Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  You do know that 4 of these players are in the hall of fame, and 2 Gervin and Maravich, are in the top 50 of all time don't you!!  If Danny had not traded for Ray and KG, you could say the same thing about Pierce, as you're saying about Antoine!!  P.S. Antoine wasn't better than Wilt, Michael, or Larry either!!
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]


    Maybe the issue is how you define "great".   AW is not great in the sense that he delivered championships.  He cannot be compared with Bird, Russell, Jo Jo, Havlicek, MCHale, Parish, etc.  By that definition, he is NOT a great Celtic.  if the measure is a person who played his career in Boston and helped make his team al that he could and was a leader of his team, getting as much out of them as possible - perhaps even overachieving?  By that measure, he is a great Celtic.  He led his team by delivering more rebounds than all of his teammates, the most important assists, shot the big shots or handled the ball to get the ball to Pierce who shot the big shots, etc.  Took stupid 3's, yes.   So, he's a "favorite" Celtic because he was the heart and soul of his team.  Paul has more scoring talent.  AW had more all around talent and was more of a leader.  Had they gotten a Ray Allen and KG to play with them, we would have seen a different AW - but we'll never know now.

    So, I call him an all time Celtic "Favorite" even if he's not "great" because his team never won a championship.

    Key point already made - the difference in Pierce and AW in results is SOLELY who they played with.   Paul had a pretty BAD reputation until he got to play with Ray and KG.  Then people started recognizing what he brought to the table.  Before that - he was often labeled talented but selfish and immature, etc.   Remember the headband thing in the playoffs and George Karl's accusations about him in international ball?   I never believed it but that was Paul's rep until he got to play with other bad players.  All of a sudden, he was "a good defensive player, a good teammate who only cares about winning, etc".  Guess who else would be the same if he got to play with these guys?  Guess who was a valuable member of a championship team (Miami Heat) because he played with better players?
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    Oops...."got to play with other "good" players".  Typo.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : Of course I do.  Getting into the HOF and winning championships show NO correlation whatsoever.  These are players that could NOT lead their team to the promised land.  The thread is about AW being a Celtics great.  If these guys are in the HOF, and could not win the whole thing even once, how can AW even be in the discussion of one of the greats when his franchise ONLY goes by championships?? He is not an All-Time great or a Celtics great. And, by the way, if you ADD the number of titles won by Wilt, Michael and Larry, you still are one shy of Russ!!
    Posted by hedleylamarr[/QUOTE]

     Are you sure Russ won one more title than Wilt, Michael, and Larry?
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : Maybe the issue is how you define "great".   AW is not great in the sense that he delivered championships.  He cannot be compared with Bird, Russell, Jo Jo, Havlicek, MCHale, Parish, etc.  By that definition, he is NOT a great Celtic.  if the measure is a person who played his career in Boston and helped make his team al that he could and was a leader of his team, getting as much out of them as possible - perhaps even overachieving?  By that measure, he is a great Celtic.  He led his team by delivering more rebounds than all of his teammates, the most important assists, shot the big shots or handled the ball to get the ball to Pierce who shot the big shots, etc.  Took stupid 3's, yes.   So, he's a "favorite" Celtic because he was the heart and soul of his team.  Paul has more scoring talent.  AW had more all around talent and was more of a leader.  Had they gotten a Ray Allen and KG to play with them, we would have seen a different AW - but we'll never know now. So, I call him an all time Celtic "Favorite" even if he's not "great" because his team never won a championship. Key point already made - the difference in Pierce and AW in results is SOLELY who they played with.   Paul had a pretty BAD reputation until he got to play with Ray and KG.  Then people started recognizing what he brought to the table.  Before that - he was often labeled talented but selfish and immature, etc.   Remember the headband thing in the playoffs and George Karl's accusations about him in international ball?   I never believed it but that was Paul's rep until he got to play with other bad players.  All of a sudden, he was "a good defensive player, a good teammate who only cares about winning, etc".  Guess who else would be the same if he got to play with these guys?  Guess who was a valuable member of a championship team (Miami Heat) because he played with better players?
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

