd5b_story.html

    This was done intentionally when a normally tied senate was missing an attendee to the inauguration - passing 20-19, if it had been a tie the Lt Governor was not inclined to break the tie for the plan so the secret plan was created 2 weeks ago and passed without public debate nor public input - disgusting again!

    Now on BDC, the conservatives and alleged moderate cried loudly about secrets, backdoor deals, etc regarding legislation they hated. Will they agree with the cheating going on or look the other way?

    This also doesn't include efforts to change voter id laws - despite the facts that there have been no major outbreak of cases of fraud except for GOP violators so far. We know they thought the efforts in OH were OK so we know they don't mind changing the rules in midstream.

     

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to GreginMeffa's comment:

    Oh, you mean likeif the governor is a republican, take away his power to appoint interim congressmen, and when he's a dem, give it back?  Something like that?




    BOOM, the morons who think one side is crooked and the other is not are completely clueless on the political reality; or even that one side is more crooked or one side is looking out for the people more.

    The reality is Washington is so established in unethical selfish behavior, and desire for power and money that even when new blood goes in with pure intentions they either conform to the establishments culture or they are minimized or ruined!

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    BOOM, the morons who think one side is crooked and the other is not are completely clueless on the political reality

    Who thinks that?

    I think the real trouble lies with people, who not always but tend here to be of one political persuasion, that respond to posts about "X person / X party did ABC that is wrong" with "oh yeah? Well YOUR guy did THIS".


    As if two wrongs make a right, or at least, the fact of a prior wrong somewhere in spacetime on one's own side immunizes the bad guy on the other side from comment.

    (Or, as if the fact of a prior wrong somewhere in spacetime on one's own side means that before one criticizes something on the other side, one is obligated by magic internets rules to post a list of all bad like things on one's own side). 

    I think we all know what I'm talking about, even if flat denials come out in response.




    I almost completely agree! The only thing I see different is that people chose "sides" when the political parties we have know are both so corrupt and disingenuous that it's more like one. People have different ideologies and each politician with an (R) after his name spews what his base wants to hear and each politician with a (D) after his name does the same for his base. While in reality they are just part of the establishment bent on building their own power and influence on the backs of the actual people.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    The facts are pretty clear...

    If not for re-districting (it's not ALL blatant enough to be "gerrymandering") at the state house-level, the republicans might have lost their minority in the house.  Of course, we'll never know for sure.  And as it was, they lost the popular vote by millions.

    Some could interpret such results as indicating the GOP lost the battle of ideas...and no amount of kvetching about the media, the "47%", or various other right-wing shibboleths can really dispute that.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    The facts are pretty clear...

    If not for re-districting (it's not ALL blatant enough to be "gerrymandering") at the state house-level, the republicans might have lost their minority in the house.  Of course, we'll never know for sure.  And as it was, they lost the popular vote by millions.

    Some could interpret such results as indicating the GOP lost the battle of ideas...and no amount of kvetching about the media, the "47%", or various other right-wing shibboleths can really dispute that. 



    You could look at that way or it could have been something as simple as it was a Democrat incumbant POTUS and more dems turned out to vote but, even with that Repubs were able to maintain control of the house.

     

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    The facts are pretty clear...

    If not for re-districting (it's not ALL blatant enough to be "gerrymandering") at the state house-level, the republicans might have lost their minority in the house.  Of course, we'll never know for sure.  And as it was, they lost the popular vote by millions.

    Some could interpret such results as indicating the GOP lost the battle of ideas...and no amount of kvetching about the media, the "47%", or various other right-wing shibboleths can really dispute that. 

     



    You could look at that way or it could have been something as simple as it was a Democrat incumbant POTUS and more dems turned out to vote but, even with that Repubs were able to maintain control of the house.

     

     



    The two notions are not mutually exclusive.  More dems turning out in dem-leaning districts may have affected the overall count without denting the closely held districts.

    I realize the dems do this, too, but the urban-rural divide kind of does it for them.  They also don't have nearly the clout in the state houses to match the repubs.

    And yet, I didn't even mention the concerted efforts at the state-level to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters.

    If one takes the rightward pundits at their word, those spurned voters would have likely broke toward POTUS and the dems by a wide margin.  But again, we'll never know.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    I realize the dems do this, too, but the urban-rural divide kind of does it for them.  They also don't have nearly the clout in the state houses to match the repubs.

    If one takes the rightward pundits at their word, those spurned voters would have likely broke toward POTUS and the dems by a wide margin.  But again, we'll never know. 

    Who is "they"?

    Hundred of thousands disenfranchised? Any proof of that?

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    I realize the dems do this, too, but the urban-rural divide kind of does it for them.  They also don't have nearly the clout in the state houses to match the repubs.

    If one takes the rightward pundits at their word, those spurned voters would have likely broke toward POTUS and the dems by a wide margin.  But again, we'll never know. 

     

     

    Who is "they"?

    Hundred of thousands disenfranchised? Any proof of that?

     



    "they" = state-level dems

    Part of the proof is the turnout; part is the long lines which undoubtably turned some people away; part are the business owners who threatened their workers and told them how to vote; and yes, part is the concerted efforts to prevent people from voting.  Voter ID laws also overwhelmingly affect minorities; this is indisputable.

    The dems clearly had the registration/turnout edge.  If the repubs had spent more time recruiting for their cause instead of vilifying certain communities en masse, they might have won.

    I'll also add that both sides do a really good job of demonstrating to some people how worthless their votes really are; it might be the only thing both sides do well. 

