We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    OneOnOne.....where I think its unreasonable is to blame Ray for the teams woes and yes, that's what most of the thread is saying (along with JON).   The Celtics woes have come from MULTIPLE problems from their consistently having someone injured to having no center to how inconsistently the stars (especially Ray, Paul, and Rondo) have played.  So, to single it out on Ray is not to recognize the other factors:

    Paul has played well at times and looked like a retiree at times

    Rondo has clearly been inconsistenty from a triple double 3 times to non-existent at others.....not to mention his suspension and injuries.

    Ray has himself been inconsistent and while his defense stinks, his turnovers are less than 2 per game and his rebounding is under appreciated.  Not as good as Pietrus but not horrible, either.

    Add to that injuries and poor play of JON and injuries to Wilcox multiple times and we see a very inconsistent team.  Then, we say "we play better without Ray".  Actually, we are more athletic, but I think more of it is due to JON, Wilcox, Pierce up and down, and Rondo up and down.  Ray is but one of 5 or 6 factors.

    That's why I think the thread was not "reasonable" as it put all the blame on 2 players.   
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]Here is another post from another site I thought interesting. It dawned on me last night watching the game... We set the season high in team assists last night. With ray out you did NOT see rondo top of the key waiting for ray to run off multiple screens to get the ball with 8 seconds left on the shot clock. Ball moved freely... I'm not overreacting when I say start pietrus..
    Posted by OneOnOne[/QUOTE]


    True, but I see that play run about 5 or 6 times a game on average, sometimes more recently and sometimes infrequently in some games.  Its not the dominant issue - I think Paul's holding of the ball and not moving it is a bigger issue.  Even more than that, I see our rebounding as the biggest factor and that's not fix by Ray nor Pietrus.  MP had 5 rebounds last night and we won.  Ray had 6 rebounds against Indiana, Phoenix, Lakers, and Detroit and we lost ALL 6 GAMES!!  Why?   Because the bigs were injured or not rebounding well and Paul had bad offensive games.   

    There are just so many factors that I cannot take the easy way out and say its down to one or two factors.  That's my issue.  I blame Ray for his faults, but the Pierce offensive energy, bigs rebounding, JON everything, and Rondo inconsistency are just as big of a factor in how we play.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SFBostonFan. Show SFBostonFan's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    No question our main need is a Center/Banger who is a strong rebounder and one who can also put in rebounds. Don't know how we can get one w/o trading Rondo. I don't think Ray Allen and others(JO please go) will do it. I live in SF and go to GS games. I'd love to have Monta Ellis, tattoes and all, heck we had Delonte West full of tattoes too.  But Ray Allen would really shine with the Clippers as Paul & Griffin demanding coverage would free Ray up and he can still be deadly not double teamed. Can we get DeAndre Jordan, young but wouldn't give us more points than Perkins did, I believe. I'd like too to get Mo Williams from Clippers. But if we got Jordan, we could then concentrate on getting a higher scoring Center in the draft. With Monta Ellis and Mo Williams and keeping Bradley too we would not need worry about getting a Guard next year.

    Ok, if we strike out on all of the above, then I guess we wait & try get D. Howard and Deron Williams.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    Kaman looks better and better.  A guy who can make free throws in crunch time.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    i still think that both allen and o'neil can make contributions this year (if neither is traded), but i do like the first unit much better with garnett at center and bass and peitrus in the lineup.

    ray can still shoot like crazy, but i think would become much more effective with the second unit where the opponent's best defending guard may not be on the floor.

    certainly, pietrus is a much better defender and reounder than ray so he needs to be on the floor when the other team's best guard is out there.

    o'neil is quite limited at this point on offense, but has been playing decent first team defense (when not injured).  he will make more of a contribution on offense with the second unit and possibly even more of defensive contribution (clog up the lane) against the other team's second group as well as second groups tend to not have as many good outside shooters and thus drive to the basket more often.

    o'neil will not be back next year, but if ray does return i think that he should be the sixth or seventh man.  he will still be able to shoot and provide the second unit with some offense and he will always be in good enough shape to start when necessary.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]I think it's pretty obvious at this point.
    Posted by Kirk6[/QUOTE]

    yeah if only the Celtics had Avery Bradley playing point guard and Pietrus playing the 2.  Wow that tandem would frighten every team in the NBA.

    Dude...pull it together.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]Kaman looks better and better.  A guy who can make free throws in crunch time.
    Posted by concord27[/QUOTE]

    Only with an extension!!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Elven 32. Show Elven 32's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen : yeah if only the Celtics had Avery Bradley playing point guard and Pietrus playing the 2.  Wow that tandem would frighten every team in the NBA. Dude...pull it together.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE]

    Laughing
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ortiz123. Show Ortiz123's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]Somebody's gonna have to go if DA makes a trade. That much is obvious. As I see it, we have five players that could be considered assets: RA, RR, PP, KG, and Bass. RA's a pure clutch shooter,  and he's  delivered for the Celtics more times than I can recall.  His work ethic is light years past other players. But once you get past his shooting? I think if someone goes, it'll be RA. But I said that a few years back, as I recall. Funny how there haven't been any NBA trades yet. I  think when the first one or two happen,  the  dam  will break and then we'll really see what happens
    Posted by breaktime[/QUOTE]

