Bill Russell and today's athletes

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    aciemvp

    Like all others on this subject you want to bring Russ's weight up to 235-240 lbs. Could it be that you don't think that Russ could compete against the present day players at 215 lbs?

    SeemsToMe
     
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    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    TeamUmbutu

    I totaly agree with you on the issue of remaking a player so that he conforms to the standards of a different generation. I also agree that some present day players would be hampered by the lack of physical contact that existed during the Russell years. But unlike you I believe that the present teams,playing under the rules of the 50's-60's, have the talent to greatly negate Russ's effectiveness.

    SeemsToMe 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maverick685. Show maverick685's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    In Response to Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes:
    [QUOTE] Jordan won MVPs and Championships and is considered the greatest player ever.  In my mind, he's not as great as Russell, Chamberlain, and Big O (who averaged a triple double).  Heck, just look at Russell's and Oscar's college careers - more dominant personally than Jordan's by any stretch. But, the one thing about conditioning of today's athletes is this: [/QUOTE]

    How can you put Chamberlain up there with Russell and Jordan?  To me Russell and Jordan are definitely in the same category... They were both winners.  Those guys HAD TO WIN.  Period.  Jordan would play through injury, sickness, whatever, as I'm sure Russell did, as well as go to practice early and force his entire team to practice to win.  They were both great under pressure.  They both worked hard on BOTH ends of the floor.  To me it's impossible to say if one or the other is better because they were in different eras and they did not play each other.

    Chamberlain is a whole different story, however.  All he cared about was stats.  Me me me my my my.  The season where he lead the league in assists was because he wanted to lead that category.  He would only pass to certain people.  He wouldn't, and I would argue that he *couldn't* play defense... he was too afraid to foul out and it didn't give him stats (no blocks remember?).  He also wasn't good in the clutch.  This is all also in Bill Simmons book of basketball... I'm not just making this stuff up.  Yes, I have only seen clips and read stories of Russell and Chamberlain because I am too young, but I did see Michael play and I grew up in Chicago.  From everything I've seen and read Michael and Russell were extremely similar, just in different eras and in different positions and body sizes.  Chamberlain doesn't come close.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Elias, you and I can continue to "agree to disagree"....but I'd like to point out that, back in Russ' day, the league was not dominated by 80% white players...and the times may seem ancient to you....but some of the best basketball was played from the mid '50's through the mid '80's......as I pointed out earlier....

    29 of the "Greatest 50" list played between the mid '50's and the mid '70's

    16 of those 29 were black players

    Russ was born in a time where the emphasis was not on weight training, etc....I am not saying that the Russell of the '60's would dominate today....I am saying that, if the same man (physical and mental makeup) were born today, he would take advantage of the same culture....he would be the same height but he would probably play at 250....he would have the same athleticism....speed, tremendous leaping ability, eye hand coordination....and he would have the same fiery competitiveness and off the charts basketball IQ.....that man would be dominant in today's league...think of it....Larry Bird was not an athlete in the mold of MJ or James Worthy...he was slow and definitely not a great leaper....but his skills, basketball IQ, and will to win made him one of the greatest players in the league... he came into the league in 1979...are you telling me he would not be as dominant today? ...over 30 years later?  ....if you think he would then your argument regarding Russ is also moot....if you don't then I think you would be wrong my friend...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    ....also.....my point on the difference between baseball players of today and the 50's-60's is that the players are babied and spoiled today....someone pointed out that athletes today make so much money and can't afford to get hurt...but think of it this way....athletes in the earlier day didn't make this kind of money...many did bring in $50K or more which was big money back then.....but many great players also had to get part time jobs in the off season....today's athlete can sign the rookie deal and then become a multi millionaire by age 25.....even if they were to get hurt they'd be set for life...remember Dave Parker of the Pirates? ....the "Cobra" signed a huge extension and basically mailed it in for the remainder of his career....just saying...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    In Response to Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes:
    [QUOTE]aciemvp Like all others on this subject you want to bring Russ's weight up to 235-240 lbs. Could it be that you don't think that Russ could compete against the present day players at 215 lbs? SeemsToMe
    Posted by SeemsToMe[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Seems.....that was never the premise.....we are talking basketball skills and IQ....I just posted that we are talking about if the same man were born into today's league...he would still be around 6-10....but he would benefit from the same culture every other player of today does....and I was following him during his career...I know that he is listed at 215.... that may have been in his rookie year....heck Wilt was very lean as a rookie....but that is far from the truth...he played around 225 ....and he was very effective playing against Wilt, who had at least 3 inches and 25-50 pounds on him....before comparing their individual statistics against each other....just accept that Wilt called him the toughest opponent he ever faced....and visa versa...besides....Wilt was obsessed with stats.....Russ was obsessed with winning championships
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Duke
    Using the "50 greatest" as a example of the ability of the Old Timers is on shaky grounds to say the least. The list represents a cross section of each generation selecting the most impressive from each generation.A honor that they certainly deserve, but several players from the 50's & 60's  would be hard pressed to even make the roster of a nba team now.

