Was Red the best coach ever?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Was Red the best coach ever?

    Was Red Auerbach the greatest NBA coach of all time?

    It's indisputable that he's one of the best. But the very best? I'm not too sure.

    Before anyone jumps down my throat I'll explain why. While a revolutionary coach with his ideas, the 9 titles he won as a coach, did not happen until Russell arrived at the Celtics.

    It didn't take two or three years to work Russell into the team, they started to win titles immediately. Wherever Russell went he won, I don't believe in coincidence. Which to me signifies that it was Russell, not Red who was the reason for the success.

    This is also illustrated in the 1958 season where Russell was injured. Does this Celtics team that won the 1957 title win without Russell in 1958? You think they'd be strong enough to. But no, they don't. Why? They have a great coach, and a superb roster of future hall of famers and some very smart basketball guys. But they don't win. No Russell, no title. At least not with that side.

    Russell returns for the next season, fit and the Celtics start their run of championships. Other players perform their heroics to win titles, thinking here about stolen balls, and last minute shots. But Russell is still the reason they are in that position to win the championship. You take him out and would Havliceck have been in that position to have stolen the ball, would Cousey have been dribbling out the shot clock? I don't think so. I really don't think so.
     
    I think Red while being an ingredient into the teams success, wasn't the main reason they were winning. That's just the view of someone looking at this as history. Russell won everywhere, the guy was the ultimate winner. If he goes to St Louis they'd have been winning multiple titles.
     
    My main point about the coaching is that Russell, as a rookie coach, takes a Celtic team that is nowhere near as strong as the sides from the early 60's. Took the team to two titles. As a rookie player/coach. Does this mean that Lenny Wilkins could have been bought in to coach a Russell led team and win two titles? More than likely, perhaps he'd need to have the players respect, which Russell had. Both Red and Russell had the respect of their teams. But it's just that Russell, not ever coaching before. Yet can win two titles as a rookie coach. Makes me think that almost any coach with decent man management skills could well have led that Celtics side to success, providing Russell remains healthy.

    People blame coaches when a team loses, but it's the players who are out there scoring the points. Phil Jackson may well have won eight titles in a row if Jordan did not retire from basketball for the 93/94 season. He returned in 94/95 but he didn't have that full season under his belt. Do we believe that the Houston Rockets would have been a match for a Jordan led Bulls side? More than likely they'd lose like the other teams that played The Bulls in the Finals. Jacksons legacy was forged in Chicago, thanks to Jordan. Although unlike Red, Jackson didn't start to win championships immediately with Jordan. Took a couple of years until they could beat Detroit, some would even suggest that rule changes enabled this. Jackson is another good to great coach.

    But coaching greatness is harder to define than winning championships. Jerry Sloan is a great coach who has not won a title. Where would he rate in the all time lists of great NBA coaches, you could say that he's a better coach than some who have won titles.
     
    Red was a great administrator, a great eye for basketball talent, he broke racial barriers and he was a great coach. But was Red the best? Would he have won any titles as a coach without Bill Russell? Could he have coached a champion team, without the champion? Which is rare but it does happen. I really don't know. In my mind, Russell is the key to it all when it comes to Reds NBA titles as a coach.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Marc627. Show Marc627's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    so dumb any1 who reads my post please no reponses
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    In Response to Re: Was Red the best coach ever?:
    [QUOTE]so dumb any1 who reads my post please no reponses
    Posted by Marc627[/QUOTE]

    That's your response?

    Russell made Red the coach of legend.

    I'll illustrate my point with some statistics.

    Before Russells arrival with the Cetlics Red had coached the Celtics Red's record was not, what could be called great. He coached the team for 422 regular season games. He won 241 of them. Giving a winning percentage of 0.571. Which is a good percentage.

