Terry vs. Ray

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to painter's comment:

     


    1) I'm sorry; I'm reading this and honestly attempting to determine what you are trying to say.  Starting a sentence with "If" has to lead to some sort of conclusion in the same sentence. That's only one grammatical incongruity, and they occur with frightening regularity.  Slow down (time is not of the essence here) when writing and give yourself a chance to form your sentences to strengthen your argument, an argument that may in itself be valid; however, if you can't succinctly state your view, the writing fails and the meaning is lost. Using fewer sentences and putting in bulletpointed phrases (it's an option on the ribbon at the bottom) instead might make your posts infinitely more readable.  


    2) I don't think anyone has said or believes Ray is "lazy", they're just saying that he's slow to react defensively. Whether that's rooted in age, ability, or commitment (unlikely, he a genuine professional) is irrelevant because the bottom line is simply ...

     



    If (Is this the right word?) you try to be smart, you better be smart.

     

    1) a) Obviously I'm not a native speaker. Sorry when you have problems to read my posts b) My time is money, I do not have all the time of the world to post here.

    2) For my understanding in the world of sport "lazy" defender is a synonym for not "comitted" defender. And just a few posts above someone mentioned the word "not dedicated" to defense. IMO the word lazy is the right word to sum it up. Conclusion: You suggesting that no one said Ray is lazy at D is wrong.

    Additional comment:

    I might not be great in grammar but I know that correlation is not causality. And if in the meantime many parameters have changed it is even more complicated. From the beginning of last season to now we changed our starting Center, power forward (twice), shooting guard (twice) and point guard (That is 4 of 5 positions). And with change of the PG our total style of play has changed as well. On top: Rebounding totals are not even a good measure, cause it could be that: a) we play a faster style (and more rebounds are available) b) Our shooting % went down.

    Sorry to dissapoint the grammar police but still the numbers doesn't support this case. I know that Fierce hates Ray (cause Fierce thinks Ray has left him fo a younger girl), but math is still math.

    Ok, that is it. Like mentioned before: We have more important issues than Ray vs. Terry. I just don't like wrong math as much as some people dislike wrong grammar ;-)

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to Gasthoerer's comment:


    If you're saying that I hate Ray then that's your opinion. But saying that your math is correct and mine is not, that's absolutely false!

    Check out the rebounding numbers, this season the Celts are getting 39.68 rpg as of tonight. The last 3 seasons, the Celts' rebounding numbers are 38.6, 38.8, and 38.8. 

     



    That number says nothing! You can repeat it as much as you want. It doesn't tell you anything about Ray's impact on rebounding as to many parameters have changed. From the beginning of the last year to now, we have changed all positions besides Pierce's and some of them twice. On top: Rebound totals doesn't say much anyway. Without Allen the rebound numbers went down compared to last year. Inserting Sully and the change to a faster style after Rondo went down may have improved the rebounding totals.

    Our FG attempts per game went up by almost 3. When you just assume the same happend to our opponents than this equals 6 more shoots per game. With a FG-% of 50 % thats 3 rebounds. If we get 50 % of them this is 1.5 boards per game for us.

    By the way: Over that last games I rather had Ray than Terry, what about you?

    And didn't you say that you hate Ray cause he left to Miami?

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from PHX85014. Show PHX85014's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    LOVED RAY ALLEN AS A CELTIC, BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE JASON TERRY X FACTOR........

    1. TERRY'S LIGHTHEARTED AND POSITIVE PRESENCE IN THE LOCKER ROOM , HIS ABILITY TO GET ALONG WITH EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY RONDO....NO MORE FACTIONS AND WHISPERS, NO MORE OF RAY'S EDGY OCD ENERGY GETTING ON EVERYONE'S NERVES.

    2. THE UNDENIABLE FACT THAT JASON TERRY SEEMS TO KICK IT UP A NOTCH COME PLAYOFF TIME, AND THE UNDENIABLE FACT THAT RAY ALLEN WAS MOSTLY OFF IN THE PLAYOFFS AS A CELTIC, REMEMBER THE FIRST PLAYOFF SERIES AGAINST ATLANTA IN 2008 ? IT LOOKED LIKE HIS CAREER WAS OVER HE WAS SO HORRIBLE. RAY LOOKED OUT OF GAS AND COMPLETELY ONE DIMENSIONAL MOST OF THE TIME DURING THE PLAYOFFS AS A CELTIC......

    HOPE DOC REMEMBER'S TO REST JASON TERRY TOO AND GET THIS TERRANCE WILLIAMS CAT INTO THE MIX, HE'S ANOTHER BIG BODY DEFENDER WHO CAN HANDLE THE BALL, PASS AND DRIVE TO THE HOOP

    I'M GOING TO ENJOY THIS YEAR'S PLAYOFFS , THIS CELTIC TEAM IS BEING REBUILT ON THE FLY AND IT WILL BE FACINATING TO SEE ALL THE NEW GUYS (ALMOST THE WHOLE TEAM) PREFORM UNDER PLAYOFF PRESSURE.  

