WHat if we did blow up the big four?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from deanocelt. Show deanocelt's posts

    WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    One of the questions on the Boston Globes poll was: Should the C's blow up the big four? THe fan voted no. I do not think I want to do this but what could we get for any of the big four? Clearly Rondo would be coveted? What about the others? Are their contracts to big? If not, what could they bring?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JREwing. Show JREwing's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

     Probably couldn't get a year's supply of Geritol or Icy Hot
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from adam4522. Show adam4522's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    They could get someone's contract they wanted to dump for sure.  Could they get a player they wanted in addition to the contract is the question.  RA and KG have huge expiring contracts.  They would be coveted.  Whether the C's would want what the other team wanted to dump would be the question.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from puddinpuddin. Show puddinpuddin's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]One of the questions on the Boston Globes poll was: Should the C's blow up the big four? THe fan voted no. I do not think I want to do this but what could we get for any of the big four? Clearly Rondo would be coveted? What about the others? Are their contracts to big? If not, what could they bring?
    Posted by deanocelt[/QUOTE]

    Its not at all clear that Rondo would be coveted.

    As a BUPG maybe.

    Which teams have enough shooters to retool/dedicate their entire offensive schemes to try to disguise a non-shooting  PG?

    Losing a step likely puts/keeps Rondo on the bench.

    Pud
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to WHat if we did blow up the big four? : Its not at all clear that Rondo would be coveted. As a BUPG maybe. Which teams have enough shooters to retool/dedicate their entire offensive schemes to try to disguise a non-shooting  PG? Losing a step likely puts/keeps Rondo on the bench. Pud
    Posted by puddinpuddin[/QUOTE]

    Coveted?  locked up for 3 more years at what could amount to 20% of the new cap?  not sure coveted is the word I would use.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PierceIsTheTruth. Show PierceIsTheTruth's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    rondo fits with this big 3. would rondo fit with another group that cant score as well as these guys? maybe not.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]rondo fits with this big 3. would rondo fit with another group that cant score as well as these guys? maybe not.
    Posted by PierceIsTheTruth[/QUOTE]

    Two thirds of the league score more points than they did - score as well as these guys - um not so much.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Shamrocks4ever. Show Shamrocks4ever's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Although a few of the regular posters on this site view Rondo as only a backup-quality PG, he's generally regard as at least one of the 10 best point guards in the league, if not in the top 5.  So... most GMs would be willing to give up some pretty good value for him, especially in light of his youth.  He's probably the easiest of the Big 4 to give up in terms of how attached the fans and franchise are to him, too. 

    I don't see Paul or RA going anywhere... Paul has the "Celtic for life" label, and Ray is kind of a special case in part because of his son's health and the fact that Boston can provide better treatment for him than most other NBA cities.  KG is probably more tradeable than PP or RA, but not by much - there's a huge attachment to him for the identity he's brought to the team.

    I would only trade 1 or 2 of the Big 4, and only then if I was able to get at least one young all-star player who could give me roughly equal production.  In other posts, I've mentioned a scenario that works money-wise and could bring in Dwight Howard, but it would mean giving up both RR and KG (and JO) - and taking Gilbert Arenas off Orlando's hands.  I've also seen trade ideas with the Hornets to bring in Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor, with the Warriors to bring in David Lee and others, etc.  Those might also be decent ideas.

    Otherwise, just stand pat, try to add one or two decent free agents - and hope to get very lucky next year in terms of injuries, etc.  To win #18 with the current, aging core of this team is possible, but will require all the right breaks.  Almost every team that wins a championship does it with some element of luck - next year's Celtics would need more than an average amount of it to come home with the trophy.  So - let's hope the right moves (or non-moves) get made and hang on for the ride.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]Although a few of the regular posters on this site view Rondo as only a backup-quality PG, he's generally regard as at least one of the 10 best point guards in the league, if not in the top 5.  So... most GMs would be willing to give up some pretty good value for him, especially in light of his youth.  He's probably the easiest of the Big 4 to give up in terms of how attached the fans and franchise are to him, too.  I don't see Paul or RA going anywhere... Paul has the "Celtic for life" label, and Ray is kind of a special case in part because of his son's health and the fact that Boston can provide better treatment for him than most other NBA cities.  KG is probably more tradeable than PP or RA, but not by much - there's a huge attachment to him for the identity he's brought to the team. I would only trade 1 or 2 of the Big 4, and only then if I was able to get at least one young all-star player who could give me roughly equal production.  In other posts, I've mentioned a scenario that works money-wise and could bring in Dwight Howard, but it would mean giving up both RR and KG (and JO) - and taking Gilbert Arenas off Orlando's hands.  I've also seen trade ideas with the Hornets to bring in Chris Paul and Emeka Okafor, with the Warriors to bring in David Lee and others, etc.  Those might also be decent ideas. Otherwise, just stand pat, try to add one or two decent free agents - and hope to get very lucky next year in terms of injuries, etc.  To win #18 with the current, aging core of this team is possible, but will require all the right breaks.  Almost every team that wins a championship does it with some element of luck - next year's Celtics would need more than an average amount of it to come home with the trophy.  So - let's hope the right moves (or non-moves) get made and hang on for the ride.
    Posted by Shamrocks4ever[/QUOTE]