    However his play off percentage during this period left much to be desired. I'm not sure if injury played a role during this time but let's look at the stats. Between 50/51 and 55/56 Red's Cetlics played in 27 post season games. They won 10 of them. 10. Not what anyone would describe as being a good result. A percentage of 0.370.

    Of course Russell arrives in 56/57 and Red starts to win NBA titles.

    Now Russell as a Cetlics coach. It can be argued for and against that he had a weaker team that those that the Celtics possessed in the 60's.
     
    However, let's compare his 3 seasons as being a Celtics coach to Reds pre-Russell seasons.

    Regular season Russell coached the Celtics in 245 games. The Celtics won 162 of them giving him an average of 0.661. Playoff games under Russell were 46, his team won 28 which gives a percentage of 0.609. Russells teams did not have the playing roster of the early 60s' sides.

    He did much more with a lot less, but he had himself. I'm using the Pre-Russell era for Red's stats to indicate that without Russell his teams had good regular seasons, but did nothing in the post season. No championships and a cruel post season winning percentage. Russell made Red's career as a coach.

    Percentages again;
     
    Red Pre-Russell - Regular Season 0.571 Post Season 0.370
    Russell - Regular Season 0.661 Post Season 0.609.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Qdaddy. Show Qdaddy's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    In Response to Was Red the best coach ever?:
    [QUOTE]Was Red Auerbach the greatest NBA coach of all time? It's indisputable that he's one of the best. But the very best? I'm not too sure. Before anyone jumps down my throat I'll explain why. While a revolutionary coach with his ideas, the 9 titles he won as a coach, did not happen until Russell arrived at the Celtics. It didn't take two or three years to work Russell into the team, they started to win titles immediately. Wherever Russell went he won, I don't believe in coincidence. Which to me signifies that it was Russell, not Red who was the reason for the success. This is also illustrated in the 1958 season where Russell was injured. Does this Celtics team that won the 1957 title win without Russell in 1958? You think they'd be strong enough to. But no, they don't. Why? They have a great coach, and a superb roster of future hall of famers and some very smart basketball guys. But they don't win. No Russell, no title. At least not with that side. Russell returns for the next season, fit and the Celtics start their run of championships. Other players perform their heroics to win titles, thinking here about stolen balls, and last minute shots. But Russell is still the reason they are in that position to win the championship. You take him out and would Havliceck have been in that position to have stolen the ball, would Cousey have been dribbling out the shot clock? I don't think so. I really don't think so.   I think Red while being an ingredient into the teams success, wasn't the main reason they were winning. That's just the view of someone looking at this as history. Russell won everywhere, the guy was the ultimate winner. If he goes to St Louis they'd have been winning multiple titles.   My main point about the coaching is that Russell, as a rookie coach, takes a Celtic team that is nowhere near as strong as the sides from the early 60's. Took the team to two titles. As a rookie player/coach. Does this mean that Lenny Wilkins could have been bought in to coach a Russell led team and win two titles? More than likely, perhaps he'd need to have the players respect, which Russell had. Both Red and Russell had the respect of their teams. But it's just that Russell, not ever coaching before. Yet can win two titles as a rookie coach. Makes me think that almost any coach with decent man management skills could well have led that Celtics side to success, providing Russell remains healthy. People blame coaches when a team loses, but it's the players who are out there scoring the points. Phil Jackson may well have won eight titles in a row if Jordan did not retire from basketball for the 93/94 season. He returned in 94/95 but he didn't have that full season under his belt. Do we believe that the Houston Rockets would have been a match for a Jordan led Bulls side? More than likely they'd lose like the other teams that played The Bulls in the Finals. Jacksons legacy was forged in Chicago, thanks to Jordan. Although unlike Red, Jackson didn't start to win championships immediately with Jordan. Took a couple of years until they could beat Detroit, some would even suggest that rule changes enabled this. Jackson is another good to great coach. But coaching greatness is harder to define than winning championships. Jerry Sloan is a great coach who has not won a title. Where would he rate in the all time lists of great NBA coaches, you could say that he's a better coach than some who have won titles.   Red was a great administrator, a great eye for basketball talent, he broke racial barriers and he was a great coach. But was Red the best? Would he have won any titles as a coach without Bill Russell? Could he have coached a champion team, without the champion? Which is rare but it does happen. I really don't know. In my mind, Russell is the key to it all when it comes to Reds NBA titles as a coach.
    Posted by RUWorthy[/QUOTE]

    So we're going to start this HEATED argument again?! Okay, I'm in.

