CJ and Seguin

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheatskins. Show Wheatskins's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    People, Seguin will be alright. He's going through a tough time right now, but that's how he'll learn.

    In 2007-08, Seguin played with the Toronto Young Nats and Jeff Skinner was his winger. They tore up the league. Those two were the class of the league.

    Jeff Skinner is in a little better situation in Carolina and consequently is getting more ice time. He is doing just fine, although the past three games or so he has stalled, somewhat. Seguin will not let Skinner get to far ahead of him - it's personal. There is a very healthy competition between the two.

    I have heard that the original Boston draft plan was to draft both Seguin and Skinner, and when it became apparent that Skinner wouldn't be available with the 15th pick PC started looking at other avenues that led him to Nathan Horton.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin : I'm not looking to promote Seguin as much as provide him opportunity for growth.  10 minutes a game is trash.  He should be getting at least 13 to 14 every night.  If you look at the top rookie point scorers (lets say top 10) he is getting less time then most of those players...and yes some of them are on good teams.  I do think he has defensive lapses and he does need to learn the responsibilities of the position, I'm just not sure that CJ knows the best way to foster that growth.  Benching him every time he makes a mistake is not teaching. 
    Posted by TuukkainNet[/QUOTE]

    Seguin is presently averaging 13:02 a game.

    Seguin is tied for 10th for forwards.  Only one player above him, Logan Couture, is on a good team and averaging more ice time.  (I'm discounting Pittsburgh's Letestu because he's 25 years old.)

    Feel free to see for yourself at NHL.COM/STATS


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TuukkainNet. Show TuukkainNet's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    1Jeff SkinnerCARC176915-42100 04413.616:3321.328.6
    2Jordan EberleEDMR164711-34020 03312.118:0824.444.4
    3Tyler EnnisBUFL18461056000 03910.315:3018.80.0
    4Logan CoutureSJSC15639511203 05411.117:1422.852.6
    5Mark LetestuPITC1845906202 04010.015:0917.752.9
    6John CarlsonWSHD17279726001 0258.021:3425.90.0
    7Kyle WilsonCBJC1043718000 01723.512:4217.347.4
    8Taylor HallEDML16347-74100 0358.616:4821.257.1
    9Bryan BickellCHIL1634717100 02213.612:3316.0100.0
    10Derek StepanNYRC1734712001 02512.014:0616.841.2
    11P.K. SubbanMTLD17167514100 0482.121:0726.20.0
    12Jake DowellCHIC19336219000 02313.011:5016.948.4
    13Tyler SeguinBOSC14336-26100 02412.513:0216.347.2
    14Brad MarchandBOSC14246310010 01910.512:1817.333.3
    15Alexander BurmistrovATLC17246212000 0258.014:2119.340.1
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TuukkainNet. Show TuukkainNet's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    I was looking at this before I started the thread....Seguins ice time has depreciated as the season has gone on.....10min last game...8 min two games ago.  Notice the other forwards...Skinner 16.5
         Ennis    15.5
         Couture  17+
         Letestu   15
    I'm no saying he should get 20 or even 16....just think it should one or two more shifts.....14 minutes.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Ya know what?  Blaming CJ for Seguins up & down situation this season is bogus! Defense has to be learned. You can teach defense. You cannot teach offense when it comes to doing things with the puck. The move Tyler made against the Scabs the other night. That's gifted, you can't be taught how to do those things. A lot of players like Yzerman, Modanno & Hull didn't learn to play proper defense until later in their careers. I don't always like CJ for his system, because he doesn't change it enough during the game. I do like that he's putting Seguin on the PP & has him playing 3 or 4th line right now because he's only a -2. Hall is a -7 & he's playing close to top line minutes. Renny is pretty much just letting these young kids go. It shows that because they got blown out again today. 8-2. So I'm sure Eberle & Hall's +- is even worse. I think Seguin is exactly where he should be. Learning how you can't always stick handle out of the zone, how you have to learn to read the play faster. The 3 & 4th line is perfect.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teddytheo. Show Teddytheo's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    It's not only ice time that differentiates Skinner and Seguin. Skinner plays on Carolina's top line I think also. I notice a lot of his points corresponds with points for Eric Staal as well. Seguin on the other hand, plays on the 3rd line, and with guys who don't have great offensive skills.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RMiller87. Show RMiller87's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]What do you guys think about the Bruins having Seguin play in the World Jr tournament? While it seems like a step backward, that tournament is an excellent forum for player development and he didn't make the Canadian team last year. Could be a smart short and long term move by the Bruins if his play doesn't improve significantly in the next few weeks.
    Posted by GillesGilbert[/QUOTE]

    How's this a step backwards ?

