Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

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    Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    (in alphabetical order)

    1).  Malik Allen (PF)
    2).  Louis Amundson (PF)
    3).  Earl Barron (PF/C)
    4).  Keith Bogans (SG/SF)... Chicago is rumored to have interest
    5).  Josh Boone (PF)... I think he's Restricted though..
    6).  Kwame Brown (PF/C)
    7).  Travis Diener (PG)
    8).  Juan Dixon (G)
    9).  Michael Finley (G/F)
    10). Larry Hughes (G/F)
    11). Allen Iverson (G)
    12). Anthony Johnson (PG)
    13). Tyronn Lue (PG)
    14). Tracy McGrady (SG/SF)
    15). Mikki Moore (PF/C)
    16). Brian Scalabrine (PF)
    17). Joe Smith (PF)
    18). Anthony Tolliver (PF) (Probably going to GS or Minny)
    19). Ant*ine W*lker (SF/PF)
    20). Delonte West (G)

    My vote would be for No. 4 Keith Bogans and No. 19, although I have entered into an informal plea deal to not promote him on this site for a period of 10 days.... you all gotta talk him up for me!!  Surprised

    EDIT:  So let's assume we have 3 open roster spots--Sheed simply retires--and don't make a trade.  I would probably sign the 2 players above, and use the remaining spot on either Harangody, Erden, Gaffney, Lafayette or Sims.  

    What would you do with the final 3 spots via FA? 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    How long has it been since toine actually suited up?  Is it longer than PJ Brown?

    PA
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]How long has it been since toine actually suited up?  Is it longer than PJ Brown? PA
    Posted by PACelt[/QUOTE]


    No. 19 on my list, along with Marko Jaric, was told by Memphis in 2008 that he would not be playing because the team was in a full-blown youth movement.   He was subsequently bought out by Memphis in Dec 2008 and worked out for a few teams (most notably Toronto), but unfortunately the litany of Negative headlines detailing the bad habits began to break, which pretty much seemed to seal his fate. He is currently 33 years old--unfortunately getting little if any positive press--but Charlotte coaches and players have been talking him up.  My credibility on this issue has been questioned, which is why I have respectfully asked other media outlets to do their job and give an update on how he's looking.  I am probably breaking my "plea deal" by saying that much, but that's the cliff's notes version.  
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    I would say the leader in the clubhouse is Hughes, but if Toine was in playing shape this is the type of team where he could actually excel. Whoever they bring in will have to play for the Vet minimum.
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    I like hughes, Antoine Walker is pretty old, Allen, Malik and Diener is pretty good. although i like harangody and laffeyette both

     
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    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]I would say the leader in the clubhouse is Hughes, but if Toine was in playing shape this is the type of team where he could actually excel. Whoever they bring in will have to play for the Vet minimum.
    Posted by sportsbozo1[/QUOTE]

    Thank you, I think that's very fair, much more reasonable than the folk who say he is "LOOOOONG OVER."

    OK, I realize I got all "pop psychology" before when it came to No. 19 on my list, but let's compare Ant*ine's "situation" to someone like Grant Hill...

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2932161

    My take.... this guy's biggest obstacle has been an "emotional" one as I talked about in the thread that was taken down... It's not to say one person is weak or one person is strong, but Ant*ine is the type to wear his heart on his sleeve and I think the traumatic events that took place inside his home in July 2007 really shook him to his core, and the above article has clues which suggest this.  And my research has led me to the conclusion that he has sorted through most of his demons and is working himself past exhaustion.  (Nazr Mohammed via twitter has also marvelled at how W*lker is working harder than ever before, which says a lot if you remember the summer of 2003 at Attack Athletics when he went from good shape to phenomenal shape before the Dallas trade.)

    Grant Hill, meanwhile, didn't have the emotional and financial obstacles, but still had to overcome the countless physical obstacles and injuries to make it back at 33, but with hard work and belief (and a CHANCE to prove he was "back" since he was still under contract with Orlando) he successfully made it back.  And W*lker at 6-9 (some have him listed at 6-8) has always been a better rebounder than Hill, better 3 point shooter than Hill, and has the same kind of solid playmaking/ball-handling skills.  The major difference between the 2 imo has been one of perception and reputation.  (True story, W*lker's effective field goal % in the 07 playoffs was better than all of Grant Hill's playoff shooting except for Hill as a 23 year old in 95-96).  But this board basically makes my point on the perception game, b/c the main argument the W*lker dectractors use, is simply that "he's done."  Was Grant Hill "done" in 2004, when in the 4 seasons prior he had COMBINED played in only 47 games and even missed an entire season at one point?    I'm sure that many people thought so. 


     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    Well, scratch Anthony Tolliver (MN) and Keith Bogans (CHI) from the list....

    Let's add Brian Skinner, Adam Morrison and Francisco Elson to the list to make it 21....

    Alright my vote for a wing that previously went to Keith will now go to Larry Hughes.  
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : Thank you, I think that's very fair, much more reasonable than the folk who say he is "LOOOOONG OVER." OK, I realize I got all "pop psychology" before when it came to No. 19 on my list, but let's compare Ant*ine's "situation" to someone like Grant Hill... http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2932161 My take.... this guy's biggest obstacle has been an "emotional" one as I talked about in the thread that was taken down... It's not to say one person is weak or one person is strong, but Ant*ine is the type to wear his heart on his sleeve and I think the traumatic events that took place inside his home in July 2007 really shook him to his core, and the above article has clues which suggest this.  And my research has led me to the conclusion that he has sorted through most of his demons and is working himself past exhaustion.  (Nazr Mohammed via twitter has also marvelled at how W*lker is working harder than ever before, which says a lot if you remember the summer of 2003 at Attack Athletics when he went from good shape to phenomenal shape before the Dallas trade.) Grant Hill, meanwhile, didn't have the emotional and financial obstacles, but still had to overcome the countless physical obstacles and injuries to make it back at 33, but with hard work and belief (and a CHANCE to prove he was "back" since he was still under contract with Orlando) he successfully made it back.  And W*lker at 6-9 (some have him listed at 6-8) has always been a better rebounder than Hill, better 3 point shooter than Hill, and has the same kind of solid playmaking/ball-handling skills.  The major difference between the 2 imo has been one of perception and reputation.  (True story, W*lker's effective field goal % in the 07 playoffs was better than all of Grant Hill's playoff shooting except for Hill as a 23 year old in 95-96).  But this board basically makes my point on the perception game, b/c the main argument the W*lker dectractors use, is simply that "he's done."  Was Grant Hill "done" in 2004, when in the 4 seasons prior he had COMBINED played in only 47 games and even missed an entire season at one point?    I'm sure that many people thought so. 
    Posted by toineson[/QUOTE]