    Obviously you're not going to get 99.9% of the C's fans to say ANYONE other than Red Auerbach is the greatest. And they have many valid points. I'll let THEM argue in favor of Red.

    Naturally, I'm one of the many Lakers fans who will say it's Phil Jackson, #1, cause he's won the most rings (and counting!), and also, because he's won with players with MEGA-Ego's and was able to mesh them into dynamic teams. Add the fact that there are nearly 4 times as many teams in the league and that makes his accomplishment that much more incredible.

    Consider that Doug Collins had the same Bulls team that Phil inherited and Del Harris had about the same Lakers team that Phil inherited...and neither won a championship. That was Phil working his Zen magic!!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RUWorthy. Show RUWorthy's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    I missed the last argument. I could argue that K.C. Jones and Heinsohn were better than Red in the coaching area. Nothing to dispute Red's basketball mind or this front office ability.

    Jackson is very good. He really could have ended up with 8 titles in Chicago during the Jordan era, 6 was great, but 8 would have been something else. You're right that Jackson did inherit a team in Chicago that wasn't a championship calibre side.

    The time he really lost the ego battle was in 2004. But that was just a bad season in general.



     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mem17. Show mem17's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    Red retired before I started watching Basketball and I was only 5 when he retired in 66. His record speaks for itself though. You can't argue with success.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mem17. Show mem17's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    In Response to Re: Was Red the best coach ever?:
    [QUOTE]Red retired before I started watching Basketball and I was only 5 when he retired in 66. His record speaks for itself though. You can't argue with success. Go to Slippery Sam's new site or not so new as he started it a few years back. Ask him and he will tell all about the Red era.
    Posted by mem17[/QUOTE]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    Some interesting points.

    Its a decent argument about Red and his place in history. Did Russell make Red a great coach or visa versa?  IMO, without Russell, theres no cha,pionship run, obviously. But Red got Russell here, designed the offense/defense and lets say allowed the team to flourish without messin it up.

    Ditto to John Wooden, the coach most put right up there with the greatest. Without Alcindor and Walton, wheres his place in history. Wheres Jackson without Jordan & Shaq?

    Figuring out the greatest coaches is harder than figuring out greatest players.

    Look at Jerry Sloan. He was a defensive monster as a player, really brought taking charges into a specialty. Tough as nails too. His resume in Utah is spectacular.. even without the Stockton/Malone years his teams are always very competitive and play a great style of ball.

    Great coachs arent measured by titles imo. Rather, how much they get from the talent they have. Hard thing to measure...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    I must say, very good posts by all.....Worthy makes a great point about Red's pre-Russ playoff record....of course Russ was the difference....just like Jordan and Shaq were the difference makers. What set Red apart was how fiercely loyal his players were to him.....he did not quit (retire) and take personal shots as his superstar player in a book as the Zen Master did. Red created fast break basketball. He was coach, GM, scout....he totally controlled Boston's basketball world.....and if he hadn't retired he would've won the 4 titles the Celts won from '68-'76....remember, he retired at a relatively early age....Red also created the "victory cigar"....a sight that enraged opponents and fans alike...arrogant?  ....absolutely....that was Red creating his mystique...the Zen Master does it his way...taking pot shots at opponents, their coaches, the refs...deliberately done to create an edge....arrogant?  ....absolutely....seems Phil followed Red's lead.....
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ReddsGhost. Show ReddsGhost's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    Of course he was. Red being an A+ coach, there aren't anymore A coaches as Riley is a B+ and Phil a B.
    Good try to watering down his accomplishments though and boost whatever coach you deem as A+ worthy.
    Ask ANY coach in NBA history- would you be able to STAY on one team for 17 years, be the scout, be the draft expert, be the coach with only 1 or 2 assist. coaches,  and win 9 titles as coach. That's a 53% stat at winning the NBA TITLE not just makiing the playoffs. I believe most coaches (unless you're a Zen master, LOL) would concede the title of Greatest NBA Coach evah!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxRock1. Show SoxRock1's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    Tough to compare different eras, but when you do compare the stats, I must agree with RUWorthy...

