torres on hossa

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    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : I don't know steve, I don't think it is as murky as you, but I get what you are saying.  Instead of looking at lifting the feet (which happens a lot) or just head contact (which can be inadvertant), I think it is really an issue of where the hitter targets the energy of the collision.  I know that sounds nebulous, but the guys who are delivering hits must learn to take 'center mass' -- body, torso, hips, etc.  If your feet come up, or some part of the head is hit on follow-through, I still think it is usually okay if the brunt of the hit is taken body to body. Dustin Brown's hit on Sedin was a good example -- a brutal hit where the torso was pounded, body on body.  Ovechkin and Seidenberg have been putting on a clinic of body thumping hits without taking the head.  I thought Chris Neil's huge hit on Boychuk was legal just for that reason -- the torso seemed to be targeted even if some follow through came up high. Torres appears to do just the opposite.  He has the opportunity to take the body and instead he launches higher to get the head.  If he didn't jump up at the last second into Hossa you have a pretty clean (still a bit late) hit.  Same thing with Rome on Horton -- he sends all of the power and energy of the hit right at Horton's head instead of his body.  Instead of bracing for hits, guys are launching themselves upwards.  It may be a subtle difference, but the difference in injury level is certainly not subtle.  I think Sedin and Hossa were hit very similarly, both were brutal, but since Sedin was hit in the body he was able to keep playing.  Hossa left on a stretcher. It's a tough distinction but I think it is one they need to make.  Any big hit must target the area between the hips and the shoulders.   That should be the rule.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]
    Wow Fletch, all of this debate going on within the league on this subject for years now and you've managed to nail it in one sentence. Well done.
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    I think that the shoulder pads and elbow pads for players need to be reduced dramatically in size and bulk. They are running around with armor all over their bodies but the helmet has remained basically unchanged for the past years.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

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    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : Wow Fletch, all of this debate going on within the league on this subject for years now and you've managed to nail it in one sentence. Well done.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    Thanks dez -- I'm starting to think it would be easier to define what you should do when hitting rather than what you shouldn't.  I'm with you on the resurrection of the lost hip check...
     
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    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : Wow Fletch, all of this debate going on within the league on this subject for years now and you've managed to nail it in one sentence. Well done.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    agreed
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : I don't know steve, I don't think it is as murky as you, but I get what you are saying.  Instead of looking at lifting the feet (which happens a lot) or just head contact (which can be inadvertant), I think it is really an issue of where the hitter targets the energy of the collision.  I know that sounds nebulous, but the guys who are delivering hits must learn to take 'center mass' -- body, torso, hips, etc.  If your feet come up, or some part of the head is hit on follow-through, I still think it is usually okay if the brunt of the hit is taken body to body. Dustin Brown's hit on Sedin was a good example -- a brutal hit where the torso was pounded, body on body.  Ovechkin and Seidenberg have been putting on a clinic of body thumping hits without taking the head.  I thought Chris Neil's huge hit on Boychuk was legal just for that reason -- the torso seemed to be targeted even if some follow through came up high. Torres appears to do just the opposite.  He has the opportunity to take the body and instead he launches higher to get the head.  If he didn't jump up at the last second into Hossa you have a pretty clean (still a bit late) hit.  Same thing with Rome on Horton -- he sends all of the power and energy of the hit right at Horton's head instead of his body.  Instead of bracing for hits, guys are launching themselves upwards.  It may be a subtle difference, but the difference in injury level is certainly not subtle.  I think Sedin and Hossa were hit very similarly, both were brutal, but since Sedin was hit in the body he was able to keep playing.  Hossa left on a stretcher. It's a tough distinction but I think it is one they need to make.  Any big hit must target the area between the hips and the shoulders.   That should be the rule.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]