    Here is the order of who would be most likely to go:

    KG - expiring contract that would allow a team to wipe 21 million off their books

    RA - expiring contract that would allow a team to wipe 10 million off their books

    PP - 3 more years at less money than in the past, still has star power and could put a team over the top (assuming they have the chips to trade and assume trading those chips would not wipe out the team's chances of wining)

    RR - 3 more years at a lot of money for someone who has not proven anything without 3 hall of famers surrounding him and hiding his very obvious deficiencies  
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Dud, I think Rondo and Ray have the most value.  I think Rondo has alot of value because his contract is not bad for an elite PG (alleged elite PG) although I'd have to differ with that.  Rondo's stock is high right now (although I think it's about to drop) so that makes him attractive.

    As for Ray, he is the only one of the Big 4 who, next season, will still "athletically" and "physically" be able to do what he's most dangerous doing, shooting from the perimeter.  And with an expiring $10 mil cap hit, that is extremely attractive.

    I just don't think KG can bring it every night any longer and I am not sure a team will let go of two players to match KG's cap number.  Honestly, I believe KG's value is highest as a Celtic because if this is his last season, we get that cap relief.

    I think it's obvious the Big 4 cannot carry this team night in and night out for an entire season and the playoffs.  I think it's also obvious that the Celtics don't really have any trade chips that will bring in TWO very good players to add to Jeff Green and Delonte to put around these guys.  That cannot and will not happen without giving up one of the Big 4.

    The alternative is to do nothing, not be a real challenge for a championship, say goodbye to Ray and KG, have cap space but nobody to replace them with, and be a middle-of-the-pack team for the forseeable future.  Time to drop a small bomb - blow it up some.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]Dud, I think Rondo and Ray have the most value.  I think Rondo has alot of value because his contract is not bad for an elite PG (alleged elite PG) although I'd have to differ with that.  Rondo's stock is high right now (although I think it's about to drop) so that makes him attractive. As for Ray, he is the only one of the Big 4 who, next season, will still "athletically" and "physically" be able to do what he's most dangerous doing, shooting from the perimeter.  And with an expiring $10 mil cap hit, that is extremely attractive. I just don't think KG can bring it every night any longer and I am not sure a team will let go of two players to match KG's cap number.  Honestly, I believe KG's value is highest as a Celtic because if this is his last season, we get that cap relief. I think it's obvious the Big 4 cannot carry this team night in and night out for an entire season and the playoffs.  I think it's also obvious that the Celtics don't really have any trade chips that will bring in TWO very good players to add to Jeff Green and Delonte to put around these guys.  That cannot and will not happen without giving up one of the Big 4. The alternative is to do nothing, not be a real challenge for a championship, say goodbye to Ray and KG, have cap space but nobody to replace them with, and be a middle-of-the-pack team for the forseeable future.  Time to drop a small bomb - blow it up some.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]

