Pierce is done

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    Re: Pierce is done

    Pierce is better all around player  than Martin, everyone knows this and Pierce only has 5 million guaranteed next year.

    He would be very enticing for any contending team.

    To me is the the guy that Ainge needs to trade, and I don't think Pierce would mind ending his career chasing a ring.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to puddinpuddin's comment:

    Doc has done a very poor job handling any of the Big 3 regarding their PT or changing roles as the years have passed them and the franchise by.

    RA bolted after being flogged to death by way too much playing time the last few seasons... and CPP and KG are obviously wearing out at this point too.

    They may not want to hear it but doc needs the courage to tell them that their PT will be managed tightly from here on out... win, lose or draw.

    Never too late to change coaching strategies but we are getting very close.

    Otherwise, doc is a dead duck short-timer.

    Pud 

    I agree with your analysis 100% about Doc burning out the Big 3. If KG and Paul took the night off (as Doc had promised he would do on back to back nights; oh yeah, with Wilcox still hurting and Darko pizzed off in Europe there is no capable back up center), but anyways, with a real back up center and no Paul or KG, they would hav played a good game and probably win. Rondo and the bench played very well. Paul covering Josh Smith at the end got abused on the boards because Smith is taller and stronger than Paul, and Paul is strong. Doc set Paul up to fail last night, and Paul obliged.  This coach and his two HOF veterans are like co-dependents on some crazy fantasy that this is 2008 or something.  However, I think Ainge is going to keep Doc but look to change the players first - some trades now and some over the summer.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to teejaytee70's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to Karllost's comment:

     

    Pierce isnt done... he just needs to play limited minutes and come off the bench..  If the C"s had a good coach, we might have seen it happen long ago

     



    Pierce is not done if he ends up in OKC.

     

     




     

    I missed this.  Why would OKC want Pierce?  Kevin Martin is playing great.  Pierce isn't defending or scoring and they are going to give us a lottery pick AND Kevin Martin for him?

     



    All Kevin Martin does is stand around. He just waits for his defender to double or leave him open so that he'll shoot a 3. He's a one trick pony.

     

    If you don't think Paul Pierce would be an upgrade over Kevin Martin then you don't know NBA basketball.

    Just because Pierce is playing bad the past few weeks, it doesn't mean Pierce will not be better than Kevin Martin in the playoffs.

    And in case you didn't know, Martin has only played in 6 playoff games.




    Yeah.  He's a one-trick-pony who scored 24 points last night on 9-16 shooting.  Pierce is a no-trick-pony.  OKC is 34-10 and doing just fine.  Why would they blow up their team chemistry?  Keep dreaming if you think that Pierce is going to net Martin and a lottery pick. 

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to teejaytee70's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

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    Pierce isnt done... he just needs to play limited minutes and come off the bench..  If the C"s had a good coach, we might have seen it happen long ago

     



    Pierce is not done if he ends up in OKC.

     

     




     

    I missed this.  Why would OKC want Pierce?  Kevin Martin is playing great.  Pierce isn't defending or scoring and they are going to give us a lottery pick AND Kevin Martin for him?

     



    All Kevin Martin does is stand around. He just waits for his defender to double or leave him open so that he'll shoot a 3. He's a one trick pony.

     

    If you don't think Paul Pierce would be an upgrade over Kevin Martin then you don't know NBA basketball.

    Just because Pierce is playing bad the past few weeks, it doesn't mean Pierce will not be better than Kevin Martin in the playoffs.

    And in case you didn't know, Martin has only played in 6 playoff games.

     




    Yeah.  He's a one-trick-pony who scored 24 points last night on 9-16 shooting.  Pierce is a no-trick-pony.  OKC is 34-10 and doing just fine.  Why would they blow up their team chemistry?  Keep dreaming if you think that Pierce is going to net Martin and a lottery pick. 

     

     



    Let's just see what happens after the playoffs or the Finals what Kevin Martin does.

     

    If OKC once again fails to win a championship then remember what I told you today.

    Seriously, in 6 playoffs games, Kevin Martin just averaged 13.2 ppg shooting 40.7% FG.

     

    snakeoil already said Pierce is a better overall player. You're out voted 2-1.

     



    I am not saying the trade would happen  as far as a lottery pick goes but yeah Pierce>Martin on a championship contender.

    Pierce has a lot of respect around the league as a warrior and a true professional.  Martin has the rep as a jump shooter.

    Martin in 31 minutes averages 15 points  2 boards and 1 assist a game.

    Pierce in 33 minutes averages 19 points 6 boards and 4 assists.

    Again not to mention that Pierce has tons of playoff experience and is tough...