    ok, we agree that feet and head shouldn't be the yard stick. Certainly not defending Torres here, but I think this type of hit is a great example to discuss. I have a hard time with "target' period.   Anyone who's played hockey at a high level knows target doesn't come into play often, and really is of no consequence anyway. I can target someones head, and if they move at the last second(which only happens about 98% of the time) the point of impact will be someplace else.
    Targetting the "hips through to the shoulders" is great in theory, but a player can honestly do that, and still take your head off.  Therefore, target is and should be, a moot point.  It's a really fast game.  Officials are really limited by "targets" too.
    Torres deal was considered excellent not long ago.  His stick wasn't up, and his elbows were down.  For everyone that considered it late, another said it was just "finishing the check".
    The new reality however, is this.  For whatever reason(and we know most of them), players can't physically withstand this type of thing anymore.  It's not lack of respect(there never was much), or anything like that, it's just that it's fundamental for athletes to push the boundaries of what's allowed and what isn't.  Todays players are faster, stronger, and more willing to put themselves in dangerous positions than they used to.  Equipment is harder.  The result is that hits are much more forceful than they once were.  Therefore the rules need to be amended in such a way, that anything violent enough to send somebody off the ice on a stretcher, can't be considered "part of the game".  Accidents, and injuries will happen, but that's different.  Any physical element that knocks someone into next week, cannot be considered, within the rules of fair play.  The fact that people debate whether Rome, or Torres deserve suspension is proof of a much bigger problem.  Of course they do, anyone watching the replay, with half a brain must admit the rules of hockey cannot permit this type of thing.  The current rules though, we see, leave much room for argument.
    How many times have we saw someone get pasted late?  Wouldn't that be a good place to start?  How about no checking after the puck leaves someones stick?  It would be better if there was a moments lag time, but it's almost impossible to enforce, so we can't logically go there....so ..the rule becomes "the time the puck leaves the stick".(merely an example)  Players can easily catch onto this.  Many instinctively do it now.  It's not difficult.  The idea of physicality in the first place, is merely to seperate the man from the puck so you can take it.  This is never, ever the case with late hits. Obviously, the puck is the last thing on the perpetraters mind.
    Target, and intent, and feet, and anything over half a second.......geez !!  How are people supposed to officiate that? It's ludicrous.
    The rules need to evolve, and be straight forward enough to be enforceable by human beings.
    Backstroms foul was "targeting the head".  Is that somehow worse than targeting the pills?  If Hossa's liver is pulverized, does it really matter if Torres left his feet?
    Jeepers !!
    That stuff is all blither from bored lawyers, and for some strange reason, we're just following along.
     Again, the rules must evolve and grow with the game.  They're not.
    The referee's are the most capable people, in the league's employ.  They're being minimized, and the game is suffering.
    Another thing is the sickening increase in the number of faked injuries, and the league is doing nothing about it.  There are quick fixes.  It amazes me that the league is so authoritative about something as insignificant as the puck going over the glass in the defensive end, and all of this diving, and faking death, becomes more prevalent, and the "delay" caused, still has not been dealt with by the league.  If a player can't get up and promptly make it to the bench, come up with a rule to deal with it.  How about if you're too injured to get back to the bench, you must be evaluated in the dressing room, and not be allowed to return to action for 30 minutes?.  Maybe not the best thought, but an easy, enforceable way to clean that crap up in a hurry.  It's got to be put in the rules, then let the officials do their job.
    We can't focus on subleties, when officiating a bunch of gladiators.  I wish the league would sensibly deal with some of this stuff, put Shanahan in charge of foreign relations, and make at least a feeble attempt to get this game back on the rails.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DrCC. Show DrCC's posts

    Re: torres on hossa

    In-person hearing on Friday, so one game will be served for sure.  Apparently Torres and the NHLPA asked for the delay in the hearing date.
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]
    [Massive cut to original post...
     How about no checking after the puck leaves someones stick?  It would be better if there was a moments lag time, but it's almost impossible to enforce, so we can't logically go there....so ..the rule becomes "the time the puck leaves the stick".(merely an example)  Players can easily catch onto this.  Many instinctively do it now.  It's not difficult. ]

    I feel the same way and thought of this but it can be difficult.  With this rule, a player holds the puck until he is about to be hit then moves it.  My point is there will always be a grey area. 
    I agree with your premise though, removing the legality of "finishing your check" and only allowing body checking (not hitting) to separate player from puck.  
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: torres on hossa

    Some interesting points steve, and many I agree with.

    I don't think the term 'target' should be taken too literally.  I don't think that thoughful choices are made in split seconds and obviously the way a hit is thrown has a lot more to do with instinct than calculated choice.  But I think these instincts can be shaped by the rules, at least on some level. 

    There are new 'habits' that we have seen in the game that eventually become a part of players intincts.  One of the most troubling ones is launching upwards into a hit.  Guys used to brace for big hits, body on body -- you would actually try to get lower to preserve your center of gravity.  The new tendency to launch upwards (like Torres and Rome) is not an uncontrollable reflex.  At some point, guys like Torres are making a choice, even if shaped by instinct to "go high".  I think it is a very cowardly way to hit -- devastating for the opponent and totally painless for the hitter.  Shoulder pads play a role in this too.  Players didn't do this much in the past, and I think we have to accept that this style of hitting is deliberate and preventable.

