Why Goal Scoring Is Down

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Great link dez.  Perfectly to the point in this discussion.  The same could be said for huge goalie gear and stacking the blue line 4-across --  good for winning; bad for hockey. I'm not suggeesting any radical changes, just acknowledging some of the less-then-attractive changes out there.
    Posted by Fletcher1[/QUOTE]
    Fletch, I've always said I don't blame coaches for employing whatever strategy that works(gets wins) for his team. Winning isn't always pretty.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : Fletch, I've always said I don't blame coaches for employing whatever strategy that works(gets wins) for his team. Winning isn't always pretty.
    Posted by dezaruchi[/QUOTE]

    I blame the systems these coaches are playing as to why scoring is down but I don't blame them doing what they think is best for their team to win.

    Wouldnt you guys love to see a coach go against the grain and just try to win on offense? I understand why they'd be reluctant but if one ever did and had success the game would be that much better off.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from nitemare-38. Show nitemare-38's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : That is so not where I thought you were going! Hey, just sharing the some glove love. Well done.
    Posted by kelvana33[/QUOTE]
    Nothing wrong with adding some mustard to the "hotdog" Kel! At least you didn't get burned trying to pull the "Statue of Liberty" One of my most favorite moments in hockey was watching Roy make a fool of himself.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I was at a conference at a hotel in Canada last week, and the paper at more door, the Globe and Mail, had it's lead sports story as the return of the dead-puck era in hockey. It's an editorial by Eric Duhatschek:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/a-three-in-the-key-rule-to-solve-nhls-shot-blocking-bore/article2428085/

    Anyone thinking the problem is whining Boston fans is not watching the hockey. The editorial suggests a 3-in-the-key rule. It might be necessary, but I really hope the league trims goalie, and skater, equipment before it resorts to that step. I think before implementing new conditions they should look at returning the game to previous conditions as best they can.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I totally agree. That's why I think they need to trim the goal pads. If pucks could go in a little easier it would make sense to fire lots of shots on goal. As it stands, they don't, and as such firewagon hockey won't work.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down : I blame the systems these coaches are playing as to why scoring is down but I don't blame them doing what they think is best for their team to win. Wouldnt you guys love to see a coach go against the grain and just try to win on offense? I understand why they'd be reluctant but if one ever did and had success the game would be that much better off.
    Posted by kelvana33[/QUOTE]
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dezaruchi. Show dezaruchi's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]I totally agree. That's why I think they need to trim the goal pads. If pucks could go in a little easier it would make sense to fire lots of shots on goal. As it stands, they don't, and as such firewagon hockey won't work. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]
    Yep, there's no way that taking an inch (each way) off of the blockers would be a safety issue. Slightly smaller gloves would reward the more athletic goalies. I remember when it was a big deal when a goalie had a good glove hand. Now everybody's got a good glove hand because the trappers are starting to rival outfield mitts in size.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moogfan35. Show moogfan35's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I hate the equipment argument, to me its just the easiest thing for people to point out and dont look at other aspects as to why scoring is down.

    Equipment used to be much larger, example check out Garth Snow when he played, if equipment is the issue now then this guy wouldnt ever have been scored on and should have been a hall of famer.

    Systems are different now as Kel pointed out, every system in the NHL is defense first. The capitals are a fresh example of this. They played 14 games in the playoffs and 13 were 1 goal games. They averaged blocking more shots than they took. All that will be needed is for 2-3 teams to change their systems and if they are successful all the others will follow

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    You hate the equipment argument because it appears you don't understand it:

    1. Of course the systems are the main reason scoring is down. The argument is that you only use systems that work. The 1982 Oilers used a run and gun system and it worked for a number of reasons. One was that they had the talent and another was that the shooting area was about 40% larger than it is now due to smaller equipment. Teams now use defensive structures because it's easier for goalies to stop pucks with the much smaller shooting area. That applies to the goalies at both ends. Run-and-gun won't result in you scoring goals because it's too hard, and playing committed collapse defense will prevent goals because even average NHL goalies can stop most outside shots with their oversized pads. We aren't seeing goalies diving around line an acrobat or darting out gloves to snag pucks at the last minute. We are seeing them standing square to shooters, blocking shots with big pads, steering them into the corners.