    Exactly right, its called human nature and law of demand and supply.
    As soon as someone blinks, there is less supply, therefore, others will feel necessary to follow the herd. Human nature plays into the equation as people will start to feel the pressure to give some in the negotiating process. Let the horse trading begin!!!
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gasthoerer. Show Gasthoerer's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]OneOnOne.....where I think its unreasonable is to blame Ray for the teams woes and yes, that's what most of the thread is saying ... Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    This 2 post of you were the best and well rounded posts I've read here for weeks (even I don't 100 % share your opinion about Rays defense).
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from elDunker2. Show elDunker2's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    JON is just a body taking up space on the floor. RA should not be playing nearly as many minutes as Doc has played him. He should be utilized as a situational offensive player. He still has high value to any team, including the Celtics, if used right.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen : This 2 post of you were the best and well rounded posts I've read here for weeks (even I don't 100 % share your opinion about Rays defense).
    Posted by Gasthoerer[/QUOTE]

    Thanks.  I try to be objective.

    Great win today.  They had me worried when they let the knicks come all the way back but this team pulled together and played well.   I hope JON doesn't come back to a starting role.   I do think we are better when JON is not starting.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Red-16Russ-11. Show Red-16Russ-11's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen : Thanks.  I try to be objective. Great win today.  They had me worried when they let the knicks come all the way back but this team pulled together and played well.   I hope JON doesn't come back to a starting role.   I do think we are better when JON is not starting.
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    I think he is done.  We have seen the last of him in BOS anyway, as I'm sure any trade Danny makes will have his contract attached.......have the surgery, Jermaine, who the heck cares???
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    Pierce, Rondo and Garnett are too valuable to this team for any of them to realistically be traded at the deadline for non-franchise guys. That leaves Ray Allen and the expiring contract of Jermaine O'Neal as the most tradeable assets. They make nearly $17 million between them, which could bring in an expensive player on a long-term contract. The Celtics could also look at trading O'Neal alone for someone on a longer-term contract. I don't think we'll see any blockbusters.

    How about Jermaine O'Neal, Keyon Dooling, Marquis Daniels, Sasha Pavlovic and a 1st round draft pick to New Orleans for Emeka Okafor? Okafor has two more years under contract after this one, while all the inherited contracts for New Orleans would come off the books at the end of this year. Basically, the Hornets would be ridding themselves of Okafor's contract and picking up a first round draft pick in a deep draft, while the Celtics would add a useful big averaging 9.9 PPG/7.9 RPG in 28.9 minutes per game.

    If the Celtics add Moore and Stiemsa, they could make the same deal for Chris Kaman instead. Even though that would be a lot of players going New Orleans' way, the Hornets would likely waive all four of O'Neal, Dooling, Daniels, and Pavlovic.
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen : Chris Kaman is the better option.
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]
    Ainge should go out and get Kaman and forget about everything else until we get him.  I really am starting to believe that with KG healthy and Rondo with his head on straight we could make a real run this year.   Kaman with open shots and getting rebounds will allow KG to be even better.  We should move on it tonight.
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kobedaman. Show kobedaman's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen : I think with Kaman we will improve in the rebounding department because of his length and bulk.
    Posted by Fiercest34[/QUOTE]

    Gee, I can't stand the suspense.  Who are the C's trading to get Kaman?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Elven 32. Show Elven 32's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen : Gee, I can't stand the suspense.  Who are the C's trading to get Kaman?
    Posted by kobedaman[/QUOTE]

    Jerlame. Straight up!

    Laughing
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from davidap. Show davidap's posts

    Re: We are a much better team without JO and Ray Allen

    Jerlame. Straight up!

    Read my previous post. To make the salaries match, the Celtics would need to trade Jermaine O'Neal, Keyon Dooling, Marquis Daniels, Sasha Pavlovic, Greg Stiemsma, and E'twaun Moore to the Hornets. None of those players will mean much of anything to the Hornets, except maybe Moore. The Celtics would have to add a first round pick, probably the lower of their two first rounders. I think that would be a reasonable deal for both teams.

    The Celtics would have to sign 2-5 minimum wagers to round out the roster. Some available free agents include Gilbert Arenas, Earl Boykins, Antonio Daniels, Mike James (PG); James Posey, Renaldo Balkman, Jamario Moon, Julian Wright, Joey Graham (SF); Kyrylo Fesenko, Hmady Nidaye (C); Allen Iverson, Eddie House (SG); Rasheed Wallace, Leon Powe, Malik Allen, Derrick Caracter, Etan Thomas (PF).

    From that group, I'd bring back three beloved members of the '08 squad (Posey, Powe, and House), Fesenko, and Boykins.

    Post-Deal Roster:

    1. C Chris Kaman
    2. PF Kevin Garnett
    3. SF Paul Pierce
    4. PG Rajon Rondo
    5. SG Ray Allen

    6. C Chris Wilcox
    7. PF Brandon Bass
    8. SF James Posey
    9. PG Avery Bradley
    10. SG Mickael Pietrus

    11. C Kyrylo Fesenko
    12. PG/SG Eddie House

    13. PF JaJuan Johnson
    14. PF Leon Powe
    15. PG Earl Boykins


     
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