     Your list of Celtic greats included Paul Silas, and Cedric Maxwell, i wouldn't call them all time Celtic greats, but to you they were.  i also wouldn't call your list shameful because they were on it. To me Antione had about as much ability as anyone who ever played for the C's, no he didn't win a title, but i think he did his best to win as many games as he could, and for anyone who thinks he didn't make the team better, look at the teams record before antoine was brought back, and after he came back to the C's, the year we lost to the Pacers, in what i refer to as the daiper debacle!!
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    KyCeltic,

    I'm with you.  We're in the same place.  Antoine will always be the villain to many fans even though he did his best for them and loved Boston.  When he came back to Boston that year, he drove that team to overachieve.  Won something like 10 straight games when he came back.  Wasn't that an exciting year right up until that last "diaper debacle"?

    By the way, was that my post you were responding to or someone else's?  I don't think I had Silas and Max mentioned in my comments (although I love them both, Max more that Silas).
     
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    [QUOTE]KyCeltic, I'm with you.  We're in the same place.  Antoine will always be the villain to many fans even though he did his best for them and loved Boston.  When he came back to Boston that year, he drove that team to overachieve.  Won something like 10 straight games when he came back.  Wasn't that an exciting year right up until that last "diaper debacle"? By the way, was that my post you were responding to or someone else's?  I don't think I had Silas and Max mentioned in my comments (although I love them both, Max more that Silas).
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

     I'm sorry, that was not your list!!
     
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    [QUOTE]This is one crazy thread. Walker was never a great Celtic.  Maybe if he had been a Sacramento King or Raptor but a Celtic great?  Look at the history, it is saying that during the low point of the greatest team in sports history Antoine Walker with his selfish and unteam like play was one of the Greats.  A Celtic great who made you almost forget about the dynasty that preceded this jerk.  And make no mistake the guy was jerk.  It wasn't that long ago don't you all remember?
    Posted by concord27[/QUOTE]

    The past is often seen though rose colored glasses.


     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  You do know that 4 of these players are in the hall of fame, and 2 Gervin and Maravich, are in the top 50 of all time don't you!!  If Danny had not traded for Ray and KG, you could say the same thing about Pierce, as you're saying about Antoine!!  P.S. Antoine wasn't better than Wilt, Michael, or Larry either!!
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    You cannot justify ranking Pierce outside a top 10 for all-time Celtics greats just like you cannot justify ranking Antoine inside the top 15.

    I have Pierce 6. MAYBE someone can argue he be more like 8-9.

    I have 'Toine in the mid 20's. MAYBE some can argue him up to 17-18.

    There is no way to equally compare them as Celtic greats without sounding ignorant about the franchise or the sport of basketball.
     
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    [QUOTE] Name a player other than Larry Bird, who averaged more Points, rebounds, and assist's then Antoine Walker, in their first 4 years with the Celtics!!
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    His first four years were fine.  The rest of his career wasn't that great.  You know that right?

     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : You cannot justify ranking Pierce outside a top 10 for all-time Celtics greats just like you cannot justify ranking Antoine inside the top 15. I have Pierce 6. MAYBE someone can argue he be more like 8-9. I have 'Toine in the mid 20's. MAYBE some can argue him up to 17-18. There is no way to equally compare them as Celtic greats without sounding ignorant about the franchise or the sport of basketball.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

     You may not, but i can!  I may think you're ignorant for putting Paul Silas on a list of all times Celtic greats, and you may think he belongs there. Just because you have Antoine in the mid 20s doesn't mean much to me. Charles Barkley laughed when someone suggested Pierce was a top 10 Celtic.  i would say he probably knows more about it than you do.
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  Are you sure Russ won one more title than Wilt, Michael, and Larry?
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    I forgot Wilt won ONE before he became a laker.  So, I amend my last sentence to say, ' If you add Wilt (2), Michael (6) and Larry (3), you TIE Russ!!