    Jackson
      Reg Seas w/l%   .705       playoff w/l% .697      title%  .579

    Auerbach
      Reg Seas w/l%   .659       playoff w/l% .603      title%  .529

    Coaching in general, its hard to compete with the great John Wooden

    .804 winning % with 4 undefeated seasons and (3) 1 loss seasons
    10 national champions in his 29 seasons of coaching... and was not done in an 8 team league as most of Red's were!  When Jackson won his first, the league was a 28 team league... still a far cry from the NCAAs. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Qdaddy. Show Qdaddy's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    In Response to Re: Was Red the best coach ever?:
    [QUOTE]Some interesting points. Its a decent argument about Red and his place in history. Did Russell make Red a great coach or visa versa?  IMO, without Russell, theres no cha,pionship run, obviously. But Red got Russell here, designed the offense/defense and lets say allowed the team to flourish without messin it up. Ditto to John Wooden, the coach most put right up there with the greatest. Without Alcindor and Walton, wheres his place in history. Wheres Jackson without Jordan & Shaq? Figuring out the greatest coaches is harder than figuring out greatest players. Look at Jerry Sloan. He was a defensive monster as a player, really brought taking charges into a specialty. Tough as nails too. His resume in Utah is spectacular.. even without the Stockton/Malone years his teams are always very competitive and play a great style of ball. Great coachs arent measured by titles imo. Rather, how much they get from the talent they have. Hard thing to measure...
    Posted by Karllost[/QUOTE]

    Actually, Alcindor and Walton only played on 5 of John Wooden's 10 national championship teams. His first two and his last one were without the two big men and two more between the time Alcindor graduated and Walton arrived on campus.

    So, in a discussion of greatest all time coaches, most people can see that John Wooden's system was the reason he won all those titles. Alcindor and Walton certainly were key during those years, but Coach Wooden didn't need a big man to still dominate the opposition.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Qdaddy. Show Qdaddy's posts

    Re: Was Red the best coach ever?

    In Response to Re: Was Red the best coach ever?:
    [QUOTE]Tough to compare different eras, but when you do compare the stats, I must agree with RUWorthy... Jackson   Reg Seas w/l%   .705       playoff w/l% .697      title%  .579 Auerbach   Reg Seas w/l%   .659       playoff w/l% .603      title%  .529 Coaching in general, its hard to compete with the great John Wooden .804 winning % with 4 undefeated seasons and (3) 1 loss seasons 10 national champions in his 29 seasons of coaching... and was not done in an 8 team league as most of Red's were!  When Jackson won his first, the league was a 28 team league... still a far cry from the NCAAs. 
    Posted by SoxRock1[/QUOTE]

    The stats don't lie...pretty convincing argument for Phil in the NBA. Wooden...clearly the best in the college game.

    But like I said near the start of this thread, C's fans will ALWAYS consider Red the greatest. I can't argue cause they're from different eras. Laker fans and LA area fans will argue in favor of Phil and of course our beloved Coach Wooden.

    If there was a "Coach's Mt. Rushmore", all 3 of these gentlemen would be on it without a doubt. And I would say that Pat Summit would be there alongside them. That would be an impressive 4 some.
     

Share