***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsiefan. Show pumpsiefan's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I've said it before but we are so fortunate to have the likes of PatsEng, Faucet and MBeaul and a few others on this board. These guys make Kiper and McShay and other "experts" look like high school kids.
    Even as the pain of Sunday past lingers, there is nothing better than being a Boston sports fan.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I'm not a big fan of signing running backs to big money in free agency, but I wonder what a guy like Marshawn Lynch would command? He's got to be tired of playing for losing teams. He's only 26 and man does he run hard - he had absolutely no help in Seattle this year and still got 1200yards. I know we have two young guys waiting, but one looks like a third down back (size wise Vareen) and the other was a third round pick. I think we could use a guy that has size, power, experience and real NFL production on teams that were concentrating on stopping him.  
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I don't know if any of you guys have noticed but Brady doesn't throw a good deep ball,so finding a receiver who runs deep routes isn't going to help him. Wallace is a good receiver and he can take the cover off the top of a defense,too bad Brady isn't adept at making that throw! If you don't believe me just think back to his throw to Gronk that was picked off he under threw him by 5 yards,also in the Ravens game he did the same thing on a deep route and was picked then also fortunately the Ravens were called for off sides. Now if you are thinking Mallett there is no doubt that he has the gun for the deep ball.Of course he'll be throwing them for another team because Brady isn't retiring anytime soon!
    Posted by sportsbozo1[/QUOTE]

    if you also recall that pass was after Brady got planted into the ground when he hurt his other shoulder. I know it was not his throwing shoulder but I do think it had an effect on his throws.
     
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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : That might have been me because I see Jeffery as another Byrant type of pain in the butt headache. Ton of talent but no sense of reality and will cause trouble. The Pats already passed on Bryant once they will pass on another again
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Here's a link. http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2012/02/nfl-salary-cap-projections-for-2012-season.html Posted by tartarus12 Guys, check out the above link posted on another thread.  The Pats do have about $25MM to play with and Welker would eat almost $10MM of it.  WOW, thanks for posting that link.   The Steelers are in absolute cap "Super Max High Security Prison" at nearly $150MM!!  They are going to have their hands full keeping their top F/As and getting down to the $128MM range.  I don't see any way possible for them to extend Mike Wallace as they have 3 starters on their OL to deal with plus starting CB William Gay.  They will have to restrict Wallace and probably can't match any decent offer.  I've beaten the Wallace horse absolutely senseless, pummeling him over and over until his brain matter splattered all over these pages (sorry for the graphics) these past 24 hours so I won't bring it up again as long as I get credit for the idea if we actually move on it, lol. But William Gay interests me.  He isn't elite but man he has been steady.  The guy has played in every game since being drafted in 2007.  He's only 27 too.  He isn't real flashy, not much of a ball hawk but he was credited with 61 tackles, 2 INTs and 13 PD last year.  He could be a decent insurance policy if Dowling can't stay healthy or we move McCourty to FS and the money shouldn't be bad, plus Addition by Subtraction.  I keep preaching that.  Force the Steelers to burn a draft pick or other resources to replace him. Since Free Agency starts March 13, we really should be focusing most of our efforts on studying this since we have to wait until late April for the draft and our needs hopefully will be very much different by then as it well for a lot of teams.  Guys who aren't free agents are going to get cut as cap cutting measures.   It is so hard to keep up with our team let alone 31 others.  But I will predict there will be some shocking players on the market that nobody is talking about today.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    The Pats have $25M...Does this account for Mayo's contract?

    If Welker costs us $8M-$10M of that $25M, and our draft picks cost us around $5M, that would give us $10-$12M to use in FA, plus there are other guys on our roster currently we need to resign or at least think about resigning.

    Is it possible the Pats do not resign Welker, and instead use the money on an FA WR like Wallace/Meachem/Colston? A higher priced target that provides something different to the offense than what we have today. Again, love Welker, but BB could easily slip Hernandez/Edelman in Welker's spot, draft another TE, sign one of Wallce/Meachem/Colston and also grab Lloyd or a WR via the draft.

    I'm trying to take the emotional part of Welker out of the conversation for a second and see what makes us a stronger team.