    Grant Hill is a way better overall player, better teammate and has the heart and determenation as a beast. It's not for nothing he gets the sportivity trophee year after year. Grant Hill's defense still gets better... Toine days were already over when he finished in Miami, Hill's days are still counting and he looks like he still can handle a couple of years. No way to compare Toine to Hill

     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : Thank you, I think that's very fair, much more reasonable than the folk who say he is "LOOOOONG OVER." OK, I realize I got all "pop psychology" before when it came to No. 19 on my list, but let's compare Ant*ine's "situation" to someone like Grant Hill... http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2932161 My take.... this guy's biggest obstacle has been an "emotional" one as I talked about in the thread that was taken down... It's not to say one person is weak or one person is strong, but Ant*ine is the type to wear his heart on his sleeve and I think the traumatic events that took place inside his home in July 2007 really shook him to his core, and the above article has clues which suggest this.  And my research has led me to the conclusion that he has sorted through most of his demons and is working himself past exhaustion.  (Nazr Mohammed via twitter has also marvelled at how W*lker is working harder than ever before, which says a lot if you remember the summer of 2003 at Attack Athletics when he went from good shape to phenomenal shape before the Dallas trade.) Grant Hill, meanwhile, didn't have the emotional and financial obstacles, but still had to overcome the countless physical obstacles and injuries to make it back at 33, but with hard work and belief (and a CHANCE to prove he was "back" since he was still under contract with Orlando) he successfully made it back.  And W*lker at 6-9 (some have him listed at 6-8) has always been a better rebounder than Hill, better 3 point shooter than Hill, and has the same kind of solid playmaking/ball-handling skills.  The major difference between the 2 imo has been one of perception and reputation.  (True story, W*lker's effective field goal % in the 07 playoffs was better than all of Grant Hill's playoff shooting except for Hill as a 23 year old in 95-96).  But this board basically makes my point on the perception game, b/c the main argument the W*lker dectractors use, is simply that "he's done."  Was Grant Hill "done" in 2004, when in the 4 seasons prior he had COMBINED played in only 47 games and even missed an entire season at one point?    I'm sure that many people thought so. 
    Posted by toineson[/QUOTE]

    Horrible comparison because Grant Hill kept himself in shape and he didn't have the mileage on his legs that Toine does.  Hill wasn't held back because he couldn't play, he was held back due to injury.  Toine is "done" because he's old, overweight, and lost his shooting touch.
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : Grant Hill is a way better overall player, better teammate and has the heart and determenation as a beast. It's not for nothing he gets the sportivity trophee year after year. Grant Hill's defense still gets better... Toine days were already over when he finished in Miami, Hill's days are still counting and he looks like he still can handle a couple of years. No way to compare Toine to Hill
    Posted by MichBelgium[/QUOTE]

    I don't recall making the case that Toine was better than Grant Hill, simply that there are things that Toine does that are better than Grant Hill.  And that BOTH players had to overcome obstacles at around the 32-33 age mark, and actually, Hill's were probably greater since his were more so injury related as opposed to Toine's "gun pointed at head inside home" ones (Toine had injuries in 2008 but nothing like Hill faced).  But a major difference is in how both players are perceived.  Heck, even pop in the 1995 movie "Celtic Pride" to see how Hill's sterling reputation was consistently propped up in the media.  Toine won plenty of "good guy" type awards as I cited on a thread that was removed, and has long been regarded as a good teammate, a guy whose counsel has been sought by the likes of Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal, a guy whose voice was deferred to in the 2006 game 6 finals huddle and respected by Shaq and Wade when the season was on the line. 

    MichBelgium, You continue to cling to the "Toine was over in Miami", and yes, he was not the same player at 31 as he was at 21... yet anyone who watched the 2007 playoffs knows you are flat out wrong about this, or the 2006 playoffs when Toine was the second in scoring for the championship team. 

    But sure, I'll concede that Hill is better, and is still capable of being a starter at 37 going on 38 years old.... but you do nothing to refute the viability of Antoine Walker being a capable 14th or 15th man at 33 going on 34 years old.  I know we aren't fans of Pitino, but he is not at all off base to suggest that Walker could still have 2 or 3 good years left.  The difference is, at this stage it's tough to demonstrate it since he doesn't have a contract. 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : Horrible comparison because Grant Hill kept himself in shape and he didn't have the mileage on his legs that Toine does.  Hill wasn't held back because he couldn't play, he was held back due to injury.  Toine is "done" because he's old, overweight, and lost his shooting touch.
    Posted by Driscoll92587[/QUOTE]

    Toine "is" overweight?  How much does he weigh? 

    Grant Hill, career 30% 3 point shooter... did he lose his shooting touch too?  Actually at 37 he shot a career high in 3's.  But Grant Hill is just old too. 

    Mileage on legs?  So one ancillary benefit of Toine not playing in the NBA last  season was that he probably saved his legs for the next few years? 