    Playing against the best 18 year hockey players in the World would help Seguin's development more than playing 4th line minutes with a goon and a never will be.

    But moronic Booin fans won't figure this out -- they didn't let Joe Thornton play in the WJC, and they won't likely let Seguin do it either.

    Otherwise, there will be a few helping heapings of crow for several posters here to eat.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigbadbruinsfan. Show bigbadbruinsfan's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Claude is terrible bringing along a guy like seguin, he only deals with muckers and cyclers.  If you actually posses skill in open ice, this coach has no use for you.  Keep grinding out the defense Claude.  Can we please get rid of him already???
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from scooter244. Show scooter244's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]What do you guys think about the Bruins having Seguin play in the World Jr tournament? While it seems like a step backward, that tournament is an excellent forum for player development and he didn't make the Canadian team last year. Could be a smart short and long term move by the Bruins if his play doesn't improve significantly in the next few weeks.
    Posted by GillesGilbert[/QUOTE]

    I think this is a great idea.  Provided we can spare him, and with his role right now we certainly could.  That kind of experience is huge.  Seguin has never played in a "big" game.  He needs that. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    You lose with rookies playing key roles.  I think Bowman had a line about losing a game for every rookie in your lineup.  There's a reason most of the teams playing rookies for more minutes than Seguin gets are near the bottom of the league.  If you know you're going to lose a bunch anyway, you don't care if giving rookies experience costs you one or two more losses.  The Bruins care.

    Seguin was on for both Ottawa goals.  Alfredsson was his man and he lost track of him.  He lost the draw on the Karlsson goal.  This is likely to continue for a while.  If you forcefeed him minutes before he's ready, it will happen even more frequently.  Patience.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Incidentally, the yin and yang that is Hamill/Colborne on the P-Bruin roster continued over the weekend vs. Abbotsford.  Hamill had 4 assists over three games and finished +2.  Colborne had 1 assist and was -6 over three games (2 wins).

    I would take this as another remedy for the strange love we tend to have for rookies. Case in point: Wheeler is driving some to drink (more), so the answer is give time to a rookie.  Said rookie will probably make more mistakes than Wheeler and be less responsible defensively, but he'll get more slack because he's a rookie and needs ice time to develop and improve.  This slack will end abruptly once the rookie goes 20 games without scoring or takes a few bad penalties that cost the team the game (ask Brad Marchand).  Then he's bait.  Or chum, really.

    I said all summer that the Bruins needed to make these rookies earn their NHL icetime, and for the most part, the guys who stayed seem to belong even if Seguin's performance has huge ups and downs.  But the principle must continue to apply - no free rides to the second line.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    So let me get this correct.  Let the rookies play less and learn from the bench, press box or on video.  Considering the injuries at center, Campbell is the best option on the third line.  Wheeler is the second line center in that he has more defensive experience and is more aggressive this year.  These moves help the defense head man the puck out of the defensive zone.  Seguin will have sit and learn.  Is that correct BB?  

    I ask, so when Krejci, Sturm and Savard returns, Seguin, Caron, and Marchand will continue to have ten minutes or so a game.  So when do they learn?  If there are injuries like the last two playoff runs, then you have rookies who have not had a chance to have experience.  It is November! 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    No, that's not correct.  My point is that this shouldn't be a decision you make based on the crush fans get on rookies.  Everyone loooooves potential.