    What makes us a better offense?
    TE - Gronk
    TE - Fleener/Allen
    Slot - Hernandez/Edelman
    WR - Wallace
    WR - Lloyd

    OR

    TE - Gronk
    TE - Hernandez
    Slot - Welker
    WR - Lloyd
    WR - Branch / to be drafted

    Personally, I don't see us spending as much as it would take to sign Wallace to a long term contract + resign Welker. We woudl be in the same spot the Jets are by committing close to $20M of the cap towards 2 WRs. Is that smart business? I think they will have to choose...1 high priced WR (Welker or Wallace) + a guy like Lloyd.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I'd take Sanu at 31. He seems like a Patriot type of player. But with Jeffery, BB just cleaned up the clubhouse and even Kraft commented about how much the clubhouse improved this year and how it felt like a family. I don't want to bring in trouble cases in either the first 2 round because dumping them after or during their first year because of locker room issues is a huge waste of a pick. Though at #48 I would really have to think long and hard about Jeffery. The Jets sitting at #47 seem like a perfect spot for him. They love head cases and trouble makers
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Let the headcases go to the Jets. I'm with you.

    Sanu has been tossed around alot. I keep thinking any WR we take in the draft is going to be a #4/5 option at best when Gronk, Hern and Wes, (maybe Lloyd added) are on the field. Is a #4/5 option in our offense worth the 31st pick?

    OR, do we wait until maybe round 2-3 and grab Dwight Jones out of UNC? He's the big WR we all crave, plus as a #4/5 option in our offense that might make better sense? Doesn't have to be Jones, but someone we can get late round 2, or round 3. I think this is a deep WR class, and for teh #4/5 option in our offense, it seems logical to spend in that area....
    thoughts?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***


    So, it could look like this....
    TE - Gronk
    TE - Hernandez
    TE (Option 1) - Possible FA Targets (Shiancoe, Fred Davis, John Carlson) 
    TE (Option 2) - Draft..As much as I want BB to land Fleener or Allen, I don't think he'll spend the pick. Maaybe look to a kid like George Bryan out of NC State (6'5", 260, excellent blocker, capable receiver)
    Slot - Welker
    WR - Lloyd (FA)
    WR - Dwight Jones (Draft)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    lol thanks for confirming my post on page 126 on the cap Faucet. I broke down where I think the money is going and what it's going to spent on in the post. I just don't see a way Wallace fits if we want to fill other holes on the team. Then again I'm a D first type of guy so I have most of the cap space allicated towards D FA's and replacing the 20 FA's we have.

    If we get Lloyd then he's your #2 in a system he's already familiar with, with Welker as your #1 WR. That means if you get a fast outside the numbers guys he's your #3 WR which seems about right. In that sense you can grab some guys with speed to fill that role. Some guys of interest with fast feet in the 3rd-5th round range are T.Y. Hilton, Broyles, and Eric Page. That last one I think you should check out. Comes from a smaller school and not a polished route runner but great YAC ability and can't be caught straight line

    Here's some vid I found. Doesn't highlight his speed but shows his great yac ability

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmDWJW0wmVI

    This one shows his speed a little better. Note watch the burst after the catch and after the defender thinks he matches speed. N Ill was actually so scared of the guy they were punting to him short and squib kicking it all game to him

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnvQXzpGPng


    He doesn't have Wallace speed but as a #3 WR he has more then enough
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]lol thanks for confirming my post on page 126 on the cap Faucet. I broke down where I think the money is going and what it's going to spent on in the post. I just don't see a way Wallace fits if we want to fill other holes on the team. Then again I'm a D first type of guy so I have most of the cap space allicated towards D FA's and replacing the 20 FA's we have. If we get Lloyd then he's your #2 in a system he's already familiar with, with Welker as your #1 WR. That means if you get a fast outside the numbers guys he's your #3 WR which seems about right. In that sense you can grab some guys with speed to fill that role. Some guys of interest with fast feet in the 3rd-5th round range are T.Y. Hilton, Broyles, and Eric Page. That last one I think you should check out. Comes from a smaller school and not a polished route runner but great YAC ability and can't be caught straight line Here's some vid I found. Doesn't highlight his speed but shows his great yac ability http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmDWJW0wmVI This one shows his speed a little better. Note watch the burst after the catch and after the defender thinks he matches speed. N Ill was actually so scared of the guy they were punting to him short and squib kicking it all game to him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnvQXzpGPng He doesn't have Wallace speed but as a #3 WR he has more then enough
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    What type of WR are you thinking best compliments our current stable? Broyles is more of a slot WR. Hilton can line up outside the numbers and stretch it, but he's not going to win any jump balls, and he's not physical off the line. Page I know nothing about.
    Seems like we would want a kid that has good speed, COD, good hands and can beat press man off the line. Someone physical, good blocker in the run game and can win balls downfield if that's where we are throwing.
    This is why I brought up Jones from UNC. he seems to have jsut about everything we are possibly looking for, complimenting our current stable.
    Broyles/Hilton seem somewhat redundant. Maybe just me, but an observation.
    I think where Hilton could add value immediately is his KR/PR ability. We need to upgrade that position big time.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : What type of WR are you thinking best compliments our current stable? Broyles is more of a slot WR. Hilton can line up outside the numbers and stretch it, but he's not going to win any jump balls, and he's not physical off the line. Page I know nothing about. Seems like we would want a kid that has good speed, COD, good hands and can beat press man off the line. Someone physical, good blocker in the run game and can win balls downfield if that's where we are throwing. This is why I brought up Jones from UNC. he seems to have jsut about everything we are possibly looking for, complimenting our current stable. Broyles/Hilton seem somewhat redundant. Maybe just me, but an observation. I think where Hilton could add value immediately is his KR/PR ability. We need to upgrade that position big time.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Personally I want a big possession type of WR that has great body control and can work the sidelines. Brady's strength is accuracy in the short to intermediate range so I want a WR who plays to those strengths (on reason I think Gronk fits so well with Brady). Someone with a large catch radius that can make adjustments to the ball. I think Lloyd has enough speed to force S's back but a lot of people want speed so I was giving options with speed in the mid rounds.