    2. You are incorrect about the pads.  Prior to 2011 pads were limited to 38" in length. 2011 onward, pads were allowed to be no more than 55% up a player's thigh... which means many pads now well exceed 38". Bringing up Snow's ridiculous oversized pads shows you don't understand the physics of hockey. That padding sticking up over a shoulder of a goalie does very little because a puck is shot from the ice.  If you were trying to go above a goalies shoulder you would miss the net entirely and put a puck in the stands due to the trajectory. If you are trying to go top shelf you are actually shooting pucks just above the goalie's shin pads when they are in the butterfly. As the shot passes the goalie it continues on it's upward angle to the top corner of the net which is usually several feet behind him. This is why just a few inches in goalie shin pad size takes away several feet of net space.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]I hate the equipment argument, to me its just the easiest thing for people to point out and dont look at other aspects as to why scoring is down. Equipment used to be much larger, example check out Garth Snow when he played, if equipment is the issue now then this guy wouldnt ever have been scored on and should have been a hall of famer. Systems are different now as Kel pointed out, every system in the NHL is defense first. The capitals are a fresh example of this. They played 14 games in the playoffs and 13 were 1 goal games. They averaged blocking more shots than they took. All that will be needed is for 2-3 teams to change their systems and if they are successful all the others will follow
    Posted by moogfan35[/QUOTE]
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moogfan35. Show moogfan35's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    OatesCam-  Im going to have to disagree with you on your points.

    its hard for me to explain. But the biggest thing I can come up with is that the defensive schemes allow for goalies to be more successful because it easier to predict what is going to happen on certain plays and can setup and be in position better. They arent setup to be out of position as often and arent facing the 2-3 on 1's. Its a great formula which some teams pull off better than others. To say if that goalies pad was an inch shorter or his blocker were smaller that shot would have went in is crazy to me. This may be true on few occasions but to say this would make a big difference in scoring doesnt make sense to me.  

    If the systems were to change and the game were more open, you would see more goalies have to move and then the holes would open up and scoring would increase. The way it is now, they can pretty much predict where shots are going to come from which makes it easier to stop.

    And I brought up Snow to say that the size of the equipment doesn't translate into less goals. He had oversized stuff and still couldnt stop the puck 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sistersledge. Show Sistersledge's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Goalie equipment is too big, too many grinders on teams and the trapped.

    What to do ? First, smaller equipment for goalies. Second reduce the number of players dressed for each game by 3, get rid of the fourth liner and have skilled players on the ice more. Third, nothing you can do about defensive systems. They have always been in the game from kitty bar the door to the modern day  1 2 2 trap. It's to  prevent goals.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chowdahkid-. Show Chowdahkid-'s posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Last night's NYR - NJD game . The Devils had 21 shots on net, 26 shots blocked and probably a number that went wide. That's over 50 shots directed at the Ranger net with only 21 reaching it's destination.

    This year will be remembered by me as the year blocked shots took center stage in the NHL playoffs.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49-North. Show 49-North's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Goalie equipment is too big, too many grinders on teams and the trapped. What to do ? First, smaller equipment for goalies. Second reduce the number of players dressed for each game by 3, get rid of the fourth liner and have skilled players on the ice more. Third, nothing you can do about defensive systems. They have always been in the game from kitty bar the door to the modern day  1 2 2 trap. It's to  prevent goals.
    Posted by Sistersledge[/QUOTE]

    Not even the slightest chance that the NHLPA would go along with this one.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    No question that goalie position is better, the goalies are better, and the defensive schemes make it easier for goalies to predict shots.

    Now, lie on the ground several feet from a wall with your cheek on the floor. Put your hand in front of your face. See how much of the wall you are able to see. Then fold a finger into your hand so you can see past it. You will see that you can see much, much more of the wall than you could before. If you were a puck going to the net, in a similar way a small increase in padding would make a dramatic change in what you can hit.

    You disagree with my points but don't really address them. I said pads are larger. You disagree with this? I'm confused. The pads are larger.