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    "they" = state-level dems

    Part of the proof is the turnout; part is the long lines which undoubtably turned some people away; part are the business owners who threatened their workers and told them how to vote; and yes, part is the concerted efforts to prevent people from voting.  Voter ID laws also overwhelmingly affect minorities; this is indisputable.

    The dems clearly had the registration/turnout edge.  If the repubs had spent more time recruiting for their cause instead of vilifying certain communities en masse, they might have won.

    I'll also add that both sides do a really good job of demonstrating to some people how worthless their votes really are; it might be the only thing both sides do well.  

    [/QUOTE]


    Long lines is not disenfranchising! geez!

    If ,you dont care enough to wait in line; (I waited about 2 hours) then it's not the lines fault!

    Business owners threatening? any evidence of this and evidence it is done more by one ideology?

    Saying shlt does not make it true

     

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    "they" = state-level dems

    Part of the proof is the turnout; part is the long lines which undoubtably turned some people away; part are the business owners who threatened their workers and told them how to vote; and yes, part is the concerted efforts to prevent people from voting.  Voter ID laws also overwhelmingly affect minorities; this is indisputable.

    The dems clearly had the registration/turnout edge.  If the repubs had spent more time recruiting for their cause instead of vilifying certain communities en masse, they might have won.

    I'll also add that both sides do a really good job of demonstrating to some people how worthless their votes really are; it might be the only thing both sides do well.  




    Long lines is not disenfranchising! geez!

    If ,you dont care enough to wait in line; (I waited about 2 hours) then it's not the lines fault!

    [/QUOTE]

    It absolutely is disenfranchisement if even a single person is turned away, regardless of the reason.

    Honestly, I think it's appalling you had to wait two hours.  Credit to you for staying, but not everyone has that luxury and, point-of-fact, a lot of people just don't.  I waited about 5 minutes.  It took longer to walk the three blocks to my polling station.  So, how is that fair?

    If the local/municipal/regional election authorities cannot get it together enough to properly estimate turnout, number of ballots needed, space needed...whatever...then they need to find another line of work.  In any case, there is NO justification whatsoever for making it HARDER to vote on purpose.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    It absolutely is disenfranchisement if even a single person is turned away, regardless of the reason.

    Honestly, I think it's appalling you had to wait two hours.  Credit to you for staying, but not everyone has that luxury and, point-of-fact, a lot of people just don't.  I waited about 5 minutes.  It took longer to walk the three blocks to my polling station.  So, how is that fair?

    If the local/municipal/regional election authorities cannot get it together enough to properly estimate turnout, number of ballots needed, space needed...whatever...then they need to find another line of work.  In any case, there is NO justification whatsoever for making it HARDER to vote on purpose. 




    BS! If you cant wait in line or are unsure take advantage of early voting available to everyone!!

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to GreginMeffa's comment:

    part are the business owners who threatened their workers and told them how to vote; and yes, part is the concerted efforts to prevent people from voting.

    >>>But unions doing the same is far more prevelent, and just hunk dory

     Voter ID laws also overwhelmingly affect minorities; this is indisputable.

    >>>Why?



    Unions threaten to fire people for not voting how they want?  Really?!  (Have you seen the union numbers in recent years? Historically miniscule. Unions don't have that kind of clout any more.)

    Voter ID laws are: 1) equivalent to a poll tax, 2) useless at their stated goal of eliminating  voter fraud (which barely exists anyway), 3) affect predominantly young, poor, elderly and minority voters who either don't drive, don't have photo ID (up to 11% of eligible voters) or don't have the time or proper documents required to get said ID - even if the state ID is free, the documents may not be.

     

     

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    Unions threaten to fire people for not voting how they want?  Really?!  (Have you seen the union numbers in recent years? Historically miniscule. Unions don't have that kind of clout any more.)

    Doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Successful employer pressure to vote a certain way is miniscule as well

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:

    In response to GreginMeffa's comment:

    Uhm, yes they can. Still kinda empty, all ya gotta do (due?) is say yessim boss, I done voted just like ya told me to.


    How do you fire someone that doesn't work for you?




    They fired Hoffa...sort of

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    BOOM, the morons who think one side is crooked and the other is not are completely clueless on the political reality



    Who thinks that?

     

    I think the real trouble lies with people, who not always but tend here to be of one political persuasion, that respond to posts about "X person / X party did ABC that is wrong" with "oh yeah? Well YOUR guy did THIS".


    As if two wrongs make a right, or at least, the fact of a prior wrong somewhere in spacetime on one's own side immunizes the bad guy on the other side from comment.

    (Or, as if the fact of a prior wrong somewhere in spacetime on one's own side means that before one criticizes something on the other side, one is obligated by magic internets rules to post a list of all bad like things on one's own side).

     

     

     

    I think we all know what I'm talking about, even if flat denials come out in response.



    Seems to mostly come from you.  And Sister.  And Alley.  But, don't let that slow you down.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: if you can't win fair □

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    It absolutely is disenfranchisement if even a single person is turned away, regardless of the reason.

    Honestly, I think it's appalling you had to wait two hours.  Credit to you for staying, but not everyone has that luxury and, point-of-fact, a lot of people just don't.  I waited about 5 minutes.  It took longer to walk the three blocks to my polling station.  So, how is that fair?

    If the local/municipal/regional election authorities cannot get it together enough to properly estimate turnout, number of ballots needed, space needed...whatever...then they need to find another line of work.  In any case, there is NO justification whatsoever for making it HARDER to vote on purpose. 

     




     

    BS! If you cant wait in line or are unsure take advantage of early voting available to everyone!!

     



    Early voting is NOT available to everyone.  And even some early voting is woefully inadequate for the population it purports to serve.  Both points were writ large last November. 

     

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