When Players Were Afraid of Goons

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]

    But but but but but but...playing with a great player like Gretzky (or Yzerman) means you're a good hockey player and the points you post are due to your skill level, not "by accident".

    Semenko, Probert and Simon:  goons

    [/QUOTE]

    You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also.......accidently of course.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Probert played with Yzerman a significant amount more then Semenko played with Gretzky, at least thats how I remember it. It was also during a time when the game was wide open, so of course Proberts numbers are going to be somewhat inflated. When I look at Proberts numbers during those years I tend to look at it as just how terrific Steve Yzerman was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Me too. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Crowls2424. Show Crowls2424's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]

    But but but but but but...playing with a great player like Gretzky (or Yzerman) means you're a good hockey player and the points you post are due to your skill level, not "by accident".

    Semenko, Probert and Simon:  goons

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also.......accidently of course.

    [/QUOTE]

    Savard was at the end of his career when Probert arrived.  JR was the #1 center on that team.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

    [/QUOTE]

    The staged fights are a newer.  In the 80s and early 90s, goons played the full games.


    Yes, there is no definable description of a goon.  To each their own.  I consider Joey Kocur to be a goon, despite his 16-20-36 line from '89-90. 

    Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]

    But but but but but but...playing with a great player like Gretzky (or Yzerman) means you're a good hockey player and the points you post are due to your skill level, not "by accident".

    Semenko, Probert and Simon:  goons

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

    [/QUOTE]

    These are the names I put in the "goon" catorgory^^^^. Probert, Simon & Thornton? I don't consider guys who play over 6 min a game a goon.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]
    That's how bad Semenko was. He couldn't keep up with Gretzky and Kurri and scored points only by accident. His function was not to score goals. Gretzky and Kurri were basically playing between themselves and ignoring him.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Klaas. Show Klaas's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]

    But but but but but but...playing with a great player like Gretzky (or Yzerman) means you're a good hockey player and the points you post are due to your skill level, not "by accident".

    Semenko, Probert and Simon:  goons

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

    [/QUOTE]

    These are the names I put in the "goon" catorgory^^^^. Probert, Simon & Thornton? I don't consider guys who play over 6 min a game a goon.

    [/QUOTE]
    So you don't consider the king of goons, Dave Schultz of the Flyers, a goon (I hate to bring up names from long ago, but your screen name suggests maybe you might remember Schultz).

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 50belowzero. Show 50belowzero's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

    [/QUOTE]

    The staged fights are a newer.  In the 80s and early 90s, goons played the full games.


    Yes, there is no definable description of a goon.  To each their own.  I consider Joey Kocur to be a goon, despite his 16-20-36 line from '89-90. 

    Some guys had much lower goal totals, but if a player was able to ring up 398 PIM in one season, he's a goon in my book.

    [/QUOTE]

    I watched a replay of a Stanley Cup game between the B's & Habs from 1978 the other night, it was late in the third, with the game tied or the B's up by one and in a faceoff deep in the Habs zone Cherry had out, O'Reilly & Jonathan centered by Wensink. Talk about tough players, with talent,taking regular shifts, the "staged" fights just did not happen back then.It was "real" emotion, not trying to justify their jobs. Man i miss that. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also.......accidently of course.

    [/QUOTE]

    Savard was at the end of his career when Probert arrived.  JR was the #1 center on that team.

    [/QUOTE]

    JR was the #1 center........ which bumped Savard down to #2 ...........which makes Probert still a goon............gotcha.

    Another thinking man's post ? 

    Goons don't get first or second line status reserved for them.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    Draw whichever conclusions you'd like, but be certain that your statement of "You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also" was false.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Probert played with Yzerman a significant amount more then Semenko played with Gretzky, at least thats how I remember it. It was also during a time when the game was wide open, so of course Proberts numbers are going to be somewhat inflated. When I look at Proberts numbers during those years I tend to look at it as just how terrific Steve Yzerman was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Kel, the best playoff performance of Probert's career was 1988 when he had 21 points in 16 games. Yzerman hurt his knee slamming into a goal post so he was limited to 3 playoff games that year (4 pts).  Only twice in his career was Yzerman able to top 21 points in a single playoffs and in both cases, he played an extra series (1998-24 points in 22 games and in 2002-23 pts in 23 games). Bob Probert could play hockey. It was his personal demons that he couldn't keep in check. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Draw whichever conclusions you'd like, but be certain that your statement of "You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also" was false.

    [/QUOTE]

    .......as is your comment Probert was a goon. Your reasoning why, has not been given yet other then because "you said so". I have made my point. You haven't.

    How many goons in NHL history played on the PP, first line and second ( better ?) on a regular basis as Probert did ? 

    None.


     



     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to dezaruchi's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to kelvana33's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Probert played with Yzerman a significant amount more then Semenko played with Gretzky, at least thats how I remember it. It was also during a time when the game was wide open, so of course Proberts numbers are going to be somewhat inflated. When I look at Proberts numbers during those years I tend to look at it as just how terrific Steve Yzerman was.

    [/QUOTE]

    Kel, the best playoff performance of Probert's career was 1988 when he had 21 points in 16 games. Yzerman hurt his knee slamming into a goal post so he was limited to 3 playoff games that year (4 pts).  Only twice in his career was Yzerman able to top 21 points in a single playoffs and in both cases, he played an extra series (1998-24 points in 22 games and in 2002-23 pts in 23 games). Bob Probert could play hockey. It was his personal demons that he couldn't keep in check. 

