Owners Learn Their Lesson

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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ShepherdCall. Show ShepherdCall's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    Good post....

    The same thing with Tony Allen; after what he did in the playoff run the tried to offer him two year and only came up with the third year when Memphis did.  But the tone was also, let's take care of Paul, Doc, Ray, then go to the second tier guys...  all the while making statements in the press about the need for a back-up for Ray and Paul.

    I think Wyc's admission is that they won't do that again.  I also think Doc's message of "loyalty" is key also as a certain admission.  

    How many huddles have we heard Doc talk about trust, trust, trust, and then we do these things with the core....




     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]Good post.... The same thing with Tony Allen; after what he did in the playoff run the tried to offer him two year and only came up with the third year when Memphis did.  But the tone was also, let's take care of Paul, Doc, Ray, then go to the second tier guys...  all the while making statements in the press about the need for a back-up for Ray and Paul. I think Wyc's admission is that they won't do that again.  I also think Doc's message of "loyalty" is key also as a certain admission.   How many huddles have we heard Doc talk about trust, trust, trust, and then we do these things with the core....
    Posted by ShepherdCall[/QUOTE]

    They are way over the cap and have 9 or so players under contract - according to even the existing CBA how exactly would they be opening up the checkbook?

    They can pay their own players whatever they want but being over the cap, they can only pay league minimums, I believe their MLE is currently occupied by Jermaine O'Neal.  So where do they slot these free agents?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mployee8. Show Mployee8's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : They are way over the cap and have 9 or so players under contract - according to even the existing CBA how exactly would they be opening up the checkbook? They can pay their own players whatever they want but being over the cap, they can only pay league minimums, I believe their MLE is currently occupied by Jermaine O'Neal.  So where do they slot these free agents?
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

    Dudder, don't you know how a S&T works? They have Davis, Kristic and Green available for S&T's as well as their own core for trades if they decide to go that route before ever mentioning the MLE, LLE and Vet Min contracts .... Wake up to reality, their hands are not tied as you would suggest especially in a season where other teams may be looking to dump salary pre-CBA revisions. Some crazy sheet has gone down in the past when teams are under the gun to dump ... remember Beasley and Jefferson?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : Dudder, don't you know how a S&T works? They have Davis, Kristic and Green available for S&T's as well as their own core for trades if they decide to go that route before ever mentioning the MLE, LLE and Vet Min contracts .... Wake up to reality, their hands are not tied as you would suggest especially in a season where other teams may be looking to dump salary pre-CBA revisions. Some crazy sheet has gone down in the past when teams are under the gun to dump ... remember Beasley and Jefferson?
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]


    I know I know but I think you S&T c rap for c rap......  I understand they can get the MLE, etc.  What have they gotten for the MLE recently 'sheed sitting on the couch with a bong, a life time supply of twinkies and doritos to wash it down with, then the inimitable Jermaine O'Neal, etc.

    Teams may be looking to dump salaries?  To teams already over the cap.......  

    I think when push comes to shove there is going to be a lot of disappointment. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from notrade. Show notrade's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    You need to learn your lesson.  There either won't be a season ala hockey or their hands will be tied by more restrictive rules in free agency.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]You need to learn your lesson.  There either won't be a season ala hockey or their hands will be tied by more restrictive rules in free agency.
    Posted by notrade[/QUOTE]

    Could not agree more.  I think it will be a long lockout during which we will find out that there are lots of teams losing money and we already know the owners are looking to cut salaries by an average of 40%.  Max contracts will be for lower amounts and I think the best thing of all is that it will keep kids in school longer.  GMs will have to watch money more closely and will not be drafting players for potential, they won't have the cap space to have payroll sitting on the bench waiting to develop.  Plus I think the league is going to shoot for 2 years out of high school, so no more one and done.  I think things are going to change pretty dramatically.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mployee8. Show Mployee8's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson


    There is a window of opportunity until that happens for teams that can take advantage of those looking to dump before 7/1 ... worse case, they get a hard cap and have to waive or trade a body but most likely they will pay a Luxury Tax for one year until they trade or rework KG & RA for another run.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]There is a window of opportunity until that happens for teams that can take advantage of those looking to dump before 7/1 ... worse case, they get a hard cap and have to waive or trade a body but most likely they will pay a Luxury Tax for one year until they trade or rework KG & RA for another run.
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]

    They are 14 million over the current cap of 58 million, the league has discussed a hard cap at 58 million.  By definition there is no luxury tax because you cannot be over the cap. Just like the Bruins this year, they had to trade players for draft picks to get under the cap.

    KG and Ray are in the last year of their contracts and as Danny said not knowing what the new CBA will look like they may be hamstrung in terms of moves until 2012.  People keep pointing to 2012 where the Cs will re-take over the league.  That will be the year in which they have 4 players under contract - a point guard that cannot shoot, Paul Pierce near the end, and Avery Bradley, and this year's draft pick.  They will be significantly below the cap then but will not have any players that would attract other players here, etc.