    Happy now?
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    Maybe time to end this thread.  Antoine will always be one of the most controversial Celtics because he delivered a bit of everything except a championship (he was an allstar, he was a Celtic who loved the franchise, but he underachieved in many ways, he frustrated and tantalized fans all at the same time, he gave us wins when we thought we couldn't get any, he was associated with a dark time in the franchise history, etc, etc, etc).    He lived and played in the ML Carr era, the Rick Pitino era, and the jim O'brien era.  He's the representative for all that was wrong with the Celtics while Pitino and that other guy named Chris were in charge.  Danny came in and he started to redeem himself but it was too late.   

    Some of us will always love him and some will always hate him.  Perhaps no other Celtic can deliver such a polarized set of opinions.   

    Time to move on and stop arguing about our difference in opinion and perspective since we've likely said it all.
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    A Celtic Great is a great player that won a championship playing for the Celtics. Having 4 good years with the Celtics without winning a single championship does not make you a Celtic Great. 

    If the Celtics win another championship the Great Big Baby will be considered as one of the great Celtics 6th man.
     
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    [QUOTE]A Celtic Great is a great player that won a championship playing for the Celtics. Having 4 good years with the Celtics without winning a single championship does not make you a Celtic Great.  If the Celtics win another championship the Great Big Baby will be considered as one of the great Celtics 6th man.
    Posted by BigBaby11[/QUOTE]

    Big baby isn't "great" either.  Great means "being superior, majestic, transcendent, or divine".  Baby has a nice little jumper and draws charges well.  I don't think that quite gets him to great.

     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  You may not, but i can!  I may think you're ignorant for putting Paul Silas on a list of all times Celtic greats, and you may think he belongs there. Just because you have Antoine in the mid 20s doesn't mean much to me. Charles Barkley laughed when someone suggested Pierce was a top 10 Celtic.  i would say he probably knows more about it than you do.
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    Chuck the entertainer changes his opinions day by day, quoting him is what is funny. Tommmy, Larry bird, Ainge these Celtic greats put Paul easily in the top 10. Media members who are not showmen and are unbiased also rank him up there.

    Your claim of Walker as anywhere NEAR Pierce is pitiful and 100% false.

    My points are backed by facts and stats, yours are not
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : Big baby isn't "great" either.  Great means " being superior, majestic, transcendent, or divine".  Baby has a nice little jumper and draws charges well.  I don't think that quite gets him to great.
    Posted by Icon11[/QUOTE]

    At least in the contemporary the Big Baby is "greater" than starting PF of the Idaho Stampede. 
     
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    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : At least in the contemporary the Big Baby is "greater" than starting PF of the Idaho Stampede. 
    Posted by BigBaby11[/QUOTE]

    I totally agree.

     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?



     Lets see a fact where Danny Ainge, larry Bird, or Kevin Mchale, says Pierce is a top 10 Celtic. It is a fact that Barkley said he wasn't. So i'm starting to see anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, must be ignorant, an entertainer, or baised!!
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? :  You may not, but i can!  I may think you're ignorant for putting Paul Silas on a list of all times Celtic greats, and you may think he belongs there. Just because you have Antoine in the mid 20s doesn't mean much to me. Charles Barkley laughed when someone suggested Pierce was a top 10 Celtic.  i would say he probably knows more about it than you do.
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    You got me on Silas

    I need to move him down 5-6 spots.

    I thought he was a 14p and 11r guy for 6-7 years. He only played 4 in Boston.

    Granted he was an 11.5 points 12.3 rebound per game monster those 4 years who won 2 titles, was all defensive 1st or 2nd each of those 4 years and made an all-star team.

    I'd rather know I'd have 4 years of that Paul Silas when building a team than the First 4 years of Antoine was good... which were his 4 best when he gave us 19.6 points, 9.2 rebounds and 3.3 assists per game.
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    These are the guys in my 18-23 range. These are the guys you can compare Antoine to...