    You said Garth Snow's pads being big means that big pads don't mean good goaltending. I never said they did. I also said that I was not talking about extra large shoulder pads. I said that shoulder pads don't make much of a difference. It's the shin pads. Pucks are shot from the ice. That means that something on the ice needs to be cleared before it can hit the net. Hockey shots are not lobbed. You can't arc a puck up and over a pad and hit the bottom corner. If you clear the pads in an upward trajectory, the puck continues on that trajectory. If the goalie is out from the net, it is literally nearly impossible to go over the pads and not also go over the net. Inches of pads translate into feet of net space taken away.

    The pads are bigger, this is not up for debate. I don't know how you can argue that bigger shin pads which result in dramatically smaller possible shooting area doesn't result in few goals.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]OatesCam-  Im going to have to disagree with you on your points. its hard for me to explain. But the biggest thing I can come up with is that the defensive schemes allow for goalies to be more successful because it easier to predict what is going to happen on certain plays and can setup and be in position better. They arent setup to be out of position as often and arent facing the 2-3 on 1's. Its a great formula which some teams pull off better than others. To say if that goalies pad was an inch shorter or his blocker were smaller that shot would have went in is crazy to me. This may be true on few occasions but to say this would make a big difference in scoring doesnt make sense to me.   If the systems were to change and the game were more open, you would see more goalies have to move and then the holes would open up and scoring would increase. The way it is now, they can pretty much predict where shots are going to come from which makes it easier to stop. And I brought up Snow to say that the size of the equipment doesn't translate into less goals. He had oversized stuff and still couldnt stop the puck 
    Posted by moogfan35[/QUOTE]
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Ok that is it! Three in the key, pads shrinkage is ok, but let us face the fact.  Goalies and players are not the problem!!!!  The size of the net is the problem.  You hockey purist are like "European football" fans!  Don't tarnish the sport, but let the defensive play dictate.  Butterfly technique is out the window with a net 6 inches or even as I suggest a foot higher, don't move the net back, don't move the net wider!  The simple truth is the players are out growing the size of the rink, so instead of ruining the game by increasing the size of the rink, then increase the size of the net upwards.  All these shinangans of pads, blocking, goalie styles, collapsing will be answered.  Using your legs to block is one thing but your head is another!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Nope. It's interesting that you talk about increasing the net size and soccer in the same post. A larger net does not = more goals getting past a goalie. You would have to add several feet in all directions to have the same impact of trimming shin pads an inch. Which is easier and more consistent with how the game has always been played? With a big net a goalie with big pads can still block the puck's field of view of the net. The net would have to be gigantic to allow direct shot lines to the net above the pads. I don't want that either. I just want goalies relying on athleticism to make saves, not equipment.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Ok that is it! Three in the key, pads shrinkage is ok, but let us face the fact.  Goalies and players are not the problem!!!!  The size of the net is the problem.  You hockey purist are like "European football" fans!  Don't tarnish the sport, but let the defensive play dictate.  Butterfly technique is out the window with a net 6 inches or even as I suggest a foot higher, don't move the net back, don't move the net wider!  The simple truth is the players are out growing the size of the rink, so instead of ruining the game by increasing the size of the rink, then increase the size of the net upwards.  All these shinangans of pads, blocking, goalie styles, collapsing will be answered.  Using your legs to block is one thing but your head is another!
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Sorry Oates, up mostly not in width.  Any geometric argument does not follow upward.  The shots upward simply would make the goalie stand upright pre Patrick Roy.  Shooting the puck up will make players who slide on the ice to block shots not effective.  It is not a cure all but it will make scoring go up.  
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    I'll have to draw a diagram to explain.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Sorry Oates, up mostly not in width.  Any geometric argument does not follow upward.  The shots upward simply would make the goalie stand upright pre Patrick Roy.  Shooting the puck up will make players who slide on the ice to block shots not effective.  It is not a cure all but it will make scoring go up.  
    Posted by islamorada[/QUOTE]
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from stevegm. Show stevegm's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Wow, this thread is sure "keepin on'.  I understand goalies hating anything that could potentially move their GAA up, it just makes perfect sense.  Count me in though, as a supporter of Oates Cams proposal.
    I don't want to see a lot more scoring, but I would like to see the odd 50 goal guy, and agree this fairly minor tweak could help the overall entertainment factor, while still maintaining balance. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Last night's NYR - NJD game . The Devils had 21 shots on net, 26 shots blocked and probably a number that went wide. That's over 50 shots directed at the Ranger net with only 21 reaching it's destination. This year will be remembered by me as the year blocked shots took center stage in the NHL playoffs.
    Posted by Chowdahkid-[/QUOTE]