    Eddie Royal is another FA that you should keep an eye on. Again, another player familiar with McDaniels system and runs a 4.40. I think this would be a more realistic option as a second FA to match with Lloyd and Welker then Wallace if you are looking for speed.

    For me though in the draft I'm looking at players like (in no particular order):

    Brian Quick 6'4" 220lbs          4.5's
    Stephen Hill 6'4" 205lbs         4.5's
    Marvin McNutt 6'3" 215lbs      4.6's
    Dwight Jones 6'3" 225lbs       4.55's
    Rueben Randle 6'4" 205lbs    4.5's
    Mohamad Sanu 6'2" 215lbs    4.5's
    Damarlo Belcher 6'5" 215lbs   4.45's
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Three receivers I really like and another one that intrigues me in the draft;

    Jarius Wright 5'10" 176 I hope they draft J. Wright, he can lineup anywhere a WR would lineup.  Has very good speed to create a deep threat.  Tracks the ball well on those deep routes, only concern I have is his release off the line against bigger CBs.  His quickness might make up for lack of strength.

    Ty Hilton 5'10" 184 Hilton is a great character kid that has just as good ability.  Great speed off the line and quickness getting in and out of cuts.  He reminds me a lot of Branch the early years. 

    Chris Givens 6'0" 195 I really like Givens, he needs little work but overall he's a very good route runner.  Very quick getting into cuts, gets of press and start his route quickly.

    Intrigued by:
    Stephen Hill 6'4" 206 He doesn't have elite speed but has good speed to get down field.  a couple of samples of the dudes vertical abilities and hands

    Comes out of Georgia Tech and we all know what type O they run.  He's good at run blocking on the edge but when you play in an offense that evolves around running he has too.  He might have the highest upside of the WRs but about as raw as they come.  Not good at route running, would take a season or two for him to be a caliber WR with a lot of coaching.  Might not be the right answer for NE but this kid has the tools to be very good.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Personally I want a big possession type of WR that has great body control and can work the sidelines. Brady's strength is accuracy in the short to intermediate range so I want a WR who plays to those strengths (on reason I think Gronk fits so well with Brady). Someone with a large catch radius that can make adjustments to the ball. I think Lloyd has enough speed to force S's back but a lot of people want speed so I was giving options with speed in the mid rounds. Eddie Royal is another FA that you should keep an eye on. Again, another player familiar with McDaniels system and runs a 4.40. I think this would be a more realistic option as a second FA to match with Lloyd and Welker then Wallace if you are looking for speed. For me though in the draft I'm looking at players like (in no particular order): Brian Quick 6'4" 220lbs          4.5's Stephen Hill 6'4" 205lbs         4.5's Marvin McNutt 6'3" 215lbs      4.6's Dwight Jones 6'3" 225lbs       4.55's Rueben Randle 6'4" 205lbs    4.5's Mohamad Sanu 6'2" 215lbs    4.5's Damarlo Belcher 6'5" 215lbs   4.45's
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]


    Is is just your preference? Certainly all things being equal you always want a bigger player at any position.

