David staples post draft: still at it

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    David staples post draft: still at it

    So yeah, Staples draft coverage turned me into a long-time fan. His most recent article is really enjoyable, and it speaks to all of the people who wonder about Shawn Thornton's role on the bruins. It's a great read and I suggest it for anyone.

     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    It is an interesting look, OC.  There is a problem, however.  It doesn't apply to Thornton.

    "If a player is certain he will become a hunted and vulnerable target if he assaults Hall, Gagner, Paajarvi or Eberle, perhaps he'll think twice about going after them. Self-preservation is what pro hockey is all about and the Oilers need to get opposing goons and hitmen to worry about their own well-being. As Nesterenko put it: One is afraid of being hurt himself."

    Other players aren't worried about Thornton hurting them.  He'll ask first.  He'll ask again.  If his opponent is vulnerable, Thornton stops the fight and tells the refs to break it up.  If he wants to create that fear, he needs to keep swinging when Colton Orr's jersey goes over his head.  He needs to attack the other goon, not engage him.  He needs to take off his tutu and his do-se-do routine and get mad.  Until then, he's as useless as the curve on his stick.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]It is an interesting look, OC.  There is a problem, however.  It doesn't apply to Thornton. "If a player is certain he will become a hunted and vulnerable target if he assaults Hall, Gagner, Paajarvi or Eberle, perhaps he'll think twice about going after them. Self-preservation is what pro hockey is all about and the Oilers need to get opposing goons and hitmen to worry about their own well-being. As Nesterenko put it: One is afraid of being hurt himself." Other players aren't worried about Thornton hurting them.  He'll ask first.  He'll ask again.  If his opponent is vulnerable, Thornton stops the fight and tells the refs to break it up.  If he wants to create that fear, he needs to keep swinging when Colton Orr's jersey goes over his head.  He needs to attack the other goon, not engage him.  He needs to take off his tutu and his do-se-do routine and get mad.  Until then, he's as useless as the curve on his stick.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    LOL :)

    i don't have a response to that. I have more faith in him, but I'll definitely keep a close eye on how he protects Seguin this season. 

     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    What is this, 1980? There's so much wrong with that article it makes me tired just thinking about it.

    Not that there isn't a worth to someone like Thornton (who I would argue isn't a "goon," but an enforcer. There's a difference.), but the writer disregards the fact that the NHL has radically changed since the days of Gretzky and Cementhead.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    hmmm...

    Star players have been going down left and right.... 

    exactly what has changed about the NHL diunne that makes goons less-likely to prevent attacks on star players?

    Sure the bluelines have changed, the red-line is just for show, they have shoot-outs after overtime and less clutching and grabbing. But the rules of the game changing and the need to protect your star players are two different things.

    One could may argue it is more difficult for teams to have goons on their team; therefore, players are taking more liberties with star players than they would have otherwise. 
     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    Shawn Thorton fits into that tweener catagory. Between a true enforcer and a regular fourth line player. He plays with just enough toughness to be considered a heavyweight. He scores just enough goals to be considered a fourth line player. It depends on what day and what team he plays. That's just my thoughts. Go B's Go ! PS : i subscribe to the edmonton journal and missed the fact that staples is now covering some hockey. he was covering city stuff and life stuff. i will have to pay more attention to him....
     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]What is this, 1980? There's so much wrong with that article it makes me tired just thinking about it. Not that there isn't a worth to someone like Thornton (who I would argue isn't a "goon," but an enforcer. There's a difference.), but the writer disregards the fact that the NHL has radically changed since the days of Gretzky and Cementhead.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    What does he enforce?  Didn't stop Cooke.  Didn't stop any of the foolishness in the Dallas game.  Didn't stop Hartnell.  Didn't stop Jones.

    Savard, Bergeron, and Krejci were clobbered while Thornton was "enforcing".

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it : What does he enforce?  Didn't stop Cooke.  Didn't stop any of the foolishness in the Dallas game.  Didn't stop Hartnell.  Didn't stop Jones. Savard, Bergeron, and Krejci were clobbered while Thornton was "enforcing".
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    I think the reason it didn't stop them is because physical consequences for these types of acts are on the decline. A player can take liberties against another star player like bergeron or Hemsky because he no longer feels he's going to lose teeth at some point later in the game.

    Maybe it is that the goons are getting worse, or that it takes more than one man to adequately respond (and teams don't realize this). But I just didn't see enough heat on Matt Cooke on the ice to pay for his actions. Same with Randy Jones. someone should have taken a run at these guys every single shift.