    Grant Hill at 32 was clearly "LOOOOONG OVER". 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : I don't recall making the case that Toine was better than Grant Hill, simply that there are things that Toine does that are better than Grant Hill.  And that BOTH players had to overcome obstacles at around the 32-33 age mark, and actually, Hill's were probably greater since his were more so injury related as opposed to Toine's "gun pointed at head inside home" ones (Toine had injuries in 2008 but nothing like Hill faced).  But a major difference is in how both players are perceived.  Heck, even pop in the 1995 movie "Celtic Pride" to see how Hill's sterling reputation was consistently propped up in the media.  Toine won plenty of "good guy" type awards as I cited on a thread that was removed, and has long been regarded as a good teammate, a guy whose counsel has been sought by the likes of Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal, a guy whose voice was deferred to in the 2006 game 6 finals huddle and respected by Shaq and Wade when the season was on the line.  MichBelgium, You continue to cling to the "Toine was over in Miami", and yes, he was not the same player at 31 as he was at 21... yet anyone who watched the 2007 playoffs knows you are flat out wrong about this, or the 2006 playoffs when Toine was the second in scoring for the championship team.  But sure, I'll concede that Hill is better, and is still capable of being a starter at 37 going on 38 years old.... but you do nothing to refute the viability of Antoine Walker being a capable 14th or 15th man at 33 going on 34 years old.  I know we aren't fans of Pitino, but he is not at all off base to suggest that Walker could still have 2 or 3 good years left.  The difference is, at this stage it's tough to demonstrate it since he doesn't have a contract. 
    Posted by toineson[/QUOTE]

    Toine did play well in 2007, but he fizzled out quickly thereafter.  I wouldn't hate having him in a Scalabrine-type role, but I feel that he can't fill any significant spot in the NBA ever again.
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : Toine did play well in 2007, but he fizzled out quickly thereafter.  I wouldn't hate having him in a Scalabrine-type role, but I feel that he can't fill any significant spot in the NBA ever again.
    Posted by Driscoll92587[/QUOTE]

    I know what you mean, I remember how Grant Hill fizzled out quickly after 2000. 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : I know what you mean, I remember how Grant Hill fizzled out quickly after 2000. 
    Posted by toineson[/QUOTE]
    So you don't think he made a spectacular comeback? 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    Why is Delonte West #20?  He's the best basketball player on the list LOL.
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    toineson,

    I always thought you were joking or being sarcastic about a Walker return.

    Walker had some skills and some really awful habits too.  I wondered sometimes if the coaches ever asked him to cool it with the three pointers and get on the box.

    Rasheed is frustrating like that too, but in a different way.  Rasheed is very skilled around the basket and has good footwork to get off good shots but occasionally takes ill-advised threes.  Walker never developed two or three back-to-the-basket basic moves:  dives, drops, fade-aways.  He was big and fast and could handle the ball but just seemed so lost around the basket for a guy with his other physical gifts and basketball IQ.  He was a better interior passer than he was primary interior offensive threat.  I used to cringe when he got the ball low.  I seem to remember his softie offerings being swatted a lot.

    Now about the three point shots.  I don't think Walker ever moved his game from 2 feet from the rim to 5 feet from the rim to 10 feet, 12, 17, etc. in any rational or helpful way.  It seems he showed up 97-98 training camp and annouced he would hereafter be hauling treys whenever it suited him regardless of the offense or his abilities  Point is, he never developed a reliable two point shot or free throw, nevermind a three.

    He doesn't play within himself.  I don't think we need a guy like that here to be 14th on the bench.  Ask him to get in there and box out and carve out some space in the paint and run some deeks sweet kicks to Ray Ray and pick-n-rolls and you're just as likely to get him playing zero defense and running, if not dribbling, to the opponent's three line and hauling it up there.  There is no rhyme or reason to his game.  One thing that drove me basically insane when Antoine Walker played for the Celtics is the point guard position basically became irrelevant.  Walker forced his team to play 4 on 5 because he handled the ball way too much.  I wonder if he's mental?  Does he take the antidepressants like Delonte?

    peace
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    btw, is he in NBA condition?
     
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    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]toineson, I always thought you were joking or being sarcastic about a Walker return. Walker had some skills and some really awful habits too.  I wondered sometimes if the coaches ever asked him to cool it with the three pointers and get on the box. Rasheed is frustrating like that too, but in a different way.  Rasheed is very skilled around the basket and has good footwork to get off good shots but occasionally takes ill-advised threes.  Walker never developed two or three back-to-the-basket basic moves:  dives, drops, fade-aways.  He was big and fast and could handle the ball but just seemed so lost around the basket for a guy with his other physical gifts and basketball IQ.  He was a better interior passer than he was primary interior offensive threat.  I used to cringe when he got the ball low.  I seem to remember his softie offerings being swatted a lot. Now about the three point shots.  I don't think Walker ever moved his game from 2 feet from the rim to 5 feet from the rim to 10 feet, 12, 17, etc. in any rational or helpful way.  It seems he showed up 97-98 training camp and annouced he would hereafter be hauling treys whenever it suited him regardless of the offense or his abilities  Point is, he never developed a reliable two point shot or free throw, nevermind a three. He doesn't play within himself.  I don't think we need a guy like that here to be 14th on the bench.  Ask him to get in there and box out and carve out some space in the paint and run some deeks sweet kicks to Ray Ray and pick-n-rolls and you're just as likely to get him playing zero defense and running, if not dribbling, to the opponent's three line and hauling it up there.  There is no rhyme or reason to his game.  One thing that drove me basically insane when Antoine Walker played for the Celtics is the point guard position basically became irrelevant.  Walker forced his team to play 4 on 5 because he handled the ball way too much.  I wonder if he's mental?  Does he take the antidepressants like Delonte? peace
    Posted by shines01[/QUOTE]

    Alright for starters, I'm still a little miffed that they removed the entire "BRING BACK TOINE" thread, so forgive me for repeating myself a bit here.  Shines01--I know you're just giving your honest feedback, but you also do a pretty good job of summarizing the popular, and negative, narrative on Antoine Walker. 

    Unfortunately, there tend to be a number of important points missing from write-ups like these.  I can never tell if it's just a matter of ignorance or just that people are incapable of giving the guy his due for whatever reason...

    1).  Toine the tweener.

    Obviously Antoine Walker has offended the sensibilities of many fans who are used to seeing a power forward playing the power game on the block.... 

    But for a little context... if you go back and re-watch draft night 1996, Rick Pitino even says:  "What people don't realize is that he (Antoine) can play a little power forward as well."