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

     

    You know why it had a lot to do with Ray?

    Because Ray doesn't hustle like Lee or Bradley.

    When was the last time you saw Ray dive on the floor for a loose ball?

    Do you see Ray jumping high in the air getting offensive rebounds?

    The problem with you is you refuse to adhere to the truth because you love Ray so much.

    When Ray was 30 or even 32 years old, he was one hell of a player. But now that he's 37, you're crazy if you think the Celts are better off having Ray in the starting 5.



    That is b...sh.t. I never said we are better off with Ray starting. (Actually, I believe it is not important who is starting). Ray is coming of the bench in Miami without any moaning. There is no reason why he could not have done this for us. Ray just had a 7 rebound game 2 games before, in case you have noticed. And the number of fast break blocks against our guards have increased and not dropped as you may have noticed.

    What I'm saying is: We would be better off with Ray instead of Terry, both salary cap wise and as a player. How many games Ray has won for Miami this season? How many Terry? And I'm saying that admitting that Terry would also have been one of my first choices to replace him. I even said that Terry will come around and Ray's numbers will fall at the beginning of the season, when some people here went crazy. I'm hardly as blinded as you are.

    To sum it up:

    • In your opinion, we didn't change the power forward and center position from the beginning of last season until the end?
    • You believe that Pierce channeling that inner Rodman, cause Ray has gone 6 month before this stretch started?
    • You believe that, we play faster cause Ray is gone, when the entire forum is discussing the faster pace after Rondo went down?
    • In your opion we are a better rebounding team when we shoot more and therefore grab also more rebounds? Which is just simple math.

    Come on, that is denial. You play hide and seek standing in the middle of the room with you eyes closed.

    And in the end you also deny that you hate Ray cause he betrayed us (you!!), which you posted several times. Sorry, I'm losing respect.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaCeltics. Show DaCeltics's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    I think were marginally better with JET. Jet hits mid-range shots Ray never could. Jet has the speed and quickness, ballhandling, playmaking advantage. More quickness on perimeter defense is vital for our team.

    Jet, however is easier to guard in the halfcourt. So in halfcourt slow down games, Ray was better. However, that is regular season Ray. Playoffs Ray was a dud due to weary legs.

    I expect Jet to be better for us in the playoffs if he stops trying to be a spot-up 3 shooter (NOT his strength)

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

     

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

     

    In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

     

    You know why it had a lot to do with Ray?

    Because Ray doesn't hustle like Lee or Bradley.

    When was the last time you saw Ray dive on the floor for a loose ball?

    Do you see Ray jumping high in the air getting offensive rebounds?

    The problem with you is you refuse to adhere to the truth because you love Ray so much.

    When Ray was 30 or even 32 years old, he was one hell of a player. But now that he's 37, you're crazy if you think the Celts are better off having Ray in the starting 5.

     



    That is b...sh.t. I never said we are better off with Ray starting. (Actually, I believe it is not important who is starting). Ray is coming of the bench in Miami without any moaning. There is no reason why he could not have done this for us. Ray just had a 7 rebound game 2 games before, in case you have noticed. And the number of fast break blocks against our guards have increased and not dropped as you may have noticed.

     

    What I'm saying is: We would be better off with Ray instead of Terry, both salary cap wise and as a player. How many games Ray has won for Miami this season? How many Terry? And I'm saying that admitting that Terry would also have been one of my first choices to replace him. I even said that Terry will come around and Ray's numbers will fall at the beginning of the season, when some people here went crazy. I'm hardly as blinded as you are.

    To sum it up:

    • In your opinion, we didn't change the power forward and center position from the beginning of last season until the end?
    • You believe that Pierce channeling that inner Rodman, cause Ray has gone 6 month before this stretch started?
    • You believe that, we play faster cause Ray is gone, when the entire forum is discussing the faster pace after Rondo went down?
    • In your opion we are a better rebounding team when we shoot more and therefore grab also more rebounds? Which is just simple math.

    Come on, that is denial. You play hide and seek standing in the middle of the room with you eyes closed.

    And in the end you also deny that you hate Ray cause he betrayed us (you!!), which you posted several times. Sorry, I'm losing respect.

     



    First off the difference between the two this  year has  been negligible.  Ray is on a team where he gets open looks all the time and still has not performed as he did early in the year.  He is a small piece in Miami.  So why is it so important for you to make a big deal about this whenever anyone bring up stats.  Ray as a good defensive player as Terry.  Ray a better rebounder. Who cares.  Ray a better salary cap deal.  All you arguements are tenuous.  So why is it so important.  Ray would have made little difference around here.  We will see how Terry performs in the playoffs.  Terry destroyed the Heat in 2011, Ray never came close to that.  