    1) Can he understand the offense and read defenses
    2) Can he get open (that's probably part speed and quickness and part craftiness)
    3) Can he catch consistently

    Giants just won the superbowl with a 6'1 and two 6'0 guys.
    Pats won theirs with 5'9, 6'0, and 2 5'10 guys

    Of guys that fit those measureables you are talking about, the VERY large majority of them that are really good are blue chip receivers up where the Pats are not typically drafting.

    There are exceptions obviously but you have to be a bit lucky.

    Jordy Nelson #5 in 2nd Rd
    Vincent Jackson #29 in 2nd Rd
    Brandon Marshall #22 in 4th Rd
    Marques Colston #44 in 7th Rd

    Brandon Llyod is a 4.6 40 guy. Not sure he's forcing anyone back based on speed respect. He's basically Jabar Gaffney, just tad slower.

    Bottom line for me still remains that one quality. Until the Pats can identify who can read and adjust to a defense in the "same" way as Brady is seeing it, I am gun-shy on drafting ANY WR.

    The Pats have simply not demonstrated this ability consistently in either drafting or FA acquisition and I would rather them make the mistake on a FA WR. Just don't do like with Ocho and give  big signing bonus PRIOR to proof that he gets it and be forced to keep him so you don't feel like you gave away millions for nothing.

    If a WR is not willing to make that type of deal then see ya. As Brady says, if you as a player don't have confidence in yourself how am I suppose to have confidence in you. If a WR the Pats might chase doesn't have the nads to say yeah pay me the bonus AFTER I show you I got this down then they shouldn't want him anyway.

    Just my opinion...
     
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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Three receivers I really like and another one that intrigues me in the draft; Jarius Wright 5'10" 176 I hope they draft J. Wright, he can lineup anywhere a WR would lineup.  Has very good speed to create a deep threat.  Tracks the ball well on those deep routes, only concern I have is his release off the line against bigger CBs.  His quickness might make up for lack of strength. Ty Hilton 5'10" 184 Hilton is a great character kid that has just as good ability.  Great speed off the line and quickness getting in and out of cuts.  He reminds me a lot of Branch the early years.  Chris Givens 6'0" 195 I really like Givens, he needs little work but overall he's a very good route runner.  Very quick getting into cuts, gets of press and start his route quickly. Intrigued by: Stephen Hill 6'4" 206 He doesn't have elite speed but has good speed to get down field.  a couple of samples of the dudes vertical abilities and hands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcs-iqymQrk&noredirect=1    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfALNRblfXk Comes out of Georgia Tech and we all know what type O they run.  He's good at run blocking on the edge but when you play in an offense that evolves around running he has too.  He might have the highest upside of the WRs but about as raw as they come.  Not good at route running, would take a season or two for him to be a caliber WR with a lot of coaching.  Might not be the right answer for NE but this kid has the tools to be very good.
    Posted by Pats7393[/QUOTE]


    Both great highlight clips. I was cracking up listening to the announcer on the 1 handed grab with the what a great throw what a great catch bit. lol great throw?

    Again though my problem with watching any of these things on WR's is does anyone not think Ocho can do those catches on any given good day?

    If the kid can't read and adjust to the D the way Brady sees it he ain't seeing the field.

    Is that fact as ridiculously frustrating for you all as it is for me?
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Is is just your preference? Certainly all things being equal you always want a bigger player at any position. 1) Can he understand the offense and read defenses 2) Can he get open (that's probably part speed and quickness and part craftiness) 3) Can he catch consistently Giants just won the superbowl with a 6'1 and two 6'0 guys. Pats won theirs with 5'9, 6'0, and 2 5'10 guys Of guys that fit those measureables you are talking about, the VERY large majority of them that are really good are blue chip receivers up where the Pats are not typically drafting. There are exceptions obviously but you have to be a bit lucky. Jordy Nelson #5 in 2nd Rd Vincent Jackson #29 in 2nd Rd Brandon Marshall #22 in 4th Rd Marques Colston #44 in 7th Rd Brandon Llyod is a 4.6 40 guy. Not sure he's forcing anyone back based on speed respect. He's basically Jabar Gaffney, just tad slower. Bottom line for me still remains that one quality. Until the Pats can identify who can read and adjust to a defense in the "same" way as Brady is seeing it, I am gun-shy on drafting ANY WR. The Pats have simply not demonstrated this ability consistently in either drafting or FA acquisition and I would rather them make the mistake on a FA WR. Just don't do like with Ocho and give  big signing bonus PRIOR to proof that he gets it and be forced to keep him so you don't feel like you gave away millions for nothing. If a WR is not willing to make that type of deal then see ya. As Brady says, if you as a player don't have confidence in yourself how am I suppose to have confidence in you. If a WR the Pats might chase doesn't have the nads to say yeah pay me the bonus AFTER I show you I got this down then they shouldn't want him anyway. Just my opinion...
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    This concerns me as well. I do have a question however. How do rookies / 2nd year players like Gronk and Hernandez get it, while other rooks/2nd-4th year players and FAs don't? Is it position related...TE vs. WR?