    Translation:  Pitino was noting that Antoine was really a 3, but also had the versatility to play a little bit at the 4 as well.  IMO, Antoine as a 4 was somewhat playing out of position.  He was generously listed at 6-9, but the 6-8 you also see listed on places like basketball reference is probably closer to reality.  He didn't have the long arms or good hops/great athleticism to compensate for this height disadvantage either.  What he did have though was the strong ball-handling and playmaking skills and the ability to "switch gears" and to throw the opposition off since it was difficult to predict sometimes what he would do, keeping them guessing.  And he could use his relative quickness against bigger 4's to his advantage by sometimes playing the "stretch 4" role and by blowing by them so he could avoid getting his shot blocked--it was difficult for him to go straight up.  When Pat Riley traded for him in 2005, he described Antoine as being "Magic Johnson with the 3's."   Now sure, that's hyperbole flowing at a press conference, and I don't want people calling me out on making a "horrible comparison" in making the case that Antoine Walker was at the same level as Magic ha.  I'm just reporting what Riles said.  BUT this is instructive because it informs how we SHOULD PERCEIVE a player like Walker.  Point forward skills.  Amazing versatility, a must for a tweener like Toine.  Good passer.  Good leadership qualities.  Good rebounder.  Ability to score in spurts.  Now in Boston, Walker did play the 4 since there was a lack of size and personnel, and because of who the coaches were.  But in Miami when they won the championship he was primarily playing the 3, really not surprising.     

    Unfortunately, a lot of people prefer to knock Walker for not being the rugged interior bruiser that they wanted him to be, for not being more like a Kevin Garnett or Rasheed Wallace.  Frankly that got pretty old after awhile.  Different players with different talents and different games.  Could you imagine Rasheed Wallace consistently pulling off the "point forward" role, pushing the ball up the court as Toine does in the following clip at the 0:40 mark?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxdrkty1kmg

    I prefer to think about it this way... if only Walker had Lamar Odom's build, a little taller, the arm length, greater athleticism...  People sometimes knock Odom for being too passive, not always engaged, not being fired up.  Well, another way of saying this is that it's too bad Odom doesn't have Walker's fiery energy.  With Odom's build, my personal opinion is that Toine could have gone from a 3 time all-star to a top 5 to 10 player in the NBA.  Toine wasn't without his faults but I thought he negotiated the "tweener" hand he was dealt rather well and has had a darn good career thanks to his overall versatility and competitiveness. Players like Brandon Hunter, meanwhile, try to have that interior power game with the 6-7 or 6-8 build and 260 lbs but USUALLY (not always), but usually, don't seem to have much staying power.  MAYBE if he would have gained 75 pounds he could have pulled off the Big Baby Davis routine, but then you are throwing away the marvellous gifts that Walker already brought to the table. 

    2).  You say you couldn't stand Walker playing point forward at times, but you also conveniently leave out that the Celtics were never blessed with a top notch point guard.  They had Kenny Anderson on the downside of his career, and after Anderson left?  Hmmm, an undrafted rookie named J.R. Bremer (memba him??) was forced to start HALF of their games in 02-03, and the guy was out of the NBA within a year later.  Walker was the team's best playmaker, was rather good at setting up Paul Pierce, and frankly he was forced into doing a little bit of everything to help the team win... AND also he was comfortable with deferring to the younger Pierce and helping him build up his confidence.  And there is NO understating this, the NBA graveyard is littered with tandems that were undermined by underlying jealousy over who was getting the most shots or getting paid the most $$.  Big Dog and Ray Allen in Milwaukee, Shaq and Kobe obviously, Garnett and Starbury in MN, we saw with Iverson in the early years whether it was Stackhouse or Hughes or Van Horn that there would be problems.  Which is why I don't get a lot of the talk about Walker having a humongous ego (sure he had self-confidence which is an important quality to have), but Pierce had the bigger contract, was getting most of the credit from the fans and the media (which is a travesty in my book) and yet Walker accepted all of this in stride and still went out every night and tried to give his very best.  Actually, all I ever seem to hear about are former teammates talking about how great of a leader Walker is, how much they respect him as a person.  Most recently it was Wade at the Miami Thrice conference invoking Walker, heck even in the 2005 playoffs the OPPOSITION, Pacers players Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson were sticking up for him.  In Atlanta it was Head Coach Mike Woodson talking up the toine's strong leadership qualities (he was even doing it this past year!! Too bad Woodson is gone now and they made the mistake of signing Josh Powell)

    http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/Antoine_Walker_feature_111604.html

    “He’s been a true professional about his approach on and off the floor,” said Woodson. “I respect everything about Antoine and what he’s done. But it’s going to take a team effort from everybody. We can’t just rely on Antoine Walker.”

    “He comes to work every day, he tries to help the young guys and the young guys feed off of veteran guys like that,” Woodson continued. “He’s played on some good teams. He’s made the playoffs. He’s doing everything that we need Antoine Walker to do. I just hope that what he’s doing will have a nice carryover to the games for some of the young guys to follow.”

    Walker has always come to work, as illustrated by his durability throughout his career. Walker has played in all 82 games four seasons, and in 81 games two other times. The most games he’s missed in an 82-game slate are four in 2002-03.

    “I’m very proud of that,” said Walker. “I try to go out in the summer and work hard with my trainer and try to get in the best shape possible and try to stay focused. I don’t take too much time off in the summer.”

    (Heh, funny enough in 2005, after Walker left Atlanta they only won 2 more games in the final 2 months, while the Celtics became sleeper championship contenders with Walker).

    But of course the Boston Globe preferred to call Antoine Walker a "punk", choosing to tear the guy down.  NEWSFLASH:  The Celtics were bad BEFORE Walker got to Boston, and victory is in the struggle as it should be.... Walker and Pierce plus a talent starved roster built things back up, got us to our first conf finals in 14 years, and after Walker was traded WE WERE AWFUL AGAIN (the only bright spot came when Walker returned obviously).  IN 06-07, yes we had injuries but we had more than enough talent there imo to avoid going 24-58!!  So yes folks, a little perspective would be helpful instead of just crapping all over Antoine and calling him "mental."

    3).  You seem to be criticizing Antoine's mid-range game, but you could just as easily substitute Antoine's name for many, many players in this day and age, who DON'T have Antoine's versatility.  And.... Careful there, you unwittingly give ammunition to Lakers fans when you talk up the mid-range game and how a lot of players are lacking here.  The dirty little secret in the Kobe vs Lebron debate which is usually not mentioned... last season, even with a mangled pinkie and broken index finger on his shooting hand, Kobe shot 49% from 10 to 15 feet, while Lebronze shot 32%.  Just sayin...