    And that sounds crazy! What Really should happen, is the NHL should stop slapping these players on the wrist and start suspending them for multiple seasons. It shouldn't be Shawn Thornton's roll to single-handedly punish a player that just concussed your #1 center for the rest of the season. the league needs to act like the goon and set up an effective deterrent that puts these players livelihoods on the line (just like the players they hit)

     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it : I think the reason it didn't stop them is because physical consequences for these types of acts are on the decline. A player can take liberties against another star player like bergeron or Hemsky because he no longer feels he's going to lose teeth at some point later in the game. Maybe it is that the goons are getting worse, or that it takes more than one man to adequately respond (and teams don't realize this). But I just didn't see enough heat on Matt Cooke on the ice to pay for his actions. Same with Randy Jones. someone should have taken a run at these guys every single shift. And that sounds crazy! What Really should happen, is the NHL should stop slapping these players on the wrist and start suspending them for multiple seasons.
    Posted by OlsonicCreations[/QUOTE]

    Yes, they should get suspensions, which is happening (how many time did guys get suspended back in the day?), and with the new penalties (which the author seems to ignore) for hits like Cooke's and Richards' on Booth, there should and will be more.

    You really can't expect enforcers to poilce the game unless you remove the instigator rule. Guys like Thornton are hamstrung by the inability to just pound on someone who's laid an illegal hit; they're too often forced into the "let's drop the gloves" sort of staged fight. I doubt very much Thornton WANTS to fight like that - it's what he's been forced into.

    What the game desperately needs is to stop with the idiotic Wheel of Justice form of discipline that Campbell uses when these sorts of hits happen. The solution isn't to sign a Boogard for a ridiculous amount of money and send him out to pound people. The solution is to institute a justice system for flagrantly illegal hits that makes sense and is applied equally.

    And one more thing: The tendency lately to pound the crap out of someone who delivers a hard but legal hit is beyond stupid. I don't know why the hell that's happening, but that's got to stop too. The idea of someone slamming Hall cleanly into the boards and getting pounded for it by McIntyre is ludicrous, but I'm sure it'll happen.

     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    i am a thornton fan, but i have been quite disappointed by the fact the seems like he follows the code a little too closely. like NAS said it be nice if he had a little bit more of a nasty side.  the guy has got alot of heart for fighting guys alot bigger than him.  he can skate and shoot better than most enforcers and has a solid punch but what bums me out out about him is his checking, he is always missing the big hit. i know we have other good hitters, but to me having that guy that can retailate by going out there and green lighting somebody is essential.
    i know alot of you will say thats lucic job, but it too costly to have lucic in the box all the time, we need fouth liners to step up.
     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    The ridiculousness of your last line, OC, actually comes back around to the value of players policing themselves.  The NHLPA - especially under the direction of Donald Fehr! - will never accept a multiple year suspension for an intent to injure foul short of a foreign object being concealed in a player's equipment for the express purpose of attacking the opposition (anyone thinking Last Boy Scout gets two points).  They fight like hell to get 5 game suspensions for repeated and deliberate hits from behind reduced.  The problem is that the money is insane.  Mike Richards gets a full season for his hit on Booth and that's an over $6M fine.  Same act by Schecky Goonberg is only costing him $500K.

    But no player has yet successfully sued for lost wages due to someone laying down the law on the ice - though Steve Moore might yet if he stops claiming he could have been a second liner for a decade.

    I said it all through the Cooke furor - the only way to really make this work is to modify the behaviour of GMs who issue contracts to known idiots and place value on "agitators".  The way you do that is to go after the stars, not the agitators.  Cooke runs Savard, Thornton pounds Crosby, Stuart pounds Malkin, Chara pounds Staal, Lucic runs Fleury.  It wouldn't be long before Crosby's in Shero's office saying "tell me again why Matt Cooke is on the team?"  I'd love the hearing with the disciplenary colon: "Why did you attack Crosby?"  "I was agitated."
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]The ridiculousness of your last line, OC, actually comes back around to the value of players policing themselves.  The NHLPA - especially under the direction of Donald Fehr! - will never accept a multiple year suspension for an intent to injure foul short of a foreign object being concealed in a player's equipment for the express purpose of attacking the opposition (anyone thinking Last Boy Scout gets two points).  They fight like hell to get 5 game suspensions for repeated and deliberate hits from behind reduced.  The problem is that the money is insane.  Mike Richards gets a full season for his hit on Booth and that's an over $6M fine.  Same act by Schecky Goonberg is only costing him $500K. But no player has yet successfully sued for lost wages due to someone laying down the law on the ice - though Steve Moore might yet if he stops claiming he could have been a second liner for a decade. I said it all through the Cooke furor - the only way to really make this work is to modify the behaviour of GMs who issue contracts to known idiots and place value on "agitators".  The way you do that is to go after the stars, not the agitators.  Cooke runs Savard, Thornton pounds Crosby, Stuart pounds Malkin, Chara pounds Staal, Lucic runs Fleury.  It wouldn't be long before Crosby's in Shero's office saying "tell me again why Matt Cooke is on the team?"  I'd love the hearing with the disciplenary colon: "Why did you attack Crosby?"  "I was agitated."
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Oh I know what you mean, I was intentionally exaggerating to illustrate a point; that the penalties need to be more severe to act as an effective deterrent. EDIT: Actually, i wasn't even exaggerating that much. I'm speaking from the perspective of an idealist. Of course the NHLPA would have a problem, but that's not what concerns me, I'm not the commish.

    I agree with most of what you said, There is no beating that Cooke could take that would equal losing Savard for the playoff run. The only person that could make up for it is crosby or malkin.