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to concord27's comment:

     

     All you arguements are tenuous.  So why is it so important.  Ray would have made little difference around here.  We will see how Terry performs in the playoffs.  Terry destroyed the Heat in 2011, Ray never came close to that.  

     




     

    Why is it so important? Cause you guys are dellusional. Terry was one of the major reason the Mavs went home early in the post season more than once. He had a great end of the 2011 finals but was below average in the beginning.

    Ray came never close to what Terry did in 2011? Really? Sorry, that is just laughable and not even worth a dicussion. Just check some stats and tell me that Ray came never close to what Terry has done 2011. Have you guys actually watched games of Terry besides the finals 2011?

    http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2008/06/should-ray-allen-have-received-the-nba-finals-mvp/

    Finals 2008

    Player

    G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG Paul Pierce 6 6 38.8 .432 .393 .830 .50 4.00 4.50 6.3 1.17 .33 3.67 4.00 21.8 Ray Allen6 6 41.0 .507 .524 .867 1.30 3.70 5.00 2.5 1.33 .67 1.83 2.70 20.3

    It is ok to be sad that Ray has left, but you guys are so subjective it is not even funny.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to Gasthoerer's comment:

    In response to concord27's comment:

     

     All you arguements are tenuous.  So why is it so important.  Ray would have made little difference around here.  We will see how Terry performs in the playoffs.  Terry destroyed the Heat in 2011, Ray never came close to that.  

     




     

    Why is it so important? Cause you guys are dellusional. Terry was one of the major reason the Mavs went home early in the post season more than once. He had a great end of the 2011 finals but was below average in the beginning.

    Ray came never close to what Terry did in 2011? Really? Sorry, that is just laughable and not even worth a dicussion. Just check some stats and tell me that Ray came never close to what Terry has done 2011. Have you guys actually watched games of Terry besides the finals 2011?

    http://thehoopdoctors.com/online2/2008/06/should-ray-allen-have-received-the-nba-finals-mvp/

    Finals 2008

    Player

    G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG Paul Pierce 6 6 38.8 .432 .393 .830 .50 4.00 4.50 6.3 1.17 .33 3.67 4.00 21.8 Ray Allen6 6 41.0 .507 .524 .867 1.30 3.70 5.00 2.5 1.33 .67 1.83 2.70 20.3

    It is ok to be sad that Ray has left, but you guys are so subjective it is not even funny.




    If you are saying that Ray has any NBA finals performance to match Terry literally winning games five and six against the Heat you are as politely as I can say mistaken.  You are making so much of this you have destroyed any argument you have made. Terry in Dallas is known as one of the great clutch players.  Ray as a three point shooter and All-Star is a hall famer. Ray was great in 2008 along with Pierce and Garnett who were far more dominant, he has gotten old and you defending him is pathetic.  The point was Terry is more versatile and with all the injuries he has been able to play point guard which Ray cannot.  It is a mountain out of a molehill now let's find something else to talk about.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from cshashaty. Show cshashaty's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    Ray was a good Celtic. He just cannot defend anymore, and the C's make their living on D. That being said, I still wish he had stayed in Boston and finished up with us.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    You are right, if the numbers of Ray in 2008 are, in your opinion, not equal to Terry's, then there is no senso for discussion.

    I just ask you to check again, if these numbers really destroy my arguments and please consider that Ray defended against the oponents best player in long stretches:

                 GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% TOT APG SPG BPG TO PPG

    Ray Allen 6 41.0 .507   .524  .867  5.00 2.5  1.33 .67 1.83 20.3

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    In response to Fierce34's comment:

    If Pierce didn't score 41 points against the Cavs in that Game 7 of the 2008 semis against the Cavs, the Celts wouldn't have even made it to the Finals.



    Are you out of arguments or why do you change the topic? I never said PP isn't great. I just proved how great Rays finals have been in 2008. Had Ray bad stretches in the post season? Yes! So did Terry, just check how often the Mavs went home early (even in the first round once). Or how did Terry perform in the first Finals against Miami in 2006: "It was five years ago that Jason Terry had a woeful Game 6 against the Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals, scoring 16 points on 7-of-25 shooting."

    This was my last post for now. If facts doesn't convince you my words won't do it either. So keep one hating how bad Ray was and how much worse he is now. If this makes you guys get over the loss of Ray it might be a good thing. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Terry vs. Ray

    Does any of it matter.  With Ray we would still be struggling and without Ray we are struggling.  Its not as if Jason Terry has become some kind of saviour!!   The team's issue isn't shooting guard or even backup shooting guard.  The team has NO SIZE and too many injuries.  The combination is simply killing us.

     
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