    I asked in another thread if someone would please list the situations in the NBA where a team with a solid core contended for several years, broke up that core, and remained contenders by retooling.  Would you please make that list?  It should not take more than 2 seconds to come up with the list.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mployee8. Show Mployee8's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : They are 14 million over the current cap of 58 million, the league has discussed a hard cap at 58 million.  By definition there is no luxury tax because you cannot be over the cap. Just like the Bruins this year, they had to trade players for draft picks to get under the cap. KG and Ray are in the last year of their contracts and as Danny said not knowing what the new CBA will look like they may be hamstrung in terms of moves until 2012.  People keep pointing to 2012 where the Cs will re-take over the league.  That will be the year in which they have 4 players under contract - a point guard that cannot shoot, Paul Pierce near the end, and Avery Bradley, and this year's draft pick.  They will be significantly below the cap then but will not have any players that would attract other players here, etc. I asked in another thread if someone would please list the situations in the NBA where a team with a solid core contended for several years, broke up that core, and remained contenders by retooling.  Would you please make that list?  It should not take more than 2 seconds to come up with the list.
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

    Oh, good ... then Miami will only have their core six for next year and need to start cutting in 2012!

    The GM of the year has to win it all this year or else ... One and Done!

    Please .... Think about it ... LA, Miami, Dallas (bye-bye Tyson Chandler) & Boston with NY & NJ on the cusp of big moves, well maybe not NY for awhile ... hahaha

    Wake Up Dudder!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : Oh, good ... then Miami will only have their core six for next year and need to start cutting in 2012! Wake up!
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]

    I am wide awake.  You have no idea what is going to happen, I at least can make deductions about will likely happen given what has been speculated.

    In the salary cap era, please make the list of teams that have a strong core together for several years, contends and even wins a title or more, then when the core dissolves, the team simply re-tools and the winning just continues....... again... make the list, it should not take more than 2 seconds.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mployee8. Show Mployee8's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : I am wide awake.  You have no idea what is going to happen, I at least can make deductions about will likely happen given what has been speculated. In the salary cap era, please make the list of teams that have a strong core together for several years, contends and even wins a title or more, then when the core dissolves, the team simply re-tools and the winning just continues....... again... make the list, it should not take more than 2 seconds.
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

    The NBA isn't gonna bite their nose off to spite their face ... follow the $. This is typical tough talk to get concessions from the players. No way will they institute a hard cap without a transition period or some declining cap over three years but I doubt the players will ever agree to pay and trade restrictions anyway especially for veteran players. Sure they may change the rules for draftees re mins/maxes, length and no-cut contracts but the vets won't give into those same rules. They may agree to some maximum salary reductions, but if there is gonna be the right to break contracts the players will want opt-out options as well. The owners need more flexibility in trading or cutting their mistakes not less. Therefore it makes more sense for players to give into smaller maximums with cuts for lack of performance in return for opt-outs and higher caps ... just saying.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Shamrocks4ever. Show Shamrocks4ever's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : I am wide awake.  You have no idea what is going to happen, I at least can make deductions about will likely happen given what has been speculated. In the salary cap era, please make the list of teams that have a strong core together for several years, contends and even wins a title or more, then when the core dissolves, the team simply re-tools and the winning just continues....... again... make the list, it should not take more than 2 seconds.
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

      It depends on how strictly you want to define "re-tools and the winning just continues."  If you mean the team gets rid of everyone and wins a championship again the following year, of course nobody has done that.  If you mean that most of the key players leave but the team re-tools and contends for a championship within 5 years (without ever becoming truly terrible in the interim), two examples would be (man I hate this, but it's true) Miami and the Lakers.  Other than Wade and Haslem, I don't think the Heat have anyone left from their '06 title team, but here they are 5 years later on the cusp of making it back to the finals.  The Lakers pretty much broke up the band (except for Kobe - even Fisher left for a couple of years) after losing the 2004 Finals but were back in the finals in 2008 and won in 2009.
      So, it HAS been done.  It's not easy, and most teams don't do it, but it is possible. 
      (For that matter how many teams TOTAL have won a championship in the last 20 years?  Let's see - Chicago, Houston, San Antonio, the Lakers, the Heat, and the Celtics - a whole 6 teams out of what, a 31-team league?  Most teams never even get close, so appreciate every minute when your team is at that level.)
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from wfdog. Show wfdog's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : The NBA isn't gonna bite their nose off to spite their face ... follow the $. This is typical tough talk to get concessions from the players. No way will they institute a hard cap without a transition period or some declining cap over three years but I doubt the players will ever agree to pay and trade restrictions anyway especially for veteran players. Sure they may change the rules for draftees re mins/maxes, length and no-cut contracts but the vets won't give into those same rules. They may agree to some maximum salary reductions, but if there is gonna be the right to break contracts the players will want opt-out options as well. The owners need more flexibility in trading or cutting their mistakes not less. Therefore it makes more sense for players to give into smaller maximums with cuts for lack of performance in return for opt-outs and higher caps ... just saying.
    Posted by Mployee8[/QUOTE]