    SeemsToMe 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Seems to me-

    Why?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    In Response to Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes:
    [QUOTE]I have never liked the argument that if some one were bigger and stronger they could compete today. That is like saying if a guy was someone else they could compete today. The only reason why strength is important in today's game is not because guys are bigger and stronger today, Posted by TeamUmbutu[/QUOTE]


    that is not the arguement at all- you would just have to assume that someone with russell's desire to win and be the best would take advantage of the best standard training practices used in the industry, and probably then some.

    that's all.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    In Response to Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes:
    [QUOTE]aciemvp Like all others on this subject you want to bring Russ's weight up to 235-240 lbs. Could it be that you don't think that Russ could compete against the present day players at 215 lbs? SeemsToMe
    Posted by SeemsToMe[/QUOTE]

    yes, i think russell could compete at that weight.

    however, knowing russell's intensity, intelligence, unbridled desire to win, he would NEVER fall behind the league norm for training practices.

    those practices happen to be vastly different today than in the 1960s.  most notably, don't lose sight of the fact that 90% of the players from the late 1950s on up through the early 70's had SUMMER JOBS to make ends meet.  THAT did not promote or enable a year round training schedule.

    The times they have a changed, and I for one do not feel it a stretch nor an insult to simply assume that Russell would follow in those conditioning changes, if not lead the way,  and therefore would have an enhanced physique to some extent.

    in the modern game where your average player lifts weights a lot and is a noticable bit heavier per inch of height than forty years ago, why would russell decide to go at a competitive disadvantage in muscle bulk if you were to plug him into the modern game?

    i guess you could also argue that he'd be an overpaid, moody, possibly lazy, and with a spoiled disposition if he was brought through the system now as opposed to the late 1950s, but i don't think the different eras would have changed russell's, of all people's character, much at all.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Russell had a stat that is impossible to measure, the will to win. I know that everyone who plays a game of any sort 'wants to win'. But with Russell, that part of his psyche seemed to be off the charts.

    Jordan was the same, when you listen to his hall of fame speech you can see exactly what drove him. And it wasn't a nice speech, mostly about proving people wrong, and perceived slights that Jordan saw against him during his career. He attacked people from all over his past. And it went on and on and on.  But it did show what made him the player he was. Lot's of guys have the talent, but Jordan had that something extra.  

    Did Russell have the same anger during his playing career as Jordan have? Did he also have it after his retirement? I remember reading that he initially wanted to have his number retired in private. He's certainly mellowed with age, but I'd say his personality type wouldn't be far removed from Jordans.


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from soups. Show soups's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    The way that modern games are officiated, most old-time big men would foul out in the first quarter of the game.  No joke.  Not only that, but today's league would also have issued fines aplenty.  Russell is probably the exception.  
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    My guess is that besides steroids and HGH, which Russell would never use, his work out regimen would probably be the same today as it was then. Anyone who can play an entire games was in great great shape.

    Who can say if he would be different? That adds speculation on top of speculation. I am much more comfortable with people being who they are than who they might become. Anyone might become anything, Heck, I guess with the right "training regimen" I could play in the NBA... not! I was a very good athlete in my sport, however, I have never liked Walter Mitty. 

    When is comes to speculation no-one is right, and no one is wrong. Some people are just willing to accept greater degrees of speculation then others.

    I am not right or wrong as is true of your argument.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    TeamUmbutu
    Celtic game time in 5 minutes. Get back to you after the game.