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from teejaytee70. Show teejaytee70's posts

    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to teejaytee70's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to teejaytee70's comment:

     

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    In response to Karllost's comment:

     

    Pierce isnt done... he just needs to play limited minutes and come off the bench..  If the C"s had a good coach, we might have seen it happen long ago

     



    Pierce is not done if he ends up in OKC.

     

     




     

    I missed this.  Why would OKC want Pierce?  Kevin Martin is playing great.  Pierce isn't defending or scoring and they are going to give us a lottery pick AND Kevin Martin for him?

     



    All Kevin Martin does is stand around. He just waits for his defender to double or leave him open so that he'll shoot a 3. He's a one trick pony.

     

    If you don't think Paul Pierce would be an upgrade over Kevin Martin then you don't know NBA basketball.

    Just because Pierce is playing bad the past few weeks, it doesn't mean Pierce will not be better than Kevin Martin in the playoffs.

    And in case you didn't know, Martin has only played in 6 playoff games.

     




    Yeah.  He's a one-trick-pony who scored 24 points last night on 9-16 shooting.  Pierce is a no-trick-pony.  OKC is 34-10 and doing just fine.  Why would they blow up their team chemistry?  Keep dreaming if you think that Pierce is going to net Martin and a lottery pick. 

     

     



    Let's just see what happens after the playoffs or the Finals what Kevin Martin does.

     

    If OKC once again fails to win a championship then remember what I told you today.

    Seriously, in 6 playoffs games, Kevin Martin just averaged 13.2 ppg shooting 40.7% FG.

     

    snakeoil already said Pierce is a better overall player. You're out voted 2-1.

     

     



    I am not saying the trade would happen  as far as a lottery pick goes but yeah Pierce>Martin on a championship contender.

     

    Pierce has a lot of respect around the league as a warrior and a true professional.  Martin has the rep as a jump shooter.

    Martin in 31 minutes averages 15 points  2 boards and 1 assist a game.

    Pierce in 33 minutes averages 19 points 6 boards and 4 assists.

    Again not to mention that Pierce has tons of playoff experience and is tough...

     

     



    We're not comparing careers here.  I suspect Pierce worked himself silly in the offseason.  He dropped weight and he looked good early on - quicker, but I think he's paying for it now.  His legs are gone now.  How much better do you think they'll be 4 months from now?  And, good-ole Fierce setting up a straw man argument, I'm not saying Martin is a better player than Pierce.  I'm saying there is no way OKC will do that trade.  Martin fits in.  The team is playing well.  There is no reason for them to make a major shakeup.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    Pierce is "done"

    per 36 minutes.  20.4 points. 6.2 boards and 4.1 assists.

    How much more should he be producing?  that is ridiculously productive

     

    By the way Martin per 36?

    18 points 2.9 boards 1.5 assists.  

    But some would say he is having a much better year than Pierce.

    Fascinating.

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to teejaytee70's comment:

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to teejaytee70's comment:

     

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    In response to Karllost's comment:

     

    Pierce isnt done... he just needs to play limited minutes and come off the bench..  If the C"s had a good coach, we might have seen it happen long ago

     



    Pierce is not done if he ends up in OKC.

     

     




     

    I missed this.  Why would OKC want Pierce?  Kevin Martin is playing great.  Pierce isn't defending or scoring and they are going to give us a lottery pick AND Kevin Martin for him?

     



    All Kevin Martin does is stand around. He just waits for his defender to double or leave him open so that he'll shoot a 3. He's a one trick pony.

     

    If you don't think Paul Pierce would be an upgrade over Kevin Martin then you don't know NBA basketball.

    Just because Pierce is playing bad the past few weeks, it doesn't mean Pierce will not be better than Kevin Martin in the playoffs.

    And in case you didn't know, Martin has only played in 6 playoff games.

     




    Yeah.  He's a one-trick-pony who scored 24 points last night on 9-16 shooting.  Pierce is a no-trick-pony.  OKC is 34-10 and doing just fine.  Why would they blow up their team chemistry?  Keep dreaming if you think that Pierce is going to net Martin and a lottery pick. 

     

     



    Let's just see what happens after the playoffs or the Finals what Kevin Martin does.

     

    If OKC once again fails to win a championship then remember what I told you today.

    Seriously, in 6 playoffs games, Kevin Martin just averaged 13.2 ppg shooting 40.7% FG.

     

    snakeoil already said Pierce is a better overall player. You're out voted 2-1.

     

     



    I am not saying the trade would happen  as far as a lottery pick goes but yeah Pierce>Martin on a championship contender.

     

    Pierce has a lot of respect around the league as a warrior and a true professional.  Martin has the rep as a jump shooter.

    Martin in 31 minutes averages 15 points  2 boards and 1 assist a game.

