Stay the course

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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to basketbert's comment:

     

    Unfortunately KG only started to play great in this years playoffs after we got into a 2-0 hole.

     



    That's because he's old. Old players like Paul Pierce and KG can still have 1 or 2 great games in a playoff series. But they can't do it every game anymore because they're old!

     



    +1 especially after an 82 game season! 

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    Have to agree...it's even happening to the Spurs.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     


    Why did you forget to mention the Lakers diving into the lottery in 2005 and getting Andrew Bynum?

     

    If the Lakers didn't have Andrew Bynum, it would have been Suns vs. Celtics in the 2010 Finals.

    Again, when was the last time the Celts signed a big name free-agent?

    The most famous big name free-agent the Celts signed was a 35-year old Dominique Wilkins in 1994.

    Boston is not as attractive as NY or LA. The Lakers and the Knicks can afford not to build through the draft. But the Celts can't.

    The only way to get assets to use as trade bait is if you get lottery picks. Remember, if the Celtics didn't dive into the lottery of 2007, no #5 pick which means no Ray Allen and no KG!



    A team doesn't have to sign a "big name" free agent to win a championship.  A combination of trades and second tier FAs can do it - 2007-2008 Celtics.  They picked up House, Posey, Cassell, and PJ Brown to add to the incoming trades of RA, KG, and Powe (the prior year).  It's not just a draft pick or a "big name" free agent that can give a team a solid chance to win.  It really takes all three means of acquiring players to build a winning team.  Also, who's to say that some "big name" (and the only player of consequence a team may afford) won't go down with a season-ending injury, and the team has put all of its eggs in that basket?  Watching the Knicks look terrible against the Pacers and are being exposed for what they are, just as they really did against the Celtics, the C's had no offense of their own, it's clear that having a "star" isn't enough.  Felton isn't enough, Schumbert isn't a genuine game changer offensively, and JR Smith might as well be Ricky Davis.  

    I don't think they'd get equal return on Pierce in a trade, and if he leaves so do KG and Doc.  Keep them and make something happen one way or three, starting with a center and a backup point. No matter who is traded some will believe the sky is falling, but trading PP would be the worst case scenario because of the extended implications that have been mentioned (cap threshold, etc.).  Danny does indeed have a rough time coming up, and I'm hoping he's up to the task, but I'm not altogether confident he can do it.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    Rondo, Green, Terry, Bass, and Lee eat up half of the Celtics' cap space. Ainge will not be able to do anything in free-agency until July 1, 2015.

    Unless Ainge gets rid of the contracts of Lee, Terry, and Bass.



    Unless they are traded.  In other words there are multiple ways to get players,  you just have to be good at doing it.  The draft is not the only way and it seldom works as well.  There is no blueprint for this,  if there was everyone would be following it.  If you know how to do it then you should be making millions from some NBA team.  Draft picks are valuable,  but it is the picks that you don't know where they are going to be in the draft that gets you players either from the draft or NBA ready players now.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    Rondo, Green, Terry, Bass, and Lee eat up half of the Celtics' cap space. Ainge will not be able to do anything in free-agency until July 1, 2015.

    Unless Ainge gets rid of the contracts of Lee, Terry, and Bass.

     



    Unless they are traded.  In other words there are multiple ways to get players,  you just have to be good at doing it.  The draft is not the only way and it seldom works as well.  There is no blueprint for this,  if there was everyone would be following it.  If you know how to do it then you should be making millions from some NBA team.  Draft picks are valuable,  but it is the picks that you don't know where they are going to be in the draft that gets you players either from the draft or NBA ready players now.

     

     



    Like I said, until the Celtics get rid of Bass, Terry, and Lee, the Celts have no choice but to build through the draft.

     

    You haven't answered my question, you said mid-level players can get you a star player, so when was the last time a mid-level player got traded for a star player?


    No one is arguing that we don't need to replace Bass, Terry or Lee.  EVERYONE know that. 

    Didn't know you asked a question but I guess you could say KG.

    Look as I said the draft is a crapshoot as well.  Not only do you have to get the right high pick, the player has to be there,  the team has to pick that player.  If all 3 things don't line up you spend 10 years in the lottery with nothing to show for it.  Again we have been down that road and we go no where.  We traded project and picks to get where we wanted to go.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     


    Come on, KG and Ray are 1st-tier players. 



    My point exactly - they weren't free agents.  They came via trades, and it was the role players who were the free agents.  Determining need and filling it is the bottom line, and not dependent on only one means of acquiring a player.  The Celtics' problem isn't attracting "big name" free agents, it's not having the assets to trade for them, and that's the current problem.  