    SeemsToMe
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    SeemstoMe:   I only say Russell will be stronger because the argument so many others use is that the athletes of today are bigger/stronger/faster.   I believe Russell of the 60's would do well today (he played Chambelain and Thurmond and beat them, didn't he), but just to counter the argument others use, I am letting them know that Russell would have the same advantages they have as today's athletes.   
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    In Response to Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes:
    [QUOTE]Duke Using the "50 greatest" as a example of the ability of the Old Timers is on shaky grounds to say the least. The list represents a cross section of each generation selecting the most impressive from each generation.A honor that they certainly deserve, but several players from the 50's & 60's  would be hard pressed to even make the roster of a nba team now. SeemsToMe 
    Posted by SeemsToMe[/QUOTE]
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Seems....please, my friend....if Shasha can make an NBA roster.....especially the roster of a hugely talented multi championship team of today....believe me, there were dozens of more talented (white) bench guys back in the day....
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Duke
     
    In Russell's 1st year in the nba (1956) using the top 40 players in points per game(thats  an average  of 5 players from 8 teams) .825% were white Americans.

    In 2009 out of the top 150 players(30 teams times 5 players) only 9 0f them were white Americans(.06%.  That doesn't say much for white American's when it comes to playing basketball. By theway, Sasha is a International player and they do slightly better at.16%. International players didn't join the nba until the 1980's.

    SeemsToMe
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Good post "Seems".....yes, there were more white guys in Russ's first year....but look how many of those guys are also in the "Top 50" list. Just because they were white didn't mean they weren't great players....were are talking names like Bob Cousey, Tommy Heinson. Dolph Schayes....I compared the league during Russell's entire career...as guys like The Big O, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, and, of course Wilt came into the league a few years after Russell, the league was soon dominated by blacks....go back to the '58/59 season and look at the stars...

    Top 5 in points scored:
    Wilt #1
    Baylor #3

    MPG:
    Wilt #1
    Russell #2
    Baylor #5

    Rebounds:
    Wilt #1
    Russell #2
    Baylor #4

    RPG:
    Wilt #1
    Russ #2
    Baylor #4
    Naulls #5

    There were a lot of dominant blacks in the mid to late '50s....the league was evelving....as I said....29 of the Top 50 played during Russell's time...16 were blacks.. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Seams,

    There are many contributing factors that make comparisons between eras extremely difficult.

    Rule differences -Mass is more important today than before because much more contact is allowed.

    Skill level. - While the Dunk is considered a very important part of today's game, largely because of rule change that allows large players to move people around, it was not as important in Russell's time. Players actually had to be able to shoot from distance. Something that Shaq an Howard can not do.

    There are many more teams in the league. The number of players in the NBA  has increased dramatically since the sixties, much faster than the rise in population.

    There are substantially more black players in the NBA. While this may be due to better athletic ability, it is also affected by other factors. Many disadvantaged blacks and whites see professional sports as one of the only ways to rise above their surrounding. Professional sports is a high risk career, and people with other opportunities may choose another path. Is it not interesting that the number of hispanic players in baseball have increased over the years while the number of american blacks has decreased? Race is not the only issue.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    In taking a look at the dominant white men who played back in the day....just look at the Top 50 list once again

    Paul Arizon
    Rick Barry
    Bob Cousy
    Bob Petitt
    Billy Cunningham
    Dave DeBusschere
    John Havlicek
    Jerry Lucas
    Dolph Schayes
    Bill Sharmon
    Jerry West

    all Russell contemporaries.....and that is just taking names from the list....there were other white stars such as Jack Twyman, George Yardley and Tom Gola.....even before Russell...guys like Jim Pollard and George Mikan...
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Duke and TeamUmbutu

      As a 1 finger typist it will take me a while to respond to all your post.But I will. Comparing generations in basketball is a favorite passtime for me.

    SeemsToMe
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Duke and TeamUmbutu

     http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1963&year_max=1963&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=80&height_max=99&lg_id=NBA&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts_per_g
     
     This will be a comparison between the 62-63 and 09-10 season. the 09-10 printout to follow.
    Seems
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Bill Russell and today's athletes

    Looks like you are putting yourself into this topic.....good for you my friend...it's always fun sharing perspectives...
     

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