    4).  Shot selection, 3's, who the coach was, etc.... Indiana's head coach is currently Jim O'Brien (Boston Coach from 2001-2004).... Anyone else notice that Indiana's Danny Granger, who plays both PF and SF, attempted a league high over 7 threes a game this past season?  That Troy Murphy DOUBLED his per game average in 3's attempted as a member of Jim O'Brien's Pacers?  Sound familiar?

    Hate to break it to you people who love to rip on Antoine for shooting so many threes, but this was the coach's preference, and it still is O'Brien's preference.  The problem is that many people simply ignore this fact (or aren't even aware of it).  You present it as black and white, solely focusing on Antoine's poor shot selection, but that is not even close to being the full story.  And conveniently, you leave out that Pierce was also jacking up cringe-worthy shots.  To repeat:  Both Antoine Walker and Paul Pierce had an effective field goal % of 45% in 2002-03, BOTH WERE GUNNERS.  That was the game plan.  There wasn't much talent around them, so the gameplan was to get up the most shots and focus in on D.  It wasn't always pretty, but it got respectable results all things considered.  And when O'Brien wasn't his coach, Walker's 3 point attempts obv dropped considerably.  Sounds to me like people are knocking Antoine Walker for doing what he was told. 

    5).  The mere fact that you thought I was joking in my support of a Toine return basically backs up my point about how so much of the Antoine Walker discussion is mired in falsehoods and unfair perceptions.  I hypothesized in the thread that was taken down about how Walker's image and reputation would have been so much better had it not been for the likes of Bob "punk" Ryan or Peter May, or the weight of the awesome Boston legacy and history.  Bill Simmons summed it up perfectly:  "Most fans (in other cities) would have loved him (Walker), but we tolerated him." 

    I wonder if he's mental?  Frown

    Well, he's not perfect!  He's human like the rest of us.

    My goodness, I can even remember an article by Peter May in 2001.  Walker was having a brilliant year, posting averages of over 23 points, 9 rebounds and roughly 5.5 assists... and May even concedes that he should have been an all-star compared to some of the jokers that got in, but he surmises that the reason for his absence was because of his "body language" and because of the false perception that he was the reason for Rick Pitino's resignation, so he was a "coach killer."  UHHHH.  So ridiculous.  Well maybe if he wasn't branded a "punk", language that is completely inflammatory and inexcusable by the way, by the local media, and MAYBE if the fans weren't apt to BOO him mercilessly, just shameful.... then MAYBE the NATIONAL media and perception would have been much more favorable.  No one person is without blame in how they are perceived, but let's be honest for a second... the media does plenty to drum up controversy and to make scapegoats out of people who don't deserve to be.  And the habit sadly persisted even after Toine left Boston... the best Walker can do is to not get criticized, b/c you will be hard pressed to see people give him credit for ANYTHING.  So when he was second in scoring in the 2006 finals for the CHAMPIONSHIP team...  Oh you won't hear that mentioned hardly at all.  You won't hear about his heroics in round 2 vs the Nets.  If this had been a part of the popular narrative, you wouldn't see people like MichBelgium talking about how he was "done" already in Miami. 

    Perception vs reality.  Oh we could easly paint a negative portrait of ANYONE, including a guy like Robert Horry, how he was a PUNK in his first few seasons... Oh look at him, he threw a towel at his coach!!  He's mental!!  Look at his out of control ego!  IMAGINE IF ANTOINE WALKER HAD THROWN A TOWEL AT HIS COACH.  Not a team player!!  And look, Horry is 6-10 and camps out on the perimeter too often, even though he had 4 consecutive seasons in which he shot under 33% from 3's!! Doesn't have the strong inside game, is an inferior rebounder to Antoine Walker, inferior ball handler and passer, he's a bit lankier so he gets the edge on blocks but that's about it.  But the guy has a few big shots in the playoffs and iconic moments, and some people now actually laud the guy as Hall of Fame material.  The guy never even averaged over 12 points per game, and never played in a Obie's 3 pointer system that probably hurt Antoine's overall career 3 point efficiency (notice how Toine with a Shaq past his prime in 05-06 actually had a HIGHER 3 point percentage--35.8%-- than 5 out of Horry's 7 seasons with the Lakers when he played with Shaq at his zenith).

     

    Yet Horry played til he was 37.  He was "Big Shot Bob" don't you know!!  Heck of a guy!  Well, Toine may not have as many iconic playoff moments, but he's had plenty of clutch playoff performances even if people choose to dismiss them or simply weren't paying close enough attention.  And other than maybe David Wesley, good luck finding a SINGLE former teammate that would knock him as a person.  Yet people believe that to suggest an in shape Toine at 33 going on 34 contributing on a playoff team, is a joke?  Yeah, something tells me that the name "Antoine Walker" conjures up way too many negative connotations (most of which are blatant b.s. in my book) that render most people incapable of having a reasonable discussion about the guy. 

    toineson, I always thought you were joking or being sarcastic about a Walker return. 

    Give me a break!  Are you the one that's joking? 

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=17026

    Hoopsworld just listed Antoine on this list of remaining free agents, and while there are a lot of names here, this list is still by no means exhaustive.  Are they joking about Antoine as well? 
     
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    [QUOTE]Why is Delonte West #20?  He's the best basketball player on the list LOL.
    Posted by jm02130[/QUOTE]

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : So you don't think he made a spectacular comeback? 
    Posted by MichBelgium[/QUOTE]