    Players seem to want money first and want to win second.  The Celtics have neither attraction right now.  I just don't see how trading PP, specifically, brings anything to solve the problem(s). Amnesty is another matter, but then it's a loss of three and not one and it's tank time.  But if the Celtics really believe that they can build around a core of Rondo, Green, Sullinger, et all, then a strategy has to be in place to add the right pieces, starting with a center, a backup point, and a shooter off the bench.  That means they hold onto whatever assets they do perceive they have.  I wouldn't be looking to this year's draft for an answer though, no matter how much they might move up.  

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to davidap's comment:

     

    You need a minimum of 13 players for a complete roster.

    So if the Celts have 3 players getting a total of 45m, that means the Celtics will only have 20m to spend on 10 players. 2m per player?

    How are the Celtics going to win a championship with 10 minimum salaried players?

    The max is 2 superstars in one team. Gone are the days where you can have a Big 3. The new cap rules made sure of that.


    Incorrect. You can re-sign your own players above the cap. Re-sign Rondo and Green first. Re-sign whoever else might still be around like Pierce and Garnett (for much shorter money), Bradley, Sullinger, various draft picks. Then sign two max players from the Gasol/Love/Aldridge/Chandler/Jordan group. Round out the final spots with ring chasers willing to accept the minimum. That's how Miami has done it and that's the new blueprint for success.

     



    Wrong!

     

    Like I said, once you go over the cap, you're a team over the cap. A team over the cap can't sign free-agents from other teams.

    Mployee and I had this debate last summer. He kept insisting that the Celts can sign a free-agent from another team before re-signing Jeff Green, Bass, and KG. It didn't happen.

    Next season the projected salary cap is 60m. Now, the Celts can either go under the cap or go over it. But the Celts can't sign a free-agent from another team then sign their own players to go over the cap. That's the rule.



    Again, Danny promised the MLE to Terry but tried to avoid it and work a S&T to free up additional cap space but ran out of time. Using the MLE as you know comitted him to "not signing any free agents" via under the cap rules.

    Again for the umpteenth time, please provide the rule that says a team can't sign a free agent while under the cap/cap hold and then use Bird Rts to go over the capp with your own players. You have failed to prove this as a fact ... No where in the CBA does it say such a thing. In fact is says the contrary throughout the rules.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    I believe the new keys under this CBA will be drafting, and keeping your own players.  The Griz and the Warriors have no known superstars (yes, Curry is great......but still injury prone).  They drafted players, and filled in with nice trades or Free Agents, then KEPT their team. 

    I think somehow the Celtics need to stockpile some draft picks, draft wisely, and use trades to fill in for needs (like Bogut on GSW and Z-Bo on MEM).  Gone are the days when 3 superstars  can team up (MIA is in DEEP trouble lux tax wise after next year), and we all saw what the lakers tried to do with no bench.

    I can't see any more 30 mill contracts.  I can see 1 max per team.

     

    For example - the Bulls have DRose and bunch of role players...............if any of those become too expensive, they will let them go.  Notice how they have Gibson to slide right into the Boozer slot.  You have to be smart.

    And we need to be smarter.  We traded Perk, and had no backup plan. 

    We should be all set at 1,2 & 3 for the next couple of years.  But we need a Plan A, B, C and D to get quality big men who will defend, rebound, and score a little in the post.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

     

     


    No one is arguing that we don't need to replace Bass, Terry or Lee.  EVERYONE know that. 

     

    Didn't know you asked a question but I guess you could say KG.

    Look as I said the draft is a crapshoot as well.  Not only do you have to get the right high pick, the player has to be there,  the team has to pick that player.  If all 3 things don't line up you spend 10 years in the lottery with nothing to show for it.  Again we have been down that road and we go no where.  We traded project and picks to get where we wanted to go.

     



    What???

     

    We got KG for a mid-level player?

    Big Al, Gerald Green, other players, and two 1st round picks is mid-level?

    Wow!

     

    Didn't we get Big Al with the 15th pick and turned him into KG?

    We got Rondo with the 21st pick.

    Sully with the 21st pick.

    Bradley with the 19th pick.

    The Celts just have to draft wisely.



    Seriously 99% of the GM's would tell you we made out like a bandit on the KG deal. The only  good player we gave up was Jefferson.  So we actually traded for our Championship.  Jefferson was so good that they didn't even want to keep him.  

    Why are you telling me where we got Sully, Bradley and Rondo?  What does that have to do with anything.

    Where did I ever say we got KG for mid level? Don't make things up as we go.

    Now the question for you is if we could trade some first rounders and a couple players off our team right now and end up with a KG type player would you do it again?

     
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    Re: Stay the course

     

    Also, there is no IR. Teams must have a minimum of 13 players and every player's salary counts against the cap.