     
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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Both great highlight clips. I was cracking up listening to the announcer on the 1 handed grab with the what a great throw what a great catch bit. lol great throw? Again though my problem with watching any of these things on WR's is does anyone not think Ocho can do those catches on any given good day? If the kid can't read and adjust to the D the way Brady sees it he ain't seeing the field. Is that fact as ridiculously frustrating for you all as it is for me?
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    This kid is so damn intriguing to me, maybe because GA Tech is 20 min down highway 75 from me but think it's more of how much raw talent this kid has but you are right this is a major project.

    He needs to learn the game, GA Tech is not by any means a WR college although Megatron came from there but he's just a beast.  I don't know if the Pats would make the commitment on this kid, highly doubt it.  Learning the O is one thing when you know how to read and react, not knowing how to read to then react is where this kid is.

    So I'm not in any means saying draft him, just intrigued to what type of player he could become with two years in a system and learn to play the position.  Would take at least 2 years I think.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : This concerns me as well. I do have a question however. How do rookies / 2nd year players like Gronk and Hernandez get it, while other rooks/2nd-4th year players and FAs don't? Is it position related...TE vs. WR?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    To me it's more then position related. The main reason I want a large possession guy over a smaller quicker guy is because of the size mismatch. Face it when you are going against 5'10"-6'0" CB's and S's and you're 6'4"+ then you don't need separation you just need to box them out. Hern and Gronk are both very good at catching balls with players on tight coverage because they can box guys out with their size and out jump players.

    It's just another form of separation and you hear it from BB when he talks about Gronks catch radius.

    To me a larger possession WR will mesh with Brady better because they mismatch against smaller DB's and Brady essentially has a larger window to throw into tighter coverage because of that larger catching radius. Smaller guys like Welker have smaller catching radius's and thus need to develop a chemistry and essentially develop the same brain as Brady
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : To me it's more then position related. The main reason I want a large possession guy over a smaller quicker guy is because of the size mismatch. Face it when you are going against 5'10"-6'0" CB's and S's and you're 6'4"+ then you don't need separation you just need to box them out. Hern and Gronk are both very good at catching balls with players on tight coverage because they can box guys out with their size and out jump players. It's just another form of separation and you hear it from BB when he talks about Gronks catch radius. To me a larger possession WR will mesh with Brady better because they mismatch against smaller DB's and Brady essentially has a larger window to throw into tighter coverage because of that larger catching radius. Smaller guys like Welker have smaller catching radius's and thus need to develop a chemistry and essentially develop the same brain as Brady
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    I'm with you 100%. This is why I think we should consider Dwight Jones at the end of round 2/round 3. I think he has the measurables/skill set your looking for + he's a solid run blocker on top of that.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : The Pats have $25M...Does this account for Mayo's contract? If Welker costs us $8M-$10M of that $25M, and our draft picks cost us around $5M, that would give us $10-$12M to use in FA, plus there are other guys on our roster currently we need to resign or at least think about resigning. Is it possible the Pats do not resign Welker, and instead use the money on an FA WR like Wallace/Meachem/Colston? A higher priced target that provides something different to the offense than what we have today. Again, love Welker, but BB could easily slip Hernandez/Edelman in Welker's spot, draft another TE, sign one of Wallce/Meachem/Colston and also grab Lloyd or a WR via the draft. I'm trying to take the emotional part of Welker out of the conversation for a second and see what makes us a stronger team. What makes us a better offense? TE - Gronk TE - Fleener/Allen Slot - Hernandez/Edelman WR - Wallace WR - Lloyd OR TE - Gronk TE - Hernandez Slot - Welker WR - Lloyd WR - Branch / to be drafted Personally, I don't see us spending as much as it would take to sign Wallace to a long term contract + resign Welker. We woudl be in the same spot the Jets are by committing close to $20M of the cap towards 2 WRs. Is that smart business? I think they will have to choose...1 high priced WR (Welker or Wallace) + a guy like Lloyd.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]
    Yes, Mayo, Ninkovich, Wendell and the guys who were extended during the season are all counting in our cap number.  The new CBA also allows for a 3 player veteran exception if it saves their jobs vs getting cut.  So guys like Light and Welker might have their contracts exempted.  I have to go look at the specifics of this new rule.