    What am I gonna do with you people, huh?  LOL
     
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    Well, thankfully it looks like we can scratch TMAC off the list as well. 
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : Alright for starters, I'm still a little miffed that they removed the entire "BRING BACK TOINE" thread, so forgive me for repeating myself a bit here.  Shines01--I know you're just giving your honest feedback, but you also do a pretty good job of summarizing the popular, and negative, narrative on Antoine Walker.  Unfortunately, there tend to be a number of important points missing from write-ups like these.  I can never tell if it's just a matter of ignorance or just that people are incapable of giving the guy his due for whatever reason... 1).  Toine the tweener. Obviously Antoine Walker has offended the sensibilities of many fans who are used to seeing a power forward playing the power game on the block....  But for a little context... if you go back and re-watch draft night 1996, Rick Pitino even says:  "What people don't realize is that he (Antoine) can play a little power forward as well." Translation:  Pitino was noting that Antoine was really a 3, but also had the versatility to play a little bit at the 4 as well.  IMO, Antoine as a 4 was somewhat playing out of position.  He was generously listed at 6-9, but the 6-8 you also see listed on places like basketball reference is probably closer to reality.  He didn't have the long arms or good hops/great athleticism to compensate for this height disadvantage either.  What he did have though was the strong ball-handling and playmaking skills and the ability to "switch gears" and to throw the opposition off since it was difficult to predict sometimes what he would do, keeping them guessing.  And he could use his relative quickness against bigger 4's to his advantage by sometimes playing the "stretch 4" role and by blowing by them so he could avoid getting his shot blocked--it was difficult for him to go straight up.  When Pat Riley traded for him in 2005, he described Antoine as being "Magic Johnson with the 3's."   Now sure, that's hyperbole flowing at a press conference, and I don't want people calling me out on making a "horrible comparison" in making the case that Antoine Walker was at the same level as Magic ha.  I'm just reporting what Riles said.  BUT this is instructive because it informs how we SHOULD PERCEIVE a player like Walker.  Point forward skills.  Amazing versatility, a must for a tweener like Toine.  Good passer.  Good leadership qualities.  Good rebounder.  Ability to score in spurts.  Now in Boston, Walker did play the 4 since there was a lack of size and personnel, and because of who the coaches were.  But in Miami when they won the championship he was primarily playing the 3, really not surprising.      Unfortunately, a lot of people prefer to knock Walker for not being the rugged interior bruiser that they wanted him to be, for not being more like a Kevin Garnett or Rasheed Wallace.  Frankly that got pretty old after awhile.  Different players with different talents and different games.  Could you imagine Rasheed Wallace consistently pulling off the "point forward" role, pushing the ball up the court as Toine does in the following clip at the 0:40 mark? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxdrkty1kmg I prefer to think about it this way... if only Walker had Lamar Odom's build, a little taller, the arm length, greater athleticism...  People sometimes knock Odom for being too passive, not always engaged, not being fired up.  Well, another way of saying this is that it's too bad Odom doesn't have Walker's fiery energy.  With Odom's build, my personal opinion is that Toine could have gone from a 3 time all-star to a top 5 to 10 player in the NBA.  Toine wasn't without his faults but I thought he negotiated the "tweener" hand he was dealt rather well and has had a darn good career thanks to his overall versatility and competitiveness. Players like Brandon Hunter, meanwhile, try to have that interior power game with the 6-7 or 6-8 build and 260 lbs but USUALLY (not always), but usually, don't seem to have much staying power.  MAYBE if he would have gained 75 pounds he could have pulled off the Big Baby Davis routine, but then you are throwing away the marvellous gifts that Walker already brought to the table.  2).  You say you couldn't stand Walker playing point forward at times, but you also conveniently leave out that the Celtics were never blessed with a top notch point guard.  They had Kenny Anderson on the downside of his career, and after Anderson left?  Hmmm, an undrafted rookie named J.R. Bremer (memba him??) was forced to start HALF of their games in 02-03, and the guy was out of the NBA within a year later.  Walker was the team's best playmaker, was rather good at setting up Paul Pierce, and frankly he was forced into doing a little bit of everything to help the team win... AND also he was comfortable with deferring to the younger Pierce and helping him build up his confidence.  And there is NO understating this, the NBA graveyard is littered with tandems that were undermined by underlying jealousy over who was getting the most shots or getting paid the most $$.  Big Dog and Ray Allen in Milwaukee, Shaq and Kobe obviously, Garnett and Starbury in MN, we saw with Iverson in the early years whether it was Stackhouse or Hughes or Van Horn that there would be problems.  Which is why I don't get a lot of the talk about Walker having a humongous ego (sure he had self-confidence which is an important quality to have), but Pierce had the bigger contract, was getting most of the credit from the fans and the media (which is a travesty in my book) and yet Walker accepted all of this in stride and still went out every night and tried to give his very best.  Actually, all I ever seem to hear about are former teammates talking about how great of a leader Walker is, how much they respect him as a person.  Most recently it was Wade at the Miami Thrice conference invoking Walker, heck even in the 2005 playoffs the OPPOSITION, Pacers players Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson were sticking up for him.  In Atlanta it was Head Coach Mike Woodson talking up the toine's strong leadership qualities (he was even doing it this past year!! Too bad Woodson is gone now and they made the mistake of signing Josh Powell) http://www.nba.com/hawks/news/Antoine_Walker_feature_111604.html “He’s been a true professional about his approach on and off the floor,” said Woodson. “I respect everything about Antoine and what he’s done. But it’s going to take a team effort from everybody. We can’t just rely on Antoine Walker.” “He comes to work every day, he tries to help the young guys and the young guys feed off of veteran guys like that,” Woodson continued. “He’s played on some good teams. He’s made the playoffs. He’s doing everything that we need Antoine Walker to do. I just hope that what he’s doing will have a nice carryover to the games for some of the young guys to follow.” Walker has always come to work, as illustrated by his durability throughout his career. Walker has played in all 82 games four seasons, and in 81 games two other times. The most games he’s missed in an 82-game slate are four in 2002-03. “I’m very proud of that,” said Walker. “I try to go out in the summer and work hard with my trainer and try to get in the best shape possible and try to stay focused. I don’t take too much time off in the summer.” (Heh, funny enough in 2005, after Walker left Atlanta they only won 2 more games in the final 2 months, while the Celtics became sleeper championship contenders with Walker). But of course the Boston Globe preferred to call Antoine Walker a "punk", choosing to tear the guy down.  