    Ed Macauley - 6 yrs - 7,800 pts - 3,500 rebs - 1,500 asts

    3 all-NBA 1st teams, 1 all-NBa 2nd team, 1 ring (w/ StL)

    Reggie Lewis
    - 6 yrs - 7,900 pts - 1,900 rebs - 1,150 asts - 600 stls

    1 all-star game, 0 rings

    Cedric Maxwell - 8 yrs - 8,200 pts - 3,000 rebs - 1,250 asts - 550 stls

    2 championships, 1 finals MVP

    Antoine Walker
    - 7.3 years - 11,300 pts - 4,700 rebs - 2,100 asts - 800 stls

    3 all-star games, 1 title (w/ Mia)
     
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    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE] Lets see a fact where Danny Ainge, larry Bird, or Kevin Mchale, says Pierce is a top 10 Celtic. It is a fact that Barkley said he wasn't. So i'm starting to see anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, must be ignorant, an entertainer, or baised!!
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    So you saw Barkley sniff or role his eyes once and that is somehow better than everyone here knowing multiple times in broadcasts and interviews the celtic greats, tommy and Mike, mnay experts etc. have said these things about Pierce???

    Now you are giving me homework?

    Ha.

    Your ignorance is simply that. I don't throw that word around unless I mean it. and when it comes to this arguments stats and facts PROVE it.

    By the end of this season Pierce will have 10,000 more points, 2,000 more rebounds, 1,500 more assists, 500 more steals, SIX more all-star games, 1 or two more titles and finals MVP awards, 5-6 more all-nba teams (Toine 0) in his 6+ more years as a Celtic.

    Ranking them BOTH around 13-15 all-time is some one of the most ignorant and pathetic trash I've ever seen a 'fan' of this club try to pawn off as anywhere close to being true.

    go sell your garbage elsewhere ky... you are a joke
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

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    [QUOTE]These are the guys in my 18-23 range. These are the guys you can compare Antoine to... Ed Macauley - 6 yrs - 7,800 pts - 3,500 rebs - 1,500 asts 3 all-NBA 1st teams, 1 all-NBa 2nd team, 1 ring (w/ StL) Reggie Lewis - 6 yrs - 7,900 pts - 1,900 rebs - 1,150 asts - 600 stls 1 all-star game, 0 rings Cedric Maxwell - 8 yrs - 8,200 pts - 3,000 rebs - 1,250 asts - 550 stls 2 championships, 1 finals MVP Antoine Walker - 7.3 years - 11,300 pts - 4,700 rebs - 2,100 asts - 800 stls 3 all-star games, 1 title (w/ Mia)
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]
    I agree.  I said earlier he was Max until Bird arrived!!
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : I agree.  I said earlier he was Max until Bird arrived!!
    Posted by hedleylamarr[/QUOTE]

    Perfect call.

    'Toine played 2 years as the best player 1 year as the co-best player when Pierce was a 21 year old rookie. Then PP was better and 'Toine was soon gone.

    Max played his rookie year on the McAdoo/Wilkes debacle team... then spent 1 year as the best player before 23 year old rookie Larry Bird arrived and was instantly better.

    By age 23 Pierce was a 24 points 6 rebound 3 assist 2 steal guy who shot 45% and 38% taking 18.5 shots a game.

    Toine was only a year older than Paul but was chucking up 21.2 shots to score 1 less point a game. Shooting 41% and 36%.

    Now if Paul was given a C like Parish and a PF like McHale... then 'Toine could have been celebrated like Max was. the 4th or 5th best player on a champion who played within himself (hint more passing and intangibles, less 3pt shots) and maybe would have been a 14p-6r-4a-1s guy we all loved like we did Max from 80-84 (we kinda didn't love him in 85).

    Great comparison... I put them both in the same range all-time with Max's two rings and 1 finals MVP clearly trumping 'Toine's 3 all-star games and superior overall stats.
     
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    In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great? : I agree.  I said earlier he was Max until Bird arrived!!
    Posted by hedleylamarr[/QUOTE]
     You've also been wrong before!!
     
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    Re: Is Antoine Walker a Celtic Great?

    I would put Silas/Max just ahead of Toine and rank Toine ahead of Reggie and Macauley.

    After them comes guys like Don Nelson and Satch Sanders with more years/rings but far less talent/stats.
     

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