    I love that most of our biggest rivals are in cap trouble like the Jets, Dolphins, Steelers and now the hated Giants.  I've been saying it, there will be some big names to get whacked from some of these teams that nobody is talking about now.

    POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERSTeams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency.Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765Washington Redskins     $94,351,284Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174Denver Broncos                $101,389,121New England Patriots     $101,827,381Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162WORKING ON A BUDGETTeams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries.Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422Houston Texans                 $116,306,676Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639TIGHTENING THE BELTTeams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be.St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121New York Giants              $124,735,807New York Jets                   $128,092,733Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Personally I want a big possession type of WR that has great body control and can work the sidelines. Brady's strength is accuracy in the short to intermediate range so I want a WR who plays to those strengths (on reason I think Gronk fits so well with Brady). Someone with a large catch radius that can make adjustments to the ball. I think Lloyd has enough speed to force S's back but a lot of people want speed so I was giving options with speed in the mid rounds. Eddie Royal is another FA that you should keep an eye on. Again, another player familiar with McDaniels system and runs a 4.40. I think this would be a more realistic option as a second FA to match with Lloyd and Welker then Wallace if you are looking for speed. For me though in the draft I'm looking at players like (in no particular order): Brian Quick 6'4" 220lbs          4.5's Stephen Hill 6'4" 205lbs         4.5's Marvin McNutt 6'3" 215lbs      4.6's Dwight Jones 6'3" 225lbs       4.55's Rueben Randle 6'4" 205lbs    4.5's Mohamad Sanu 6'2" 215lbs    4.5's Damarlo Belcher 6'5" 215lbs   4.45's
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Perhaps one could add Marvin Jones (6'1.7") to the list. He has been clocked as low as 4.3 and as high as 4.64. Mostly working in relative obscurity at California he was on the Watch List for WR of the year and scouts have said that his 55 reception total for 2011-12 could have been better if he worked with a top flight QB.

    So far not much.  Preseason was rated 64/238 WRs, post season rated 17/140.
    Based on his performance in the North/South game he was thought to be the most CONSISTENT (wr) performer there.  He was quick off the snap, had a burst COD to gain separation, caught everything in sight and was able to track balls well over-the-shoulder as well as adjust to poorly thrown balls.   He showed aggressiveness fighting for the ball. Scouts were surprised by his downfield speed as he easily separated from defensive backs (field fast?).

    His performance at the All-Star Mobile Bowl only confirmed what was said at the North/South game with the added comment that CBs were more highly rated at Mobile.

    As a result of his post season performances one scout rated him a "riser" and predicted that Marvin could be a STARTING wr for an NFL team.  Marvin's stats show year to year improvement and he is a 4 year college wr. Supposedly 5 NFL teams rated him as a potential 1st round selection. He could be one of several sleepers in this upcoming draft and he certainly deserves consideration in the high 2nd-3rd round  (IMO).
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Below are the rules.  The cap was $142.4MM last year but starting in 2012, the cap is adjusted per the below.

    This is what I have found out regarding the 2012 cap.

    The salary cap for 2012 has not been set, but it is projected to be between $121-125 million, with teams being able to borrow another $2 million from future caps. Therefore, we’ll safely project the salary cap to be at $124 million in ’12. But please understand this is an estimation.

     

    So, let's assume worst case it's $124MM.  Teams like the Patriots who played within the old cap rules during uncapped 2010 are in great shape whereas teams like the Jets and Steelers are in big trouble. 

    Each team has the option of using a $3 million exemption this year (2011) on a signed player to free up some room. Next year, teams will have the option of designating three player exemptions at $1.5 million each.  It looks like teams can borrow $4.5MM in future cap for 2012 for three players so they may spend perhaps up to $128.5MM, maybe more. 

    So, if we are at $102MM now and can go to $128.5MM we have $26.5MM in cap.  Tagging Welker would cost $9.4MM leaving $17.1MM.  Approx $5MM is needed for Rookies meaning we have $12.1MM of cap space to sign our current F/A and anyone new.  Ocho and Wright I believe will be cut freeing something like $3MM.  Anderson, Connolly, Love and Slater would appear to be priorities, not sure about BJGE or G. Warren.  Hoyer, Ellis, Koppen, Guyton, and Faulk I feel will be gone.  Right now, I believe we would have about $8-10MM of cap space to play with so we could get 2 high priced F/A or 8-10 value guys.