    It's " the box "  the new trap.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BsLegion. Show BsLegion's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Nope. It's interesting that you talk about increasing the net size and soccer in the same post. A larger net does not = more goals getting past a goalie. You would have to add several feet in all directions to have the same impact of trimming shin pads an inch. Which is easier and more consistent with how the game has always been played? With a big net a goalie with big pads can still block the puck's field of view of the net. The net would have to be gigantic to allow direct shot lines to the net above the pads. I don't want that either. I just want goalies relying on athleticism to make saves, not equipment. In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down :
    Posted by OatesCam[/QUOTE]

    I'm with you on tweaking equipment but they always seem to find loop holes and it's hard regulate .  The the taller the goalie the bigger the pads he's allowed and then the smaller goalies copy the size.
    I'm also against making the nets bigger although I don't understand, if the equipment size remains the same and the nets get a little higher and wider how is it that the shooters won't have more openings ?

    Another note on equipment in general (maybe best on another thread).  The question has been floating around football sites as of why in Rugby there are less concussions.  Could it be it's the equipment ? You don't see hard plastic , robo-cop uniforms in Rugby.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from islamorada. Show islamorada's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    No need for a diagram Oates, european football players and goalies jump up.  Hockey Goalies cannot jump up.  Geometry is simple, angles and lines leading to the opening.  If a goalie is wider with pads and the net remains the same, it does not matter how you explain the defensive scheme, there is less net to shoot at by the offense.  If a shot is made upwards (clings on the crossbar will be goals) the end result will be more goal scoring.  The goalies will have to stand up more, and defensive play will be off of the ice.  

    Purists will not go this way, so we will banter on size of pads.  With the advent of the new rules from the CBA and differing play on the ice the past few years, I am inclined to say change the rules.  Basketball and European football has been ruined by lack of fortitude and purist puritans of hockey fathers.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from fourrings. Show fourrings's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    i'm not going to read every post on this thread but perhaps if forward and defenseman were wearing smaller shin pads, shoulder/chest etc. then they would get out of the way with more pucks getting to the net. instead what we have now is teams like the rangers/capitals blocking everything without much risk of injury. get more pucks to the net and more of them would go in.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Okay lets end this once and for all.

    Heres what i propose.

    Goalie Equiment:

    I agree with the thought of bringing the athletic part back to the position. Why I feel they are great athletes, the butterfly style and the equipment have goaltenders relying too much on positioning. We are not going to get rid of the butterfly style and force them to rely more on their athleticsism unless we tail back the equioment. so heres what i got.

    pads - no more than 10 inches in width.(was once 12 now is 11)      
           -   dont care how tall you are you can have no more than a plus 1 sizing tham what you wear.

    glove/blocker - make the glove a glove, no blocker near the wrist area. no baskets either, come up with an ideal length
    Blocker can be trimmed up to 2 inches at the top and an inch width wise.

    Chest protectors - Dont need all the bulk for protection, dont need a bullet proof vest either. i'm sure the good people at Vaughn and RBK can come up with a happy medium, and they will once the rules are changed, i'd focus more on the width near the shoulder area.

    Players:

    Get rid of the body armour weaponry like equipment i.e shoulder,elbow and shin pads. Shin pads i would focus on width. Of course you'd have to do soemthing about the seamless glass or we'll have some seperated shoulders. Go back to the old style with new look. Also, this will help keeping our best players safe and will reduce the amount of concussions as i feel this is the #1 reason for them.

    - Players are not allowed to leave their feet to block shots. Or, maybe just defenseman are. You talk about bringing athleticism back to goaltenders well i'm tired of seeing forwards on their stomachs blocking shots in the defensive zone. Blocking shots is an "art" you say. So is goaltenders playing the puck but we limited that didnt we. Forwards are their to score, I like their chances alot more if their on their feet and skating towards the oppsoitions net, not lying down in front of their own. If a forward sprawls to black a shot, 2 minute minor.