NEWSFLASH:  The Celtics were bad BEFORE Walker got to Boston, and victory is in the struggle as it should be.... Walker and Pierce plus a talent starved roster built things back up, got us to our first conf finals in 14 years, and after Walker was traded WE WERE AWFUL AGAIN (the only bright spot came when Walker returned obviously).  IN 06-07, yes we had injuries but we had more than enough talent there imo to avoid going 24-58!!  So yes folks, a little perspective would be helpful instead of just crapping all over Antoine and calling him "mental." 3).  You seem to be criticizing Antoine's mid-range game, but you could just as easily substitute Antoine's name for many, many players in this day and age, who DON'T have Antoine's versatility.  And.... Careful there, you unwittingly give ammunition to Lakers fans when you talk up the mid-range game and how a lot of players are lacking here.  The dirty little secret in the Kobe vs Lebron debate which is usually not mentioned... last season, even with a mangled pinkie and broken index finger on his shooting hand, Kobe shot 49% from 10 to 15 feet, while Lebronze shot 32%.  Just sayin... 4).  Shot selection, 3's, who the coach was, etc.... Indiana's head coach is currently Jim O'Brien (Boston Coach from 2001-2004).... Anyone else notice that Indiana's Danny Granger, who plays both PF and SF, attempted a league high over 7 threes a game this past season?  That Troy Murphy DOUBLED his per game average in 3's attempted as a member of Jim O'Brien's Pacers?  Sound familiar? Hate to break it to you people who love to rip on Antoine for shooting so many threes, but this was the coach's preference, and it still is O'Brien's preference.  The problem is that many people simply ignore this fact (or aren't even aware of it).  You present it as black and white, solely focusing on Antoine's poor shot selection, but that is not even close to being the full story.  And conveniently, you leave out that Pierce was also jacking up cringe-worthy shots.  To repeat:  Both Antoine Walker and Paul Pierce had an effective field goal % of 45% in 2002-03, BOTH WERE GUNNERS.  That was the game plan.  There wasn't much talent around them, so the gameplan was to get up the most shots and focus in on D.  It wasn't always pretty, but it got respectable results all things considered.  And when O'Brien wasn't his coach, Walker's 3 point attempts obv dropped considerably.  Sounds to me like people are knocking Antoine Walker for doing what he was told.  5).  The mere fact that you thought I was joking in my support of a Toine return basically backs up my point about how so much of the Antoine Walker discussion is mired in falsehoods and unfair perceptions.  I hypothesized in the thread that was taken down about how Walker's image and reputation would have been so much better had it not been for the likes of Bob "punk" Ryan or Peter May, or the weight of the awesome Boston legacy and history.  Bill Simmons summed it up perfectly:  "Most fans (in other cities) would have loved him (Walker), but we tolerated him."  I wonder if he's mental?  Well, he's not perfect!  He's human like the rest of us. My goodness, I can even remember an article by Peter May in 2001.  Walker was having a brilliant year, posting averages of over 23 points, 9 rebounds and roughly 5.5 assists... and May even concedes that he should have been an all-star compared to some of the jokers that got in, but he surmises that the reason for his absence was because of his "body language" and because of the false perception that he was the reason for Rick Pitino's resignation, so he was a "coach killer."  UHHHH.  So ridiculous.  Well maybe if he wasn't branded a "punk", language that is completely inflammatory and inexcusable by the way, by the local media, and MAYBE if the fans weren't apt to BOO him mercilessly, just shameful.... then MAYBE the NATIONAL media and perception would have been much more favorable.  No one person is without blame in how they are perceived, but let's be honest for a second... the media does plenty to drum up controversy and to make scapegoats out of people who don't deserve to be.  And the habit sadly persisted even after Toine left Boston... the best Walker can do is to not get criticized, b/c you will be hard pressed to see people give him credit for ANYTHING.  So when he was second in scoring in the 2006 finals for the CHAMPIONSHIP team...  Oh you won't hear that mentioned hardly at all.  You won't hear about his heroics in round 2 vs the Nets.  If this had been a part of the popular narrative, you wouldn't see people like MichBelgium talking about how he was "done" already in Miami.  Perception vs reality.  Oh we could easly paint a negative portrait of ANYONE, including a guy like Robert Horry, how he was a PUNK in his first few seasons... Oh look at him, he threw a towel at his coach!!  He's mental!!  Look at his out of control ego!  IMAGINE IF ANTOINE WALKER HAD THROWN A TOWEL AT HIS COACH.  Not a team player!!  And look, Horry is 6-10 and camps out on the perimeter too often, even though he had 4 consecutive seasons in which he shot under 33% from 3's!! Doesn't have the strong inside game, is an inferior rebounder to Antoine Walker, inferior ball handler and passer, he's a bit lankier so he gets the edge on blocks but that's about it.  But the guy has a few big shots in the playoffs and iconic moments, and some people now actually laud the guy as Hall of Fame material.  The guy never even averaged over 12 points per game, and never played in a Obie's 3 pointer system that probably hurt Antoine's overall career 3 point efficiency (notice how Toine with a Shaq past his prime in 05-06 actually had a HIGHER 3 point percentage--35.8%-- than 5 out of Horry's 7 seasons with the Lakers when he played with Shaq at his zenith).  Yet Horry played til he was 37.  He was "Big Shot Bob" don't you know!!  Heck of a guy!  Well, Toine may not have as many iconic playoff moments, but he's had plenty of clutch playoff performances even if people choose to dismiss them or simply weren't paying close enough attention.  And other than maybe David Wesley, good luck finding a SINGLE former teammate that would knock him as a person.  Yet people believe that to suggest an in shape Toine at 33 going on 34 contributing on a playoff team, is a joke?  Yeah, something tells me that the name "Antoine Walker" conjures up way too many negative connotations (most of which are blatant b.s. in my book) that render most people incapable of having a reasonable discussion about the guy.  toineson, I always thought you were joking or being sarcastic about a Walker return.  Give me a break!  Are you the one that's joking?  http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=17026 Hoopsworld just listed Antoine on this list of remaining free agents, and while there are a lot of names here, this list is still by no means exhaustive.  Are they joking about Antoine as well? 
    Posted by toineson[/QUOTE]

    dang man.  got some verbosity issues.... :-O
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : dang man.  got some verbosity issues.... :-O
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]

    Heh, I think it was Mem17 or someone who called me out on that in another thread. 

    But remember...

    1).  The Oct 2009 Boston Globe story detailing Antoine's money problems was longer.  So, naturally, I think it's fair that some pro-Antoine talk of similar length is out there. The negative spin on everything Antoine-related usually is talked up so much that it's impossible to get equal time.  But thank you for pointing out the length heh, you are fantastic at stating the obvious my friend. 

    2).  A lot of you knock Antoine for his shot selection.... Am I wrong about Jim O'Brien's influence on the large quantity of 3 point attempts?  Are Danny Granger and Troy Murphy the same type of "molded knuckleheads" as Antoine?   Just looking for some consistency here folks. 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's :............. 2).  A lot of you knock Antoine for his shot selection.... Am I wrong about Jim O'Brien's influence on the large quantity of 3 point attempts?  Are Danny Granger and Troy Murphy the same type of "molded knuckleheads" as Antoine?   Just looking for some consistency here folks. 
    Posted by toineson[/QUOT

    granger and murphy both shoot the 3 @ 38.5% and 39.5% for their respective careers = respectable.  twon bombed treys at an average of 32.5% a game.  not acceptable or respectable.  if he shot 38 or 39% he would have been over 20 ppg every year........ 

    you will find consistency in the statistics regarding efficiency.  the biggest problem with twon over the years was his field goal effiiciency, followed by a consistent drop off in rebounding and then a close third in the hat trick after that was an alarming disintegration on the free throw line- especially for an "outside shooter".

    so while twon had some heroic moments, was a genuinely good person, did some nice things in the clutch for us, his skills eroded alarmingly over time along with his conditioning routines.  i think that about sums it up.

    i hope he can turn things around and make a comeback.  but it would have to be considered rather unlikely- his last year in Minny on a bad team he shot 36% FG's and 53% free throws- rough stuff.
     
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    In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's : [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's :............. 2).  A lot of you knock Antoine for his shot selection.... Am I wrong about Jim O'Brien's influence on the large quantity of 3 point attempts?  Are Danny Granger and Troy Murphy the same type of "molded knuckleheads" as Antoine?   Just looking for some consistency here folks.  Posted by toineson[/QUOT granger and murphy both shoot the 3 @ 38.5% and 39.5% for their respective careers = respectable.  twon bombed treys at an average of 32.5% a game.  not acceptable or respectable.  if he shot 38 or 39% he would have been over 20 ppg every year........  you will find consistency in the statistics regarding efficiency.  the biggest problem with twon over the years was his field goal effiiciency, followed by a consistent drop off in rebounding and then a close third in the hat trick after that was an alarming disintegration on the free throw line- especially for an "outside shooter". so while twon had some heroic moments, was a genuinely good person, did some nice things in the clutch for us, his skills eroded alarmingly over time along with his conditioning routines.  i think that about sums it up. i hope he can turn things around and make a comeback.  but it would have to be considered rather unlikely- his last year in Minny on a bad team he shot 36% FG's and 53% free throws- rough stuff.
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]

    Jim O'Brien encouraged the extra 3 point attempts, that's the point just in case you missed it.  Antoine's uptick in 3 point attempts from 01-03 coincides with O'Brien's tenure as Celtics coach, starting in 2001 when Walker shot 36% from 3's.  The point is not that Walker is as accurate a 3 point shooter as Granger, but that the extra 3's were part of O'Brien's gameplan.   This is why Indiana is brought up.  Primarily the blame should be placed on Jim O'Brien if you don't like that style of play, but it got good results so I'm not complaining. 

    The operative comparison is Robert Horry.  There is a double standard here in perception; Horry was not the sharpshooter everyone likes to portray him as, and at 6-10 he never really developed a consistent inside game.   And to repeat... Toine with a Shaq past his prime in 05-06 actually had a HIGHER 3 point percentage--35.8%-- than 5 out of Horry's 7 seasons with the Lakers when he played with Shaq at his zenith).  In the playoffs Walker is a career 35.2% 3 point shooter, while Horry is a career 35.9%--(Horry with larger sample size though, twice as many attempts).  Horry had 6 seasons with an overall field goal % that was below 40%.  And Horry played until he was 37.  The point here is NOT to rip on Robert Horry, but to point out that it's a little bit disingenous for people (not you necessarily aciemvp) to act like Antoine can't be a solid role player who can knock down the big 3's and do a little bit of everything--the rebounds, the ballhandling, the encouragement and leadership, etc.  Horry's reputation became rather inflated, while Antoine can't seem to catch a break in perception.  (This is NOT to diminish the importance and impact of some of "Big Shot Bob's" shots, but if we want to cherry pick negative things on people we can do it here too... again, if an ANtoine Walker had thrown a towel at his coach, just seeing how people are quick to knock the guy it makes you wonder if he would have shortly thereafter been banned from the league lol). 

    As for rebounding, Toine is the better rebounder per 36 minutes than both Robert Horry and Tim Thomas despite being shorter.  Tim Thomas is also 33, and is a much better example of a career underachiever than Antoine Walker (who again, imo overachieved).  Thomas is expected to command the vet minimum from Dallas this season.  Hopefully some comparative market analysis will be performed league-wide and a team realizes that Antoine can be just as quality of a  "just in case" player.  But groupthink can be pretty powerful, and it's probably Antoine's biggest obstacle right now  To repeat, conditioning will not be an issue for Antoine Walker, and if you look at his career overall it hardly ever has been.  Now before ya'll rush to say that's b.s., we already got into this a bit on the Nostalgia thread.  And I'm tired of repeating myself. 

    To be perfectly honest though, seeing how most are quick to knock the guy and not stick up for him and to not give him the benefit of the doubt, although they then claim they are rooting for him which I find somewhat hard to believe... and going back to the earlier poll where 30% said they couldn't even stand the guy despite all the good he did for us... frankly at this point I wouldn't blame him if the Lakers offered him the "15th man" role and he took it.  AT one point that would have bothered me but not anymore.  I could see Toine with his passing and creativity and ability to get hot from 3, I could see him being a good fit in the triangle, esp now with Luke Walton likely out for the year and Matt Barnes' 31% 3PT shooting last season despite having Dwight Howard down low to draw the extra defensive attention. 
     
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    Re: Toineson's Top 20 Remaining FA's

    you know, if twon really got into shape, he'd be best off to go to europe and play for the next 7 or 8 years.  michael ray richardson is possibly still playing over there and played until at least the age of 45.  it'd be more money for twon and he'd probably keep himself out of trouble a lot better in a strange land.
     

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