    ECONOMICS:

    » Salary cap plus benefits of $142.4 million per club in 2011 ($120.375 million for salary and bonus) and at least that amount in 2012 and 2013.
    » Beginning in 2012, salary cap to be set based on a combined share of "all revenue," a new model differentiated by revenue source with no expense reductions. Players will receive 55 percent of national media revenue, 45 percent of NFL Ventures revenue, and 40 percent of local club revenue.
    » Beginning in 2012, annual "true up" to reflect revenue increases or decreases versus projections.
    » Clubs receive credit for actual stadium investment and up to 1.5 percent of revenue each year.
    » Player share must average at least 47 percent for the 10-year term of the agreement.
    » League-wide commitment to cash spending of 99 percent of the cap in 2011 and 2012.
    » For the 2013-2016 seasons, and again for the 2017-2020 seasons, the clubs collectively will commit to cash spending of at least 95 percent of the cap.
    » Each club committed to cash spending of 89 percent of the cap from 2013-2016 and 2017-2020.
    » Increases to minimum salaries of 10 percent in Year 1 with continuing increases each year of the agreement.

    2011-2012 TRANSITION RULES:

    » Special transition rules to protect veteran players in 2011. All teams will have approximately $3.5 million in what would otherwise be performance-based pay available to fund veteran player salaries.
    » Each club may "borrow" up to $3 million in cap room from a future year, which may be used to support veteran player costs.
    » In 2012, each club may "borrow" up to $1.5 million in cap room from a future year. Both these amounts would be repaid in future years.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Eng/Lifer,

    I think Welker will get tagged unless he is extended first.  Once tagged, they could go year-to-year but most likely they will work out a deal that is less painful to the cap.  As for Wallace, I think he could be had for much less than what we've been talking.  First, if PIT restricts him at the 1st round level, it costs them $2.8MM.  They are already in huge cap jail so any offer we make would be hard for them to match and if they do match, they will have to let other player(s) go to make room.  I need to look where PIT is spending their money, we could see several high priced guys cut.

    Back to Wallace.  I think it possible we could get him at a cap number of about $5MM.  Lloyd would probably be about $3MM.  Branch could probably come back for $2MM or less.  If Welker gets tagged then extended I could see his cap charge cut to maybe $6MM.  My point it there is room for all of these guys, Welker, Wallace, Lloyd, Branch and Edelman.  But I agree we aren't likely to go after Wallace.

    I need to study who PIT and some of the other teams in cap prison have for high profile guys that would clear a lot of cap if cut.  Perhaps a Woodley, Harrison, OC from the Giants, etc could be in trouble.  Don't know until I look.  more later...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Eng/Lifer, I think Welker will get tagged unless he is extended first.  Once tagged, they could go year-to-year but most likely they will work out a deal that is less painful to the cap.  As for Wallace, I think he could be had for much less than what we've been talking.  First, if PIT restricts him at the 1st round level, it costs them $2.8MM.  They are already in huge cap jail so any offer we make would be hard for them to match and if they do match, they will have to let other player(s) go to make room.  I need to look where PIT is spending their money, we could see several high priced guys cut. Back to Wallace.  I think it possible we could get him at a cap number of about $5MM.  Lloyd would probably be about $3MM.  Branch could probably come back for $2MM or less.  If Welker gets tagged then extended I could see his cap charge cut to maybe $6MM.  My point it there is room for all of these guys, Welker, Wallace, Lloyd, Branch and Edelman.  But I agree we aren't likely to go after Wallace. I need to study who PIT and some of the other teams in cap prison have for high profile guys that would clear a lot of cap if cut.  Perhaps a Woodley, Harrison, OC from the Giants, etc could be in trouble.  Don't know until I look.  more later...
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Here you go found this article 


    POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERS

    Teams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency.

    Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237

    Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765

    Washington Redskins     $94,351,284

    Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195

    Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458

    Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174

    Denver Broncos                $101,389,121

    New England Patriots     $101,827,381

    Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741

    San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980

    Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162

    WORKING ON A BUDGET

    Teams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries.

    Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274

    Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522

    Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430

    San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165

    New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069

    Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694

    Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281

    Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422

    Houston Texans                 $116,306,676

    Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173

    Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288

    Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169

    Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639

    TIGHTENING THE BELT

    Teams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be.