    So - I'm not saying "play the rookies less", I'm saying "play each rookie as much as he deserves". In general, Seguin, Caron, and Marchand all have earned the right to be here, but now they have to prove they can have a more positive impact than the players whose ice time they'd be taking away.  They need to make the most of their 12.5-13.5 min/game before you give them additional minutes.  Yes, there is an element of risk/reward here where you know Seguin isn't up to speed in his own zone, but he's improved enough that his poor defense won't offset his dyanimc offense.  Caron probably needs to improve at both ends equally to earn more ice.  Marchand needs to continue to score and create chances.

    Seguin probably needs a game or two in the press box right now because he's been more liability than asset.  And yes, you learn from the pressbox at this level, especially with an assistant coach in your ear all game.  Put him back in and, if he shows improvement, keep him in.  If he continues to improve, give him more ice.  If he starts to flounder and has another game where he's directly involved in ALL of the opposition's goals, take time away.  There's no better way to get an 18yr old's attention than to make consequences immediate and meaningful. 

    Wheeler is the second line centre because he's less likely to cause goals.  Sadly, that means two things.  Campbell is the third line centre because his line has been better at generating offense than Seguin's over the last two weeks.  The rookie who has earned more ice is Marchand.  He's playing very well and generating offense for that line.  With better passers and even marginally better finishers, his energy is more likely to translate into a positive goal differential if he's given more ice time.  I'd go so far as to say Marchand is the only rookie who has improved significantly over the season. 

    There's no doubt Seguin would be more fun to watch if he played more, and it may even be true that he'll play better if he's more "into" the game.  And yes, a little pain in the standings now is a sound investment if it means a healthy and responsible Seguin in the playoffs.  But I believe from long experience that he'll learn more and that learning will imprint on him better if he actually earns the opportunities rather than has them dropped in his lap because the Bruins aren't scoring as much as we'd all like to see.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheatskins. Show Wheatskins's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    People, like NHL rookies, learn from their mistakes.

    The less you play, the less mistakes you're going to make and the longer it will take to learn. The more you play, the more mistakes you make and the quicker you learn.

    The time to make mistakes is now, in the regular season - get it all out of your system; that way when play-off time rolls around you will have learned from your mistakes and won't repeat them.

    Did anyone expect Tyler Seguin not to make mistakes? Let him play, let him make mistakes - that's how he's going to learn. The Ottawa game Saturday did him a world of good.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jwb413. Show jwb413's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    It was said that this team was well on its way to having what it takes to win the cup. Then having the #2 pick would not put Seguin in the position of rescuing the team. Well it's evident that this team with the addition of Horton still has trouble scoring when missing Krejci. Seguin needs a little time free from defensive first mentality. Why CJ keeps Wheeler out at center on the PP is what sets me off. Seguin would be my pick way before Wheeler. No question who has more talent offensively. CJ keeps this team from achieving their full potential with moves like that.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Can we put away the platitudes about how we all learn from mistakes?  Sure, you learn from mistakes, but that doesn't mean a total f()k up learns to be a genius in a day.  It's not like mistakes are nickels you plug into a learning vending machine.  You make enough mistakes and you lose confidence, you lose focus, and you not only stop learning but you can backslide.  If you play golf, think about any round you've played where you start to mess with your mechanics because you're slicing the ball.  Pretty soon you look like All-Star game Larry Walker facing Randy Johnson.

    Here's another way to think of this: Would you give grade 3 kids a textbook and then an advanced calculus test? Lord knows they'll make plenty of mistakes on that test.  Anyone think the kids would learn calculus by making those mistakes?  Probably not.  Instead, you'd expect the system to control their learning environment.  Set curricular goals that give them the best chance to succeed in evaluations.  Remediate when they run into specific issues.  Provide additional support for problem areas.  Advance through a controlled progression.  It's the same freaking thing here.  There are mistakes you can learn from and situations that will help you learn from them, and then there are mistakes and situations that can be roadblocks and do more harm than good.

    We don't know yet if Seguin learned anything from the Ottawa game.  I mean, did he really need to learn that you can't let your man go to the far post uncovered?  He lost focus.  He flowed to the puck rather than staying with his responsibility.  That's not a mistake you learn from because you should know what will happen in that situation.  That's a prototypical mental lapse, the kind you correct with effort and concentration.