    Pierce in 33 minutes averages 19 points 6 boards and 4 assists.

    Again not to mention that Pierce has tons of playoff experience and is tough...

     

     

     



    We're not comparing careers here.  I suspect Pierce worked himself silly in the offseason.  He dropped weight and he looked good early on - quicker, but I think he's paying for it now.  His legs are gone now.  How much better do you think they'll be 4 months from now?  And, good-ole Fierce setting up a straw man argument, I'm not saying Martin is a better player than Pierce.  I'm saying there is no way OKC will do that trade.  Martin fits in.  The team is playing well.  There is no reason for them to make a major shakeup.

     



    I think they might make that trade one on one but I agree they would not give up a draft pick as well.

     

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    Snakeoil, when I look at the stats you put up, I like Martin's compared to Pierce's.  Hear me out!

    Now understand that I have not researched this but I have to believe Martin doesn't take nearly the number of shots that Pierce takes.  Martin is also the 3rd option, 2nd option at best any time he's on the court while Pierce is Boston's FIRST OPTION.

    If Martin consistently took the number of shots Pierce took on a nightly basis, Martin's numbers would probably be comparable, if not better, than Pierce's.  I honestly don't believe that Pierce would be as efficient in limited minutes as a backup in the way Martin is.

    Pierce is a better playoff player than alot of star SFs (incluging Rudy Gay, for instance) but I'd take Gay over Pierce today if we had that opportunity.

    Pierce is not done as a backup with limited minutes but he is done as a 36 minutes a game starting SF who is your teams first scoring option.  Yes, he's done in that role.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    I'm not saying that.  I'm saying Pierce is not done if he plays a supporting role, coming off the bench, with the Celtics.

    Snake used a "per 36 minutes" comparison.  That's a bit deceiving because it doesn't take into account the fact that Pierce would be worn out playing 36 minutes per game.  He's at 33 minutes a game now and it's obvious that's too big a load for him to perform at a high level night in and night out.  Pierce would probably be most effective playing about 25 minutes per game with the mindset of "taking over" when he's in the game.  He's not effective with that mindset while playing 35-plus minutes per game.  So that "36 minutes per game" comparison is invalid.

    The problem with the Celtics is that Doc hasn't come to that realization yet or he is too loyal to Pierce and less to the team to demote him to the second unit with limited minutes.

    Then when the playoffs arrive with a condensed rotation, Pierce would be even more of an asset to the team.

     

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to snakeoil123's comment:

    Pierce is better all around player  than Martin, everyone knows this and Pierce only has 5 million guaranteed next year.

    He would be very enticing for any contending team.

    To me is the the guy that Ainge needs to trade, and I don't think Pierce would mind ending his career chasing a ring.


    You may be right about Pierce.  I don't see him being traded but he probably wouldn't mind being traded to a contending team with the opportunity to win another ring.  It happens to many professional players towards the end of their career. 

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    Fierce, I don't know if Pierce makes OKC a better playoff team than if they had Martin.  Pierce gives them more playoff experience but Martin is a more athletic scorer than Pierce is at this stage of his career.

    It really doesn't matter because, right now, OKC has that chemistry with Martin cemented at the 6th man in place of Harden.  I'm not so sure that same level of chemistry would be there if Pierce was in that role in OKC.  I think Pierce's ego would be an obstacle to that chemistry if he were in OKC as the 6th man.

    What does OKC need come playoff time, a playoff-tested Pierce or an athletic scorer who fits in extremely well with the 2nd unit in Martin?

    That's a good question.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to Petey62's comment:

    I'm not saying that.  I'm saying Pierce is not done if he plays a supporting role, coming off the bench, with the Celtics.

    Snake used a "per 36 minutes" comparison.  That's a bit deceiving because it doesn't take into account the fact that Pierce would be worn out playing 36 minutes per game.  He's at 33 minutes a game now and it's obvious that's too big a load for him to perform at a high level night in and night out.  Pierce would probably be most effective playing about 25 minutes per game with the mindset of "taking over" when he's in the game.  He's not effective with that mindset while playing 35-plus minutes per game.  So that "36 minutes per game" comparison is invalid.

    The problem with the Celtics is that Doc hasn't come to that realization yet or he is too loyal to Pierce and less to the team to demote him to the second unit with limited minutes.

    Then when the playoffs arrive with a condensed rotation, Pierce would be even more of an asset to the team.

     



    Thank you.  These last 2 posts of yours are on the money.

    PP's having a real hard time adjusting to being a diminished first option. I don't see him adjusting to floating around on the elbows waiting for pickings from Durant and Westbrook.

    Honestly, I'd trade Pierce for Martin right now, straight up, let Martin be the consistent 18 a night scorer he's always been, and look for a different alpha dog.