    St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904

    Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121

    New York Giants              $124,735,807

    New York Jets                   $128,092,733

    Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735

    Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768

    Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316

    Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537

    After taking a look at the early numbers my hope is you’ll understand why the Dolphins can’t do it big in free agency right now (quarterback upgrade is team owner Steve Ross‘ priority, then discount shopping from bargains) without restructuring plenty of contracts, or cutting a few high profile players.

    Also, keep in mind the free agent class will get enhanced over the next few weeks as teams try to get their books in order. Those players can sign with a new team immediately, but keep in mind they are usually damaged goods (injury history, declining play, problematic personalities, etc.).

    G.G.G.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    " This year the cap figures to be between $121-125 million with teams allowed to borrow $2 million from future caps."

    http://nflsfuture.com/2012/02/07/nfl-offseason-primer-team-by-team-salary-cap-projections/ 

    Didn't know this rule, borrowing up to 2 mil of a future cap.  Not smart business I think but gives some of teams in trouble flexibility if they know they have expiring contracts that by that year's cap and they will be much lower.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Eng/Lifer, I think Welker will get tagged unless he is extended first.  Once tagged, they could go year-to-year but most likely they will work out a deal that is less painful to the cap.  As for Wallace, I think he could be had for much less than what we've been talking.  First, if PIT restricts him at the 1st round level, it costs them $2.8MM.  They are already in huge cap jail so any offer we make would be hard for them to match and if they do match, they will have to let other player(s) go to make room.  I need to look where PIT is spending their money, we could see several high priced guys cut. Back to Wallace.  I think it possible we could get him at a cap number of about $5MM.  Lloyd would probably be about $3MM.  Branch could probably come back for $2MM or less.  If Welker gets tagged then extended I could see his cap charge cut to maybe $6MM.  My point it there is room for all of these guys, Welker, Wallace, Lloyd, Branch and Edelman.  But I agree we aren't likely to go after Wallace. I need to study who PIT and some of the other teams in cap prison have for high profile guys that would clear a lot of cap if cut.  Perhaps a Woodley, Harrison, OC from the Giants, etc could be in trouble.  Don't know until I look.  more later...
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I agree we could get Wallace and the other guys you mention, my argument was more based at what cost. In other words if we spent big on the WR core for Welker, Lloyd, and Wallace how much room does that actually leave us for D players? I've always been a D man so I'm a biased towards where I want the money to go honestly. I take a look at Ridley gaining BB's trust over the summer, Vereen getting a chance to work in, Hern, Gronk, Welker coming back, Lloyd being an upgrade over Branch, and Branch being an upgrade over Ocho. How much would a Wallace add to the overall O vs say a younger (Sanu, Floyd) with #31 and then take that $5mil you would have spent on Wallace and get a Griffin or Williams for the secondary? I just think that the bigger improvement and better use of cap space is not spent on Wallace.

    Besides if $5mil would be enough to get Wallace a number of teams would do it. Don't forget it's not just the Pats and Pit but every team could grab him and Wallace seems like a player to me that will go after the bigger contract
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Perhaps one could add Marvin Jones (6'1.7") to the list. He has been clocked as low as 4.3 and as high as 4.64. Mostly working in relative obscurity at California he was on the Watch List for WR of the year and scouts have said that his 55 reception total for 2011-12 could have been better if he worked with a top flight QB. So far not much.  Preseason was rated 64/238 WRs, post season rated 17/140. Based on his performance in the North/South game he was thought to be the most CONSISTENT (wr) performer there.  He was quick off the snap, had a burst COD to gain separation, caught everything in sight and was able to track balls well over-the-shoulder as well as adjust to poorly thrown balls.   He showed aggressiveness fighting for the ball. Scouts were surprised by his downfield speed as he easily separated from defensive backs (field fast?). His performance at the All-Star Mobile Bowl only confirmed what was said at the North/South game with the added comment that CBs were more highly rated at Mobile. As a result of his post season performances one scout rated him a "riser" and predicted that Marvin could be a STARTING wr for an NFL team.  Marvin's stats show year to year improvement and he is a 4 year college wr. Supposedly 5 NFL teams rated him as a potential 1st round selection. He could be one of several sleepers in this upcoming draft and he certainly deserves consideration in the high 2nd-3rd round  (IMO).
    Posted by moskk[/QUOTE]

    I'll have to look Jones up. Don't know a lot about him honestly. But if he's ~6'2" and can run a sub 4.4 I would be very interested to see how he handles running routes, his yac ability, and his body control
     

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