    Agree MP8. I've heard that 'IF' a hard cap gets approved that it will still be awhile before it gets implemented.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    Of course the league is talking about a hard cap.  But, that's what they should do to set the stage.  In negotiations, however, everyone compromises.  There's likely to be a transition period or a several year step down to a harder cap.  in addition, the players are not going to just 'accept' a reduction in salaries, despite what the owners ask for.

    Finally, many players are under contract.  Those contracts will extend beyond the current agreement and any cuts in pay will likely only affect future contracts.

    So, Dudder, none of us know what's really going to happen, but its LIKELY there will be some compromise.  

    BTW, I count 8 players under contract (KG, PP, Ray has the option, Rondo, JON who may retire, Bradley, and Shaq at the minimum if he doesn't retire).  
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    Dudder, you asked above:

    "I asked in another thread if someone would please list the situations in the NBA where a team with a solid core contended for several years, broke up that core, and remained contenders by retooling.  Would you please make that list?  It should not take more than 2 seconds to come up with the list."

    The answer is the Dallas Mavericks.  Since they went to the NBA finals in 2006, they have been contenders every year.  However, they have completely retooled.  They have only TWO players (Dirk and Jason Terry) that were on the team that lost to Miami about 5 years ago.

    Also, the San Antonio Spurs.  Note that they only have 3 players from their last championship but have contended each year (Duncan, Ginobli, and Parker).  They have significantly retooled through European players, draft, and inexpensive free agents.  While they lost this year, they did have the best regular season record and if ginobli had not broke his arm, they would have fared better in the playoffs.

    It does happen.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from genaro008. Show genaro008's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    It will take two years to impliment a hard cap. If the do vote for a hard cap it wont take effect till 2012 or 13
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mployee8. Show Mployee8's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : Agree MP8. I've heard that 'IF' a hard cap gets approved that it will still be awhile before it gets implemented.
    Posted by wfdog[/QUOTE]

    If it isn't delayed the NBA can kiss off their lucrative TV/Cable contracts ... what broadcaster/advertiser wants to sponser Indiana vs Toronto every night? Herr Stern will be dining on the goose that laid the golden egg. Though, talent more evenly distributed eventually could be more competitive and NFL-like and work out longer term but that takes years.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Qdaddy. Show Qdaddy's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]If the owners only gave James Posey that 4-year deal then there would be no what ifs or what could have been.  You don't break up the core of the team if you just won a championship!
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    So what does that tell you about your teams owner's and GM?

    I'll answer that...

    They're no Jerry Buss and Mitch Kupchak!!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 21st. Show 21st's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : So what does that tell you about your teams owner's and GM? I'll answer that... They're no Jerry Buss and Mitch Kupchak!!
    Posted by Qdaddy[/QUOTE]

    Kupchak and Buss

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prakash. Show prakash's posts

    Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson

    In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Owners Learn Their Lesson : They are 14 million over the current cap of 58 million, the league has discussed a hard cap at 58 million.  By definition there is no luxury tax because you cannot be over the cap. Just like the Bruins this year, they had to trade players for draft picks to get under the cap. KG and Ray are in the last year of their contracts and as Danny said not knowing what the new CBA will look like they may be hamstrung in terms of moves until 2012.  People keep pointing to 2012 where the Cs will re-take over the league.  That will be the year in which they have 4 players under contract - a point guard that cannot shoot, Paul Pierce near the end, and Avery Bradley, and this year's draft pick.  They will be significantly below the cap then but will not have any players that would attract other players here, etc.
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

    Why are we focused on just one aspect of the new CBA: a hard cap.  Why don't we also consider other elements being discussed.  Amnesty for one contract.  2-3 years to implement the cap.

    I am not sure if the Celts are allowed to do S&T before the current CBA expires.  If they can, the free agents should be motivated to agree to S&T.  One thing I am not sure of is when Sheed can unretire so that his contract can be used as a cap filler?  If the Celts can pull off an expensive S&T with Sheed's contract thrown in, they can easily put PP's contract in amnesty.  That way they can have some good players and also cap money to sign free agents in 2012.  Heck, they can attempt to convince KG and Ray to continue playing for veteran minimum with a Championship lure.

    I don't believe that the new CBA will have a hard cap.  As long as the owners get reduced max contracts and reduced guaranteed % in contracts, they will score a big win.  Just by getting reduced guaranteed % in contracts they will score a big win.  That way teams can get out of bad contracts and put much better quality product on the floor.
     

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