    - Make players serving penalties serve the whole two minutes even if the oppsosition scores. This will tail back some of the holding,slashing etc..

    - Come up with something that rewards the team that scores the most goals during the season. i dont like points handed out for this I'm thinking a additional draft pick at the end of the first round (sandwich pick??) or maybe even hosting the all-star game the next year, or perhaps even an extra 2 million is awarded to that teams cap the following year...just some ideas.....Your thoughts

    OatesCam, NAS, I beleive I have negotiated in good faith here.

    Damn I'm good.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from MDsizzle. Show MDsizzle's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    Carving down the goalie equipment is all well and good and has been done before, but remember, by making the equipment smaller and lighter will also make the goalie move quicker and be more agile. If the mission is to increase scoring, i would look at the gameplay it self. Looking to make more scoring opportunities and more shots will result in more goals. Like mentioned in the last post, using the full 2 minutes on the pp. Think of all the additional scoring chances we would see if there was no offsides, that one tweak alone would make Wheeler put up Crosby-like numbers, not to mention keeping the play going. How about making icing a delay of game penalty?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from OatesCam. Show OatesCam's posts

    Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down

    What you're saying is great. I agree with trimming and softening the skater pads. I would go so far that a non-goalie player blocking a shot should feel it... it should hurt, just not injure. I can take or leave the not leaving feet thing. It wouldn't hurt. It's the standup blocks that irk me more, so there's where trimming the skater pads would help. The reward for offense is a point that jumps out and is pretty novel. I need to give that one some thought as to how best it would be to implement. But something to encourage offense above and beyond winning games is pretty radical and addresses the whole coaching thing on another level. We can speculate that Hunter left in part because Caps ownership doesn't want cash cow Ovechkin playing 15 minutes a game. Something like this could take it a step further.

    In Response to Re: Why Goal Scoring Is Down:
    [QUOTE]Okay lets end this once and for all. Heres what i propose. Goalie Equiment: I agree with the thought of bringing the athletic part back to the position. Why I feel they are great athletes, the butterfly style and the equipment have goaltenders relying too much on positioning. We are not going to get rid of the butterfly style and force them to rely more on their athleticsism unless we tail back the equioment. so heres what i got. pads - no more than 10 inches in width.(was once 12 now is 11)              -   dont care how tall you are you can have no more than a plus 1 sizing tham what you wear. glove/blocker - make the glove a glove, no blocker near the wrist area. no baskets either, come up with an ideal length Blocker can be trimmed up to 2 inches at the top and an inch width wise. Chest protectors - Dont need all the bulk for protection, dont need a bullet proof vest either. i'm sure the good people at Vaughn and RBK can come up with a happy medium, and they will once the rules are changed, i'd focus more on the width near the shoulder area. Players: Get rid of the body armour weaponry like equipment i.e shoulder,elbow and shin pads. Shin pads i would focus on width. Of course you'd have to do soemthing about the seamless glass or we'll have some seperated shoulders. Go back to the old style with new look. Also, this will help keeping our best players safe and will reduce the amount of concussions as i feel this is the #1 reason for them. - Players are not allowed to leave their feet to block shots. Or, maybe just defenseman are. You talk about bringing athleticism back to goaltenders well i'm tired of seeing forwards on their stomachs blocking shots in the defensive zone. Blocking shots is an "art" you say. So is goaltenders playing the puck but we limited that didnt we. Forwards are their to score, I like their chances alot more if their on their feet and skating towards the oppsoitions net, not lying down in front of their own. If a forward sprawls to black a shot, 2 minute minor. - Make players serving penalties serve the whole two minutes even if the oppsosition scores. This will tail back some of the holding,slashing etc.. - Come up with something that rewards the team that scores the most goals during the season. i dont like points handed out for this I'm thinking a additional draft pick at the end of the first round (sandwich pick??) or maybe even hosting the all-star game the next year, or perhaps even an extra 2 million is awarded to that teams cap the following year...just some ideas.....Your thoughts OatesCam, NAS, I beleive I have negotiated in good faith here. Damn I'm good.
    Posted by kelvana33[/QUOTE]
     

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