    I don't think draft picks count against the cap.

     

    Why dont you defend your statement that KG is DONE??  These playoffs 12.7 pts, 13.7 rebs, 3.5 assists, excellent defense, 50%FG, 94% FT...... and all you brought up was KG didnt score 20 this post season, he is done.. LOL

    Garnett is far from done. He can't play 35+ minutes anymore at a high level. For 20 minutes a night, he'd still be one of the best. The Celtics struggled this year, in part, because they don't currently have the type of depth to limit him to significantly shorter mintues.

    This was KG's first season as a Celtic that the Celts were eliminated in the 1st round.


    This doesn't mean much in and of itself. It's not Garnett's fault that Rondo and Sullinger were both lost to season-ending injuries, or that Bradley, Lee, and Terry (for the first three games) suddenly forgot how to play basketball. A healthy Celtics team likely would still be playing right now with a decent chance to get past Indiana into the Eastern Conference Finals. Rondo is the best player on the team and Sullinger enabled Garnett to receive valuable rest time. Of course that was going to have an adverse impact on the team's post-season chances. Garnett's scoring (certainly not his playoff rebounding!) declined because Rivers had to play him too many minutes.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    Here:

    http://www.nba.com/knicks/freeagency/faqs.html

    Can a team sign free agents and then re-sign their own free agents using the player's Bird rights?
    Yes, however a team's free agent counts towards the team's salary against the cap while he is unsigned. In order to gain additional cap room to sign other free agents, a team would have to renounce their own player's Bird rights, meaning they give up the ability to exceed the salary cap by re-signing their player.

     




    And I demonstrated to you last year how the C's could have renounced all the deadwood on the cap hold from the last twenty years and the players they had no interest in resigning or using in S&T's as well as KG to get well under the cap hold. Had they resigned KG to a more modest contract ($7-8MM) they could have had enough space for Terry and then resign the other players with Bird Rts. You don't have to renounce all your Bd Rts players ... Just one or a few like KG that get $20MM to create all sorts of possible options.

     

    So AGAIN ... where does it say you can't sign your own Bd Rts players to go over the cap if you have created enough salary cap space/cap hold space to fit a free agent in before doing so?  IT DOESN"T!!!!    In fact it supports my claim ... It says YES, HOWEVER you may need to renounce players and lose bird rts to get under the cap. They had to renounce KG's $20MM cap hold and resign him first and work from there to fit Terry under the cap and then resign their own Bd Rts players. Danny blew it announcing the MLE too soon and then tried to work a S&T and ran out of time. Had he been successful, he would have been able to go over the cap and still have the MLE for another player ... Read for comprehension and learn how to interpret rather than convince yourself that "it's a rule."  It's not a rule ... and don't give me that "then why hasn't anybody done it since" crap. It isn't very often that you have half a roster and a $20MM player coming off contract that enables a team to renounce him and resign him for less than half he was getting (Most Bd Rts players are in the middle of the careers and resign for more ... it was an unusual situation that KG could be signed for far less than his previous year salary/cap hold). And we'll never know if KG would have signed for $8MM since it was a moot point once Danny was forced to use the MLE for Terry cause he could pay his Bd Rts players whatever he wanted within the rules but failed to get a home town dsct from KG anyway.

     
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    Re: Stay the course

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to OneOnOne's comment:

     

     


    No one is arguing that we don't need to replace Bass, Terry or Lee.  EVERYONE know that. 

     

    Didn't know you asked a question but I guess you could say KG.

    Look as I said the draft is a crapshoot as well.  Not only do you have to get the right high pick, the player has to be there,  the team has to pick that player.  If all 3 things don't line up you spend 10 years in the lottery with nothing to show for it.  Again we have been down that road and we go no where.  We traded project and picks to get where we wanted to go.

     



    What???

     

    We got KG for a mid-level player?

    Big Al, Gerald Green, other players, and two 1st round picks is mid-level?

    Wow!

     

    Didn't we get Big Al with the 15th pick and turned him into KG?

    We got Rondo with the 21st pick.

    Sully with the 21st pick.

    Bradley with the 19th pick.

    The Celts just have to draft wisely.



    Big Al, Gerald Green, and the ohers are NOT, repeat NOT Hall of Fame players.   Big Al is not even an all star.  Gerald Green?   Get real, he's a first round pick and sits the bench.  He was a mistake and Danny traded the mistake and the has beens like Telfair for Garnett.  Only Big Al was worth anything and even he, as noted, is not a top Tier player - not an all star and certainly not a hall of famer who carries a team.  So, good for Danny, he did trade mid-level players for a superstar who brought us a championship when teamed with other superstars and some great role players.

     

     
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