    But then it gets into a rediculous situation where you are trying to hurt players, star players, that don't deserve it. It's bad for the game. In my opinion, the NHL wouldn't drop a fraction of a percentage in the ratings if Randy Jones was banned for life.

    No one cares about the Matt Cookes and the Randy Jones of the world, suspend them for serious amounts of time. Take away their right to play the game.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from OlsonicCreations. Show OlsonicCreations's posts

    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it : Yes, they should get suspensions, which is happening (how many time did guys get suspended back in the day?), and with the new penalties (which the author seems to ignore) for hits like Cooke's and Richards' on Booth, there should and will be more. You really can't expect enforcers to poilce the game unless you remove the instigator rule. Guys like Thornton are hamstrung by the inability to just pound on someone who's laid an illegal hit; they're too often forced into the "let's drop the gloves" sort of staged fight. I doubt very much Thornton WANTS to fight like that - it's what he's been forced into. What the game desperately needs is to stop with the idiotic Wheel of Justice form of discipline that Campbell uses when these sorts of hits happen. The solution isn't to sign a Boogard for a ridiculous amount of money and send him out to pound people. The solution is to institute a justice system for flagrantly illegal hits that makes sense and is applied equally. And one more thing: The tendency lately to pound the crap out of someone who delivers a hard but legal hit is beyond stupid. I don't know why the hell that's happening, but that's got to stop too. The idea of someone slamming Hall cleanly into the boards and getting pounded for it by McIntyre is ludicrous, but I'm sure it'll happen.
    Posted by duinne[/QUOTE]

    I mean, I certainly agree with you, but until the NHL gets it's head out of it's behind, we're stuck with the tools we have at the moment. That's the point of the article.

    and yeah, fighting for clean hits, now THAT should carry an instigator add-on. Not someone coming into protect his teammate after an opponent hit him from behind or something.


     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    we all know what it was like to get "clocked" and then took a number. No fight ensued, but a hard check sometime usually followed. In those not so distant days most guys, on the ice, took care of extra hits and there were no extra or instagator penalties. With the advent of helmets, cages, and composite sticks, things and action has changed. Helmets are beneficial when we remember Ted Green. Sticks up around the eyeballs are not Ok and should be squashed vigorously by NHL penalties.Slap shots with composites used like sling shots should be outlawed. They are causing more damage to every player near the net. Slap on a 4 minute penalty and they would soon depart in favor of quick and more accurate wrist shots. As far as  fights, let them be , without the instigator, as long as they evolve from the play and include only the players who started the action. Even clean hits can evoke an angry response, so let them fight. Staged fights should be major penalties[ weeks or months]. So, crack down on high sticks; ban the sling shot slapper; eliminate instigator and staged goons.
     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

      I think if the league wanted to make a serious case against players who use reckless abandon to injure star players that the NHL should force players like Cooke to sit out for 'as many' if not More games than the player they injure has to miss.  
     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    As long as Colin Campbell is on the job allowing players like Cooke to intentionally stalk and hurt players in the NHL there will always be a need for a Thornton or a Colton Orr.


    It should be a three man committee an ex-player, an ex-ref and an ex coach/GM that doles out the punishment in the NHL not an attorney who doesn't get it.

     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    2 Points though, the oil have the cap room, he will probably suite up most nights as an extra player and not take a regular shift (goon)..

    That being said, NAS is right on with thornton, he is willing to fight, but hes not in the same league as Macintyre.. 6'6 250lbs is alot scarier then 6'2 215lbs..

     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it : What does he enforce?  Didn't stop Cooke.  Didn't stop any of the foolishness in the Dallas game.  Didn't stop Hartnell.  Didn't stop Jones. Savard, Bergeron, and Krejci were clobbered while Thornton was "enforcing".
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    You're right -no doubt about it, and there are many more examples. The real question then becomes why wasn't it dealt with. And there are others on this team beside Thornton who could protect the Savards of the world. The only reason I keep coming up with is - that they're just doing what they're told.
    I still can't believe that Carcillo actually thru punches at Savard, without paying a price ???
     
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    Re: David staples post draft: still at it

    In Response to Re: David staples post draft: still at it:
    [QUOTE]It is an interesting look, OC.  There is a problem, however.  It doesn't apply to Thornton. "If a player is certain he will become a hunted and vulnerable target if he assaults Hall, Gagner, Paajarvi or Eberle, perhaps he'll think twice about going after them. Self-preservation is what pro hockey is all about and the Oilers need to get opposing goons and hitmen to worry about their own well-being. As Nesterenko put it: One is afraid of being hurt himself." Other players aren't worried about Thornton hurting them.  He'll ask first.  He'll ask again.  If his opponent is vulnerable, Thornton stops the fight and tells the refs to break it up.  If he wants to create that fear, he needs to keep swinging when Colton Orr's jersey goes over his head.  He needs to attack the other goon, not engage him.  He needs to take off his tutu and his do-se-do routine and get mad.  Until then, he's as useless as the curve on his stick.
    Posted by Not-A-Shot[/QUOTE]

    Great line NAS, love it! Seriously!

     

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