    Seguin doesn't need a little "time free".  We know he'll score some goals if he doesn't have to worry about being "defense first" - but he'll end up minus 30.  The Bruins will go from losing 2-0 and 3-1 to losing 5-3 and 7-5.  Whee.  Time learning how to play well at both ends is exactly what he needs if he's going to learn.  He needs to learn it in a cotrolled, slow progression with plenty of support so that, by March, if he has to play 18 minutes, he's well-prepared to do so and not just thrown to the lions to see what will happen.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jwb413. Show jwb413's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Seguin needs to be put into a defensive first mind set like Bergeron was put in? Seems if they go down that road they will have to win every game 2-1. Nothing wrong with that but when they lose 2-0 it shows how CJ's BS doesn't work. They will wind up taking a talent like Seguin and make him a stay home center. I know it's very early in his career but I'm not liking what CJ is doing now and just about his last 2 years in Boston.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JWensink. Show JWensink's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    Yep, let's take it slow. You need to learn the defensive system, and be careful not to make mistakes. Don't worry about your god given offensive instincts and skills. Learn the system, avoid mistakes. Try playing a round of golf with that mindset.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from I-Like-Hockey. Show I-Like-Hockey's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]People, like NHL rookies, learn from their mistakes. The less you play, the less mistakes you're going to make and the longer it will take to learn. The more you play, the more mistakes you make and the quicker you learn. The time to make mistakes is now, in the regular season - get it all out of your system; that way when play-off time rolls around you will have learned from your mistakes and won't repeat them. Did anyone expect Tyler Seguin not to make mistakes? Let him play, let him make mistakes - that's how he's going to learn. The Ottawa game Saturday did him a world of good.
    Posted by Wheatskins[/QUOTE]

    I agree Imagine teaching your young child to skate, only everytime he fell down you benched him for the rest of the lesson. Doesnt seem like he would learn much that way.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]No, that's not correct.  My point is that this shouldn't be a decision you make based on the crush fans get on rookies.  Everyone loooooves potential. So - I'm not saying "play the rookies less", I'm saying "play each rookie as much as he deserves". In general, Seguin, Caron, and Marchand all have earned the right to be here, but now they have to prove they can have a more positive impact than the players whose ice time they'd be taking away.  They need to make the most of their 12.5-13.5 min/game before you give them additional minutes.  Yes, there is an element of risk/reward here where you know Seguin isn't up to speed in his own zone, but he's improved enough that his poor defense won't offset his dyanimc offense.  Caron probably needs to improve at both ends equally to earn more ice.  Marchand needs to continue to score and create chances. Seguin probably needs a game or two in the press box right now because he's been more liability than asset.  And yes, you learn from the pressbox at this level, especially with an assistant coach in your ear all game.  Put him back in and, if he shows improvement, keep him in.  If he continues to improve, give him more ice.  If he starts to flounder and has another game where he's directly involved in ALL of the opposition's goals, take time away.  There's no better way to get an 18yr old's attention than to make consequences immediate and meaningful.  Wheeler is the second line centre because he's less likely to cause goals.  Sadly, that means two things.  Campbell is the third line centre because his line has been better at generating offense than Seguin's over the last two weeks.  The rookie who has earned more ice is Marchand.  He's playing very well and generating offense for that line.  With better passers and even marginally better finishers, his energy is more likely to translate into a positive goal differential if he's given more ice time.  I'd go so far as to say Marchand is the only rookie who has improved significantly over the season.  There's no doubt Seguin would be more fun to watch if he played more, and it may even be true that he'll play better if he's more "into" the game.  And yes, a little pain in the standings now is a sound investment if it means a healthy and responsible Seguin in the playoffs.  But I believe from long experience that he'll learn more and that learning will imprint on him better if he actually earns the opportunities rather than has them dropped in his lap because the Bruins aren't scoring as much as we'd all like to see.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Ah this fan does not have a crush on Seguin, Caron and certainly not Marchand. Looking at the bold lettering above, I was clearly saying that CJ does make decisions based performance. Yet, in the case of Seguin it is not based on TOI compared to other rookies in the league (Tuukainet's stats).  I flatly disagree on the Calculus analogy, apples and oranges comparison and it does not work.  The second set of bold wording is not true when speaking of spatial learning, imprinting can be made in the press box but only applied when playing on ice.  "dropping in his lap" is not what I was saying nor was the comment on the scoring.  I was clearly saying play, mentor, and learn from that tutuorial experience.  CJ is not that kind of coach imo.  Play the kids for within a month the vets will be back and kids like Caron may be playing in Providence.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wheatskins. Show Wheatskins's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]
    Here's another way to think of this: Would you give grade 3 kids a textbook and then an advanced calculus test? Lord knows they'll make plenty of mistakes on that test.  Anyone think the kids would learn calculus by making those mistakes?  Probably not. 
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]

