***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    I agree that we should look for someone next to Wilfork. Question is, do you look at a kid like jenkins who is also a mammoth run stopper, or someone a bitquicker that can push the pocket and be disruptive? Asmuch as I love Wilfork, he's not exactly a threat to rush the passer from the interior.

    Also agree with upgrading nink...question..is Cunningham ready to progress more and be a nice bookend to jones? We may already have our de of the future to upgrade nink if folks think he can continue to progress. Thoughts?

    This might sound crazy and not economically feasible, but how much could we save if mankins was let loose? Could we get a 2nd rounder for him? I knowit sounds crazy but I really think we should consider it given his injuries and the potential to start cannon at lg. we could then draