Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    Many players make their reputation by winning scoring titles, rebound titles, and taking the last shot. Some players focus on winning and playing well with others as the primary goal. Who is the better player?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHEisCHE. Show CHEisCHE's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    I will take Rondo style over individual statistics.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    In Response to Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?:
    [QUOTE]I will take Rondo style over individual statistics.
    Posted by CHEisCHE[/QUOTE]

    Nice post Che!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    In Response to Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?:
    [QUOTE]Many players make their reputation by winning scoring titles, rebound titles, and taking the last shot. Some players focus on winning and playing well with others as the primary goal. Who is the better player?
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    We have 3 of the best.  KG, PP, and Ray have all given up the limelight in order to be successful. I have no doubt that Paul could still average 25 pts and Ray could average 22.  I don't think KG could put up the same numbers he use to be he is invaluable in what he does.  I do think Rondo wants numbers, specifically assists which is fine for what he need.  Along with SA we have to two most unselfish teams in pro ball.  Miami on the other hand I don't think have sacrificed so much. They still touch the ball a ton and get theirs.  I will take our team over any in the league.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jeezem. Show jeezem's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    All 3 of the big 3 are having career years in many categories.  Playing as a team can improve your individual statistics if you look at the right ones.  Those are the one's that count too if your contract is up and you go onto the free market.  It isn't just about points, but the whole package of what you do on the floor - and being seen as a team player.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    I agree guys.

    Look at Kobe, a great player, but wanting to be the best at any cost, cost him the services of Shaq, and then KG. Yes the Lakers have won championships, but Kobe's act has cost the team as much as it helped the team. Sunday was a perfect example when Kobe went one on five, and lost.

    The media loves statistics, and players that get statistics seem to get more glory that team players. Who is truly more valuable, the player that makes the whole more than the sum of the parts, and wins, or the player that puts up fourty points in a losing effort?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    The NBA has always had stars, and great individual performers. The three that come to mind as leading the charge for the individual stardom are probably, Wilt, Jordan, and Kobe. The guys that probably leads the charge for team performance first are probably Russell, Bird, and KG, all Celtics.

    Before the NBA focus on Stars in the nineties, many people considered individual performers to be inferior to team plays as winners. Since the eighties, Jordan and Kobe have won multiple championships, but only with great teams. Jordan did not win until the great Celtic, Lakers and Piston teams were gone. Kobe did not win until he was surrounded by other great players, and the best team, the Celtics had crippling injuries.

    So while Kobe goes for the spotlight, and tries to claim that he is the best player, the Celtics starting five win the title of best team.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHEisCHE. Show CHEisCHE's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    My thought was, in the game of basketball PG usually the ball hero. Why? as the ball past the PG, it goes to forward or the center and most of the time will never comes back to PG. The stage of the ball movement is less and less once it reaches near the goal. (Not always but this is the process).
    I remember Bird said once you pass the ball the Mchale, you will never see it back like a black hole. To me, ball hero is rare to forward & center position.

    So, If you will ask me who is the ball hero, I could not think of any position except the PG. The only ball hero that I know in the current league is, Billups, steve nash and Rondo.
    The rest of the PG are shooting for individual stats.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    Interesting point of view.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PierceIsTheTruth. Show PierceIsTheTruth's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    i will take a team player and winner then someone who cares about their stats. are you trying to bring back the old russell vs chamberlin arguement?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bilalkazmi. Show bilalkazmi's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    In Response to Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?:
    [QUOTE]I agree guys. Look at Kobe, a great player, but wanting to be the best at any cost, cost him the services of Shaq, and then KG. Yes the Lakers have won championships, but Kobe's act has cost the team as much as it helped the team. Sunday was a perfect example when Kobe went one on five, and lost. The media loves statistics, and players that get statistics seem to get more glory that team players. Who is truly more valuable, the player that makes the whole more than the sum of the parts, and wins, or the player that puts up fourty points in a losing effort?
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    I agree and I disagree. 

    The answer to your high-level question depends on the make-up of the team that player belongs to.  You can argue that Kobe is one of the most selfish players in the league, yet the guy wears 5 NBA rings.  Twice he was the finals MVP.  In the playoffs, his team has won many games on his back.  With the Lakers philosophy and personnel, it has worked for them.  For Kobe to be effective at what he does, I do believe he needs to play selfish ball.  I believe he thrives on it.  He is somewhat of a rhythm player.  Once he gets hot, he wants to stay that way, and his team players have no problem riding his hot hand.  And he gets hot more often than most players in the league.

    With a team like the Celtics, Kobe would be a bad fit.  No one would tolerate his hero ball because it goes against the offensive philosophy completely.  Although, at times we do rid Ray's or Paul hot hand.  When either one of these get hot, Rondo looks for them repeatedly.  We love riding their hot hand.  Its just that Ray and Paul don't get hot as often as Kobe does.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from bilalkazmi. Show bilalkazmi's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    In Response to Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?:
    [QUOTE]The NBA has always had stars, and great individual performers. The three that come to mind as leading the charge for the individual stardom are probably, Wilt, Jordan, and Kobe. The guys that probably leads the charge for team performance first are probably Russell, Bird, and KG, all Celtics. Before the NBA focus on Stars in the nineties, many people considered individual performers to be inferior to team plays as winners. Since the eighties, Jordan and Kobe have won multiple championships, but only with great teams. Jordan did not win until the great Celtic, Lakers and Piston teams were gone. Kobe did not win until he was surrounded by other great players, and the best team, the Celtics had crippling injuries. So while Kobe goes for the spotlight, and tries to claim that he is the best player, the Celtics starting five win the title of best team.
    Posted by TeamUmbutu[/QUOTE]

    I partially agree, but:

    1.  Jordan won after the great Celtic, Laker and Piston teams were gone.  But, do remember that Jordan was drafted by a below average team, and with below average teams you need time to build them up.  Unlike both Bird and Magic, Jordan was not drafted by a time filled with studs.  Many will argue that it was just a coincidence that Jordan starting winning after the play of Celtics and Lakers started to dimish.  Who knows which team would have defeated whom between the Bulls in their prime vs the Celtics in their prime vs. the Lakers in their prime.  What the Chicago Bulls managed to do is in many ways unparalleled in the new NBA era.  They won 2 three-peats.  Had Jordan not decided to retire twice despite having gas left in the tank, who knows, the Bulls might have won 7 or 8 championships in a row. 

    2.  In the history of the NBA, usually great players need other great players to win championships.  So, it is not a knock against Kobe that he needed Shaq or Gasol.  Duncan needed Robinson, and Ginobli.  Shaq needed Kobe and Wade.  KG needed Pierce and Ray.  Jordan needed Pippen.  Magic needed Kareem.  Bird needed McHale.  All great players need other great players to help them win. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    bilalkazmi,

    I see your point but I don't know if I agree with the history.

    When Bird came to the Celtics he was responsible, for the biggest year to year turn around in NBA history, a worst to first scenario. McHale was a bench  player. Since that time, that record has only been beaten twice. First by the team oriented Tim Duncan when he joined the Spurs, and then when team oriented KG joined the Celtics in 2007-2008.

    When Kobe lost Shaq, the Lakers were not terrible, but "the great player" could not beat great teams. It is true that when Gasol joined the team they became much better, however, they played another hero team in Orlando, and a hobbled team in the Celtics. The devil is in the details.

    The biggest problem with Hero players and hero teams, is that the hero has to perform or the team loses. If you can stop the hero you usually win. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from boomp4. Show boomp4's posts

    Re: Hero ball player vs. Team ball player - Who is the better player?

    Team play is the traditional Celtic way to play and began with Red. 
     

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