    There is a reason Rondo is not paid like an elite point guard.......  that said, there is no relevance of what he makes compared to other point guards, the relevance how much a team wants to commit to a point guard with very obvious limitations within the new CBA.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]Dud, I think Rondo and Ray have the most value.  I think Rondo has alot of value because his contract is not bad for an elite PG (alleged elite PG) although I'd have to differ with that.  Rondo's stock is high right now (although I think it's about to drop) so that makes him attractive. As for Ray, he is the only one of the Big 4 who, next season, will still "athletically" and "physically" be able to do what he's most dangerous doing, shooting from the perimeter.  And with an expiring $10 mil cap hit, that is extremely attractive. I just don't think KG can bring it every night any longer and I am not sure a team will let go of two players to match KG's cap number.  Honestly, I believe KG's value is highest as a Celtic because if this is his last season, we get that cap relief. I think it's obvious the Big 4 cannot carry this team night in and night out for an entire season and the playoffs.  I think it's also obvious that the Celtics don't really have any trade chips that will bring in TWO very good players to add to Jeff Green and Delonte to put around these guys.  That cannot and will not happen without giving up one of the Big 4. The alternative is to do nothing, not be a real challenge for a championship, say goodbye to Ray and KG, have cap space but nobody to replace them with, and be a middle-of-the-pack team for the forseeable future.  Time to drop a small bomb - blow it up some.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]

    Clicked ADD YOUR REPLY by mistake...... re. Rondo - if you are a team that does not happen to have 3 hall of famers hanging around on your roster - do you want to commit 12 million dollars per year to a point guard when you have a hard cap of $60million?  I don't think so.

    Danny's legacy will be formed by the compilation of the BIG 3 and then how that BIG 3 is dissolved - one hailed, one potentially a disaster - who knows?

    I have said that I think Danny is negligent in his duties if he attempts to trade the BIG for what the posters will think are great new stars, well at least until they get here and we all find out that Danny pulled a Joe Dumars (disbanding his 4 all-stars and sliding Ben Gordon and Charlie V in and then s ucking anyway).

    My question is really very simple - why would teams be giving up "stars" or "potential stars" in order to add an expiring contract or a player on his last legs? 

    I can see wanting to acquire expiring contracts, so that the team can go in to free agency with some cap space but aren't those the same teams that just gave up young stars to get the expiring contract? 

    I don't see any good combination of transactions that allows the Cs some sort of continuance of excellence - there is no Steve Young waiting in the wings for when Montana goes........  I think we will see the cycle take hold and they will be in the lottery sooner than most will like....
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LakerFan67. Show LakerFan67's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Some owners apply the strategy of gutting their team of vet salaries (Oklahoma, Memphis, & Washington) and hoping to build from the draft. It has worked for the Thunder and the Grizz. The Wizards are still struggling. Miami, Boston & L.A. have done it via trades and free agency.

    There is no uniform way of succeeding. It also depends on the depth of the owner's pocket book. The Clippers have probably the worst owner in the league. He's only about making money and ridding himself of players once they demand too high of salaries. The idiot just gave away the No. 1 to Cleveland. I have no doubt that Blake Griffin will bolt once he's a free agent.

    Boston can still compete but they need a decent center. Trading Perk was a huge mistake. I know that I'm no Boston fan, but when that trade went down many opposing teams were relieved.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    LakerFan67,

    I do agree with you about Boston needing a center.  Not sure who they will sign this year, but they definitely need a bettter center going forward. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MrJohnnyMost. Show MrJohnnyMost's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    The current state of "the big three" is hurting Rondo, not enhancing his game. Put him with some guys who could scoot and you'd see magic. He'd make Chris Paul look like Sammy Davis waking up with a hangover.

    Instead he's got to pound the ball, killing ants, while these geezers try and get free. It's a mismatch of talents and he's tried hard to make it work. He's built to run, not slug it out in the halfcourt.

    Hey, we're all basketball nuts or else we wouldn't still be talking about all this. Obviously, I love the Celtics. I'd just like to see them run again. But it looks like more 80 pt. games next year.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]The current state of "the big three" is hurting Rondo, not enhancing his game. Put him with some guys who could scoot and you'd see magic. He'd make Chris Paul look like Sammy Davis waking up with a hangover. Instead he's got to pound the ball, killing ants, while these geezers try and get free. It's a mismatch of talents and he's tried hard to make it work. He's built to run, not slug it out in the halfcourt. Hey, we're all basketball nuts or else we wouldn't still be talking about all this. Obviously, I love the Celtics. I'd just like to see them run again. But it looks like more 80 pt. games next year.
    Posted by MrJohnnyMost[/QUOTE]

    85% of the game is the half court sets - especially in the playoffs.

    The teams that score the most fast break points average about 15 ppg on the break.

    Rondo may be built to run but the league isn't and that is why he is not even guarded in the half court.

    Give him some guys that can run and he would make Chris Paul look bad?  Stop the nonsense.

    Nobody in the league plays with as much talent as Rondo - Rondo does not make them all-stars or hall of famers - they already were.

    Chris Paul makes his teammates better and was in the playoffs without David West and gave the Lakers a little scare.

    Flip flop Rondo for Paul and the Cs win a lot more games and score a lot more points.

    NO would have a stagnant offense driven by someone pounding the ball waiting for someone to get open while there is nobody within 15 feet of him.  DUH.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Rondo is the only one tradeable in my book.

    The only way Isee any of the Big 3 moving is if at the All Star break we are out the picture and they are dealt to get cap relief. I don't think Ainge gives up on them before training camp.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from wfdog. Show wfdog's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four? : 85% of the game is the half court sets - especially in the playoffs. The teams that score the most fast break points average about 15 ppg on the break. Rondo may be built to run but the league isn't and that is why he is not even guarded in the half court. Give him some guys that can run and he would make Chris Paul look bad?  Stop the nonsense. Nobody in the league plays with as much talent as Rondo - Rondo does not make them all-stars or hall of famers - they already were. Chris Paul makes his teammates better and was in the playoffs without David West and gave the Lakers a little scare. Flip flop Rondo for Paul and the Cs win a lot more games and score a lot more points. NO would have a stagnant offense driven by someone pounding the ball waiting for someone to get open while there is nobody within 15 feet of him.  DUH.
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

    Have to agree. CP3 is much better. At 25 Rondo can't even make it uninjured through a whole season playing in a slowdown offense, let alone if he played in a run and gun offense. I wish Rondo didn't have to focus on his elbow this offseason because I think he needs a lot more work on his mind and body strength.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four? : Here is the order of who would be most likely to go: KG - expiring contract that would allow a team to wipe 21 million off their books RA - expiring contract that would allow a team to wipe 10 million off their books PP - 3 more years at less money than in the past, still has star power and could put a team over the top (assuming they have the chips to trade and assume trading those chips would not wipe out the team's chances of wining) RR - 3 more years at a lot of money for someone who has not proven anything without 3 hall of famers surrounding him and hiding his very obvious deficiencies  
    Posted by TheDUDDER[/QUOTE]

    I won't argue Rondo's faults - those are clear cut

    But Rondo is a bargain for what he's done, which is put up more playoff triple doubles than anyone not named LeBron or Kidd while showing court awareness and passing deftness that only Nash and Kidd can match

    At a salary that's appropriately 30% lower than Chris Paul or Deron Williams

    I think some team might look at how Rondo's salary compares to Paul and Williams and think that Rondo gives them more than 70% of what Paul and Williams do for the price

    Weaknesses?  Yes.  bad contract?  That's pushing it.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Dudder, I think there are teams that would commit that kind of money (Rondo's contract) that DON'T have 3 HOF'ers.  Rondo would just kill on the Knicks with their style of play (or a similar style).  With so much attention paid to Amare and Melo, Rondo would thrive in that system.  Rondo would be equally effective if he played with Portland, for instance.  So, I'd say that Rondo's contract would be perfect for a team that runs the kind of system like the Knicks.  Rondo has struggled with the decline in the skills of the Big 3.  The Celtics system just does not suit Rondo's skillset best.  Ray, PP and KG just are not as proficient as scorers any longer.  They just can't do it night in and night out and that makes it harder for Rondo to do what he does best.

    Secondly, I think Danny would be negligent in his duties if he DID NOT look to move one of them.  For the sake of the future of the Celtics, Danny cannot let each of the Big 3 simply retire off into the sunset.  It is Danny's job to go after great new stars who can develop into great old stars or consistent, solid veteran players (maybe star-quality).  Great new stars have the "possiblity" of developing into stars more than old, over-the-hill stars who's next step is retirement.