    Or marginalize Pierce's weaknesses by having him come off the bench against bench players for 4-5 minutes at a time.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to Karllost's comment:

     

    Pierce isnt done... he just needs to play limited minutes and come off the bench..  If the C"s had a good coach, we might have seen it happen long ago

     



    Pierce is not done if he ends up in OKC.

     

    An ageing pocket QB can still play football provided his line protects him as his mobility skills, if he had any, have diminished. In baseball, there is a place for an older athlete at 1st base, desinated hitter or pinch hitter. But in basketball, the only place is limited minutes off the bench! 


    PP has been an Allstar and one of the Celtics all time greats. His skills have only diminished due to Father Time !!! He should now, if not traded, only play off the bench. Problem is that he's our leading scorer and Doc hates to give that up. Naturally, he's the leader because, except for KG, and Rondo too on occasion, no one else can put up the offensive numbers. Sully is coming along & could be a leading scorer. As the older Ray Allen can win a ring with Miami, PP can too with a Contender but not to a team in our division like the Knicks but to OKC, the Clippers, Golden State, Memphis, San Antonio etc. If we can't get a quality player in a trade, I'd even let him go for 2 draft picks !!!

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to Petey62's comment:

     

    I'm not saying that.  I'm saying Pierce is not done if he plays a supporting role, coming off the bench, with the Celtics.

    Snake used a "per 36 minutes" comparison.  That's a bit deceiving because it doesn't take into account the fact that Pierce would be worn out playing 36 minutes per game.  He's at 33 minutes a game now and it's obvious that's too big a load for him to perform at a high level night in and night out.  Pierce would probably be most effective playing about 25 minutes per game with the mindset of "taking over" when he's in the game.  He's not effective with that mindset while playing 35-plus minutes per game.  So that "36 minutes per game" comparison is invalid.

    The problem with the Celtics is that Doc hasn't come to that realization yet or he is too loyal to Pierce and less to the team to demote him to the second unit with limited minutes.

    Then when the playoffs arrive with a condensed rotation, Pierce would be even more of an asset to the team.

     

     



    How about if Pierce is with OKC?  You think OKC would be a better playoff team with Pierce instead of Kevin Martin?

     



    Pierce if on a team with threats like OKC would chew up any one on one coverage. Remember KD and Westbrook are the prime threats. Any one thinking that Pierce is no good is nuts.  He is not a player who can be successful night in night out when he is the only offensive threat and everyone knows he is getting the ball.  We have seen this coming since 2010. Pierce can't score efficiently because there is no other threat on the floor.  Who can he kick it out to for a three this year? Terry just hasn't done and by the way hasn't been given much time to do it either.

     

    Pierce on Memphis or OkC will be the truth again if they are smart.  The thing the Celtics have to fear on their roster there is no one to pick up the slack. Green cannot be an alpha scorer.  He just can't do it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawaiibob. Show hawaiibob's posts

    Re: Pierce is done AS A STARTER

    I'm sure there's someone whose memory is better than mine regarding the end of Havlicek's brillant career. If I recall correctly, Hondo retired in 77. Celtics won the title in 76. I know H was an integral part of the team and a starter who of course was the greatest 6th man ever before moving into the starting lineup. Just curious what his role was his last few years.

    Pierce seems to be a very proud and assertive guy--an alpha as we say--but he is also a savvy vet who probably knows it better than any that the time has come for him to morph into a different role and come off the bench. It is all in how it's presented and PP may be very receptive to it. Maybe he has a tweaked ankle or gimpy hamstring that requires an early pre Allstar break rest to gear up for the end of the season and playoffs? This requires JG to move into the starting rotation and get 36 mpg while PP is resting and recuperating? Just saying that it's worth considering. The assumption some of us make--and I am one--is that aging former all pros are able to still play at a high level just not for the extended time they were able to when they were in their prime--and this seems to be the case for KG. Question is: is it also true for The Truth?

    I avidly follow this forum and the celticsblog.com site and don't see how a blockbuster trade of PP or Rondo or both will really do much at this point for this season. I think our best bet is to do the PP 6th man move and work the trade lines to get a Dalembert-type to patrol the paint and defend the rim. As I've said before--playoff basketball is about attacking and defending the rim. We have the attackers but need at least one (more) defender. If the PP transition works and we get the big we can make a historic run to 18. It is eminently possible even in the face of the current malaise.

    Final point: RR--the question that must be answered is simple--is RR THE GUY--moving forward?-- but that's a question--in my mind-- to be settled once and for all in the offseason.

     
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    Re: Pierce is done

    In response to Kirk6's comment:

    Right now Green is better than Pierce.



    Not even close. 

     
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