    [/QUOTE]

    That, and he was a fearless fighter. One of the best during his time. A dynamic to his game that not many others have had. A player who was the best at intimidating while still being able to play the game alongside top players.



     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    There are goons who are mostly worthless other than fighting. Then there are goons who have some hockey skills as well. Probert was a goon of the latter category.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There are goons who are mostly worthless other than fighting. Then there are goons who have some hockey skills as well. Probert was a goon of the latter category.

    [/QUOTE]

    Your definition of goon ?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]

    But but but but but but...playing with a great player like Gretzky (or Yzerman) means you're a good hockey player and the points you post are due to your skill level, not "by accident".

    Semenko, Probert and Simon:  goons

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

    [/QUOTE]

    This is mine.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from WalkTheLine. Show WalkTheLine's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    Chowdah - My definition: A goon is a player who fights regularly as part of his role on the team. Either to intimidate the opposing team or to get his team fired up or to protect one of the elite players on his team. Often fights the opposing team's goon.

    So not everyone who fights is a goon and not everyone who has skill is exempt from being a goon, even if it's not his only role on the team. In my opinion goons are not always low skill, short minute guys.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Draw whichever conclusions you'd like, but be certain that your statement of "You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also" was false.

    [/QUOTE]

    .......as is your comment Probert was a goon. Your reasoning why, has not been given yet other then because "you said so". I have made my point. You haven't.

    How many goons in NHL history played on the PP, first line and second ( better ?) on a regular basis as Probert did ? 

    None.


     



     

    [/QUOTE]


    Anyone who racks up almost 400 PIM, mostly from fighting, is a goon in eyes.

    Sorry for the slow response.  I figured you were smart enough to connect the dots there.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Chowdahkid-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Draw whichever conclusions you'd like, but be certain that your statement of "You forgot to include Denis Savard in Chicago too. Probert played on Chicago's first line also" was false.

    [/QUOTE]

    .......as is your comment Probert was a goon. Your reasoning why, has not been given yet other then because "you said so". I have made my point. You haven't.

     
    How many goons in NHL history played on the PP, first line and second ( better ?) on a regular basis as Probert did ?
    None.


     



     

    [/QUOTE]


    Anyone who racks up almost 400 PIM, mostly from fighting, is a goon in eyes.

    Sorry for the slow response.  I figured you were smart enough to connect the dots there.

    [/QUOTE]

    Smart enough to know that goons don't get top line minutes and put on the PP. 

    And no need to apologize for being slow. Around here it's understood.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to WalkTheLine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Chowdah - My definition: A goon is a player who fights regularly as part of his role on the team. Either to intimidate the opposing team or to get his team fired up or to protect one of the elite players on his team. Often fights the opposing team's goon.

    So not everyone who fights is a goon and not everyone who has skill is exempt from being a goon, even if it's not his only role on the team. In my opinion goons are not always low skill, short minute guys.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sounds like a description of Terry O'Reilly. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to Klaas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Crowls2424's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How could Semenko skate regularly with Gretzky who was putting up 200 point seasons and only muster a career-best 27 in 1982-83?  Just doesn't compute, seems like you would register at least 50-60 points by accident. 

    [/QUOTE]

    But but but but but but...playing with a great player like Gretzky (or Yzerman) means you're a good hockey player and the points you post are due to your skill level, not "by accident".

    Semenko, Probert and Simon:  goons

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess we just have different definitions for what constitutes a "goon". 

     

    My definition; a guy who parks his butt on the bench, save the few shifts that he gets on the ice, typically in the 1st and 2nd period.  He is unlikely to show up in the score sheet, unless you are looking at the penalty summary, where he may have engaged in a staged fight with the other team’s goon (see John Scott, Brian McGratton, George Parros, Colton Orr or Shawn Thornton). 

     

    Just because Probert could beat your azz, doesn’t make him a goon.   At least, not by my definition.

    [/QUOTE]

    These are the names I put in the "goon" catorgory^^^^. Probert, Simon & Thornton? I don't consider guys who play over 6 min a game a goon.

    [/QUOTE]
    So you don't consider the king of goons, Dave Schultz of the Flyers, a goon (I hate to bring up names from long ago, but your screen name suggests maybe you might remember Schultz).

    [/QUOTE]

    I do remember "The Hammer" very well. However, you have to remember the hockey was a lot different in those days. Most teams only used 3 lines & there was on most nights a mininum of 4 fights per game. So Schultz probably would've had 10-12 minutes TOI with another 6-14 PIMS.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from NeelyOrrBourque. Show NeelyOrrBourque's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    I really cannot believe the knowledgable hockey people on here that actually put Bob Probert in the goon cat as a Troy Crowder, Troy Malliet & Krzstiov Olyiwa! This is stuff I expected from the likes of Null, or heyoo. Extremely disappointing to say the least.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    In response to NeelyOrrBourque's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I really cannot believe the knowledgable hockey people on here that actually put Bob Probert in the goon cat as a Troy Crowder, Troy Malliet & Krzstiov Olyiwa! This is stuff I expected from the likes of Null, or heyoo. Extremely disappointing to say the least.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think you'll survive.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: When Players Were Afraid of Goons

    A goon gone 1980s here.  The league was full of goons.  If Semenko skated with Gretzky then he was a bodyguard not a goon.  I agree with Klass.  

     

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