    Danny would be cementing the Celtic's future into mediocrity if he failed to move either Ray or KG and possibly even Rondo.  Pierce is out the question because he is a true Celtic and will retire as one.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]Dudder, I think there are teams that would commit that kind of money (Rondo's contract) that DON'T have 3 HOF'ers.  Rondo would just kill on the Knicks with their style of play (or a similar style).  With so much attention paid to Amare and Melo, Rondo would thrive in that system.  Rondo would be equally effective if he played with Portland, for instance.  So, I'd say that Rondo's contract would be perfect for a team that runs the kind of system like the Knicks.  Rondo has struggled with the decline in the skills of the Big 3.  The Celtics system just does not suit Rondo's skillset best.  Ray, PP and KG just are not as proficient as scorers any longer.  They just can't do it night in and night out and that makes it harder for Rondo to do what he does best. Secondly, I think Danny would be negligent in his duties if he DID NOT look to move one of them.  For the sake of the future of the Celtics, Danny cannot let each of the Big 3 simply retire off into the sunset.  It is Danny's job to go after great new stars who can develop into great old stars or consistent, solid veteran players (maybe star-quality).  Great new stars have the "possiblity" of developing into stars more than old, over-the-hill stars who's next step is retirement. Danny would be cementing the Celtic's future into mediocrity if he failed to move either Ray or KG and possibly even Rondo.  Pierce is out the question because he is a true Celtic and will retire as one.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]

    I disagree completely, by trading players he ensures mediocrity.  By letting the BIG 3 dissolve, he can start actually getting talent from the draft instead of getting nothing from the draft and everybody cross your fingers that Danny makes the right moves......
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Petey62. Show Petey62's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    The Celtics would be worse if they replaced Ray and KG after next season with draft picks as opposed to getting younger, quality players back in return via the trade.

    We are not going to be in a position to draft quality players from our annual draft position anyway so how can we re-build through the draft?  Honestly, I believe you cross your fingers more from the draft than you do by picking up players who have some NBA experience from which to evaluate.  The draft is more of a "crap-shoot" than picking up a talented, young player via trade.

    Also what in Danny's draft past would make you put more faith in his ability to draft quality players than you would in his ability to trade for them?  Danny has had a questionable track record with draft choices so I, for one, would not be totally comfortable putting the future of the Celtics in Danny's draft picks.  Talk about "crossing your fingers".

    The Celtics can get a player who is at a minimum 75/80% of Ray or KG's talent level via the trade (and further develop them) as opposed to "hoping" to draft a player who might not touch the court for 2 or 3 years and never know what you might get.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from LakerFan67. Show LakerFan67's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Based on the comments Ainge made recently, he believes the current Celtics with the 3 aging HOFs have another title left in them. That means that Danny will try to swing a trade on the margins but not the core group which includes Rondo.

    Marc Gasol is a free agent. He would be the best pickup the Celtics could make and would quickly make them legitimate again.

    Rondo is a quality point guard who is only going to get better. Look at the 37 yr old Jason Kidd who could not shoot a lick when he first came into the league. If Boston fans want to run Rondo out of town, by all means, send to the Lakers.  :)
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    In Response to Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?:
    [QUOTE]The Celtics would be worse if they replaced Ray and KG after next season with draft picks as opposed to getting younger, quality players back in return via the trade. We are not going to be in a position to draft quality players from our annual draft position anyway so how can we re-build through the draft?  Honestly, I believe you cross your fingers more from the draft than you do by picking up players who have some NBA experience from which to evaluate.  The draft is more of a "crap-shoot" than picking up a talented, young player via trade. Also what in Danny's draft past would make you put more faith in his ability to draft quality players than you would in his ability to trade for them?  Danny has had a questionable track record with draft choices so I, for one, would not be totally comfortable putting the future of the Celtics in Danny's draft picks.  Talk about "crossing your fingers". The Celtics can get a player who is at a minimum 75/80% of Ray or KG's talent level via the trade (and further develop them) as opposed to "hoping" to draft a player who might not touch the court for 2 or 3 years and never know what you might get.
    Posted by Petey62[/QUOTE]

    As usual a great post.  It is definitely very difficult to have good draft picks even if you are choosing at the top of the draft.  Some top draft picks do indeed turn out to be elite players, but many of them are just average players and some  end up in the D league and don't have a chance in the NBA for several years.   Additionally, Doc doesn't give rookies a chance.  Many other teams at least give their rookies a chance to play a few minutes and by the end of the season they are making a positive impact on their team.  I really hope that Doc can change in the future regarding his bench and especially rookies. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: WHat if we did blow up the big four?

    Along the lines of blowing up the big four.
    Here's a link to an article concerning the possibility of KG retiring.
    Speculative but interesting. 
    http://www.celticslife.com/2011/05/kevin-garnett-to-retire.html
     

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