    If you don't want to use the term "target", I think you can also judge a hit as illegal where the primary force of impact is above the shoulders (or below the hips).  Sure there will be exceptions where a guy is falling and his head cannot be avoided in a collision, but the Torres and Rome hits were not so ambiguous.  To me, both of those hits had a distinctive and preventable action from the hitter -- launching upward at the point of impact to plant the shoulder pad into the face. 

    I think guys can learn to hit without doing that, like they used to.  I'm just not sure how big of a smackdown they need from the league to break the habit.
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    Torres suspended indefinitely, hearing set for Friday



    http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=628445

    "The hearing, which had been planned for today, was deferred at the request of the player and the National Hockey League Players' Association."
     
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    Good Raffi is done for a long time and he knows it that is why he delayed to speak with the NHLPA first.
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    This hit was a dime a dozen. I can't stand Torres, but can someone please explain the huge uproar over this hit on the same day Neal gets only one game for two hits on two consecutive shifts that were just as bad if not worse in terms of intent? Sick of this mob mentality crap, and preferential treatment of "stars."
     
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    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]This hit was a dime a dozen. I can't stand Torres, but can someone please explain the huge uproar over this hit on the same day Neal gets only one game for two hits on two consecutive shifts that were just as bad if not worse in terms of intent? Sick of this mob mentality crap, and preferential treatment of "stars."
    Posted by RawrBear[/QUOTE]

    Intent is half of it and result is the other.  Hossa went off on a stretcher and looked like he was dead, so it was a bigger deal.  If Neal had put someone on a stretcher he would be getting the same treatment.  It is what it is.
     
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    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : Intent is half of it and result is the other.  Hossa went off on a stretcher and looked like he was dead, so it was a bigger deal.  If Neal had put someone on a stretcher he would be getting the same treatment.  It is what it is.

    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]

    I don't buy the whole injury playing into the ruling. That's BS IMO.

     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]Some interesting points steve, and many I agree with. I don't think the term 'target' should be taken too literally.  I don't think that thoughful choices are made in split seconds and obviously the way a hit is thrown has a lot more to do with instinct than calculated choice.  But I think these instincts can be shaped by the rules, at least on some level.  There are new 'habits' that we have seen in the game that eventually become a part of players intincts.  One of the most troubling ones is launching upwards into a hit.  Guys used to brace for big hits, body on body -- you would actually try to get lower to preserve your center of gravity.  The new tendency to launch upwards (like Torres and Rome) is not an uncontrollable reflex.  At some point, guys like Torres are making a choice, even if shaped by instinct to "go high".  I think it is a very cowardly way to hit -- devastating for the opponent and totally painless for the hitter.  Shoulder pads play a role in this too.  Players didn't do this much in the past, and I think we have to accept that this style of hitting is deliberate and preventable. If you don't want to use the term "target", I think you can also judge a hit as illegal where the primary force of impact is above the shoulders (or below the hips).  Sure there will be exceptions where a guy is falling and his head cannot be avoided in a collision, but the Torres and Rome hits were not so ambiguous.  To me, both of those hits had a distinctive and preventable action from the hitter -- launching upward at the point of impact to plant the shoulder pad into the face.  I think guys can learn to hit without doing that, like they used to.  I'm just not sure how big of a smackdown they need from the league to break the habit.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]

    I don't think we're apart at all here fletch.  I'm just so disgusted with a lot of what I'm seeing in this playoff, and even more ticked about what fans are constantly talking about. Suspensions
    I really think fixing things, is pretty straight forward, and it starts with rewriting several rules, and keeping their interpretation straight forward and simple..
    Couple thoughts.  Guys used to brace themselves because they saw guys coming.  It was considered bush league to blind side someone...and if you did....you'd pay dearly(the game would be better off if some vigilantism krept back in)
    Socially we rely on good judgment to guide us, but that never works in sport.  you need rules.
    We've pretty much dealt with preserving your center of gravity.  That'll be pigeon holed as a clip, even though what used to be a black and white infraction is presently confused by fans and refs alike.  Wisely the league has done nothing to clarify.
    On the "launching up" thing, I've noticed that this often happens when someone is going for the big hit, and I'm wondering if that isn't a function of their body just straightening up when they make that final push.  Regardless, guess it doesn't matter, cuz when the guys layin there cross eyed,  singin the theme to Batman, it could make one think a penalty is in order .
    I really think with this Shanahan deal, the refs don't know what to make of anything.  In some cases(like the submarine) the rules need rewritten.  In this case, the officials had enough to work with.  Could have been a match interference, or a match charging.  For some reason, the refs are out of the loop.  You can smell they don't feel like they have control anymore...they're waiting on someone else to make a decision.
    What irks me most Fletch, is there'll be a whole slew of new potential suspensions to talk about tomorrow. 
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]This hit was a dime a dozen. I can't stand Torres, but can someone please explain the huge uproar over this hit on the same day Neal gets only one game for two hits on two consecutive shifts that were just as bad if not worse in terms of intent? Sick of this mob mentality crap, and preferential treatment of "stars."
    Posted by RawrBear[/QUOTE]

    Ever hear of the words "repeat offender" ?