    Bookboy, I understand what your saying, it may apply to someone who hasn't had much practise in math. I'm sure Tyler Seguin probably has not had much math experience, but we're not trying to make him an Astronaut.

    We're trying to get him NHL ready, and he has been playing for many years and has demonstrated superior skills at every level he has played. It's not as if he's making the jump from midget hockey here. Give him the puck - he knows what to do with it. For some reason, everyone is having trouble getting him the puck. Is it his positioning? Is he too fast?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from yaz16. Show yaz16's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    The one thing about Seguin i haven't been impressed with thus far is his hockey IQ level. He is no doubt an impressive 1 on 1 talent but not playing the game like he is a master of the chess board. Instead he is like a pond trying to capture the king all by himself

    I hope he gets through the season and it doesn't hamper his progress. The best thing for Seguin would have been to play in Providence by now. So much expectations is the only reason why he is sticking around
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bookboy007. Show Bookboy007's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    OK, let's try a different analogy.  I can't tell you how many times I heard students complain about their C+ grades in first-year univeristy classes by saying "but in High School, I always got an A+".  Different standards, and you have to learn what's expected in order to adapt.  

    I get what Wensink's saying and I'm not saying we turn him into a defense-first player, but I don't care how much pure goal-scoring talent he has, if he's a terrible liability over 2/3 of the ice, you can't just feed him ice time and hope you can accelerate his learning that way.  Remember some guy whose response to making defensive mistakes was "so I'll get it back on the next shift"?  As though he was good enough offensively that it didn't matter that he didn't backcheck?  This isn't some all or nothing equation.  Its a process and you have to be patient with it.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from hockey-101. Show hockey-101's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    In Response to Re: CJ and Seguin:
    [QUOTE]OK, let's try a different analogy.  I can't tell you how many times I heard students complain about their C+ grades in first-year univeristy classes by saying "but in High School, I always got an A+".  Different standards, and you have to learn what's expected in order to adapt.   I get what Wensink's saying and I'm not saying we turn him into a defense-first player, but I don't care how much pure goal-scoring talent he has, if he's a terrible liability over 2/3 of the ice, you can't just feed him ice time and hope you can accelerate his learning that way.  Remember some guy whose response to making defensive mistakes was "so I'll get it back on the next shift"?  As though he was good enough offensively that it didn't matter that he didn't backcheck?  This isn't some all or nothing equation.  Its a process and you have to be patient with it.
    Posted by Bookboy007[/QUOTE]


             Its gotta be tough on the kid.He will have to put his Crosby dreams aside.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jalvis. Show jalvis's posts

    Re: CJ and Seguin

    I really like this kid.  And that is what he is...just an 18 year-old kid.  There are going to be many mistakes.  But he just strikes me as motivated and willing to learn.  And I've heard quotes from CJ, PC, Bergeron, Recchi, and Chara saying as much.

    If he's too much a liability, he needs to have his TOI reduced or be benched.  And that is what appears to be happening.  And that's ok.  It's all part of the learning process.

    Marchand has been by far our best rookie.  And it's understandable; he has the most pro experience (113 games with Providence and 35 with Boston over the last 2+ seasons).  Seguin and Caron have only played in 15 and 14 pro games (all with Boston of course) respectively. 

    The future is very bright.  We just have to be patient.
     

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