    And I'm sick too . I'm sick of the lower echelon players ( Torres ) taking out the good hockey players ( Hossa ) that are worth tuning in to watch.

    Being Bruin's fans we should know all about this. We can still watch Sestito and Cooke. Savard and Horton ? Nope. 
     
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    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : Ever hear of the words "repeat offender" ? And I'm sick too . I'm sick of the lower echelon players ( Torres ) taking out the good hockey players ( Hossa ) that are worth tuning in to watch. Being Bruin's fans we should know all about this. We can still watch Sestito and Cooke. Savard and Horton ? Nope. 
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]
    Can't say I don't agree, but Neal is a repeat offender as well.
     
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    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : I don't buy the whole injury playing into the ruling. That's BS IMO.
    Posted by RawrBear[/QUOTE]

    You don't have to buy it.  You were asking what the difference was.  That's it.
     
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    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : Can't say I don't agree, but Neal is a repeat offender as well.
    Posted by RawrBear[/QUOTE]

    ...... to the degree of Torres ? That was 3 years ago. Torres has had more headshots (3) in one week in back to back to back games earlier this season.

    Neal is known for his goal scoring. Torres is known for giving out head shots and getting suspended because of it. 

    Raffi Torres + repeat offender extraordinaire = throw the freaking book at him.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : I don't think we're apart at all here fletch.  I'm just so disgusted with a lot of what I'm seeing in this playoff, and even more ticked about what fans are constantly talking about. Suspensions I really think fixing things, is pretty straight forward, and it starts with rewriting several rules, and keeping their interpretation straight forward and simple.. Couple thoughts.  Guys used to brace themselves because they saw guys coming.  It was considered bush league to blind side someone...and if you did....you'd pay dearly(the game would be better off if some vigilantism krept back in) Socially we rely on good judgment to guide us, but that never works in sport.  you need rules. We've pretty much dealt with preserving your center of gravity.  That'll be pigeon holed as a clip, even though what used to be a black and white infraction is presently confused by fans and refs alike.  Wisely the league has done nothing to clarify. On the "launching up" thing, I've noticed that this often happens when someone is going for the big hit, and I'm wondering if that isn't a function of their body just straightening up when they make that final push.  Regardless, guess it doesn't matter, cuz when the guys layin there cross eyed,  singin the theme to Batman, it could make one think a penalty is in order . I really think with this Shanahan deal, the refs don't know what to make of anything.  In some cases(like the submarine) the rules need rewritten.  In this case, the officials had enough to work with.  Could have been a match interference, or a match charging.  For some reason, the refs are out of the loop.  You can smell they don't feel like they have control anymore...they're waiting on someone else to make a decision. What irks me most Fletch, is there'll be a whole slew of new potential suspensions to talk about tomorrow. 
    Posted by stevegm[/QUOTE]

    You're absolutely right about the refs and their shared confusion.  I would hate to have to make these calls on the ice and there will be new suspensions to talk about tomorrow, no doubt.  That's why I think it is almost easier to define what a legal hit is, than to define all of the illegalities.  I think anything like the Torres hit, where a player launches upward and makes primary contact with the head could presumptively be ruled illegal.

    Your comment about recalling when you played hockey got me thinking about it since I haven't played in a full-check league in about 15 years.  I really do remember always trying to get lower for hits and big collisions.  Maybe that is because I am a taller player (6'3) and its actually hard to hit a guy who's 5'8 but solid and not lose your balance if you're straight up.  But I also think its because my instincts were developed from a young age to hit the body and avoid the head.  Somewhere that has been lost and I really don't know why.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcher1. Show Fletcher1's posts

    Re: torres on hossa

    In Response to Re: torres on hossa:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: torres on hossa : ...... to the degree of Torres ? That was 3 years ago. Torres has had more headshots (3) in one week in back to back to back games earlier this season. Neal is known for his goal scoring. Torres is known for giving out head shots and getting suspended because of it.  Raffi Torres + repeat offender extraordinaire = throw the freaking book at him.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]

    Totally agree.  I can't think of a worse repeat offender in the league.  He tries to injure people plain and simple.  I think he could have been suspended at least two more times this year with the Ference and Hejda hits.  He targets the head all the time, even when he doesn't need to.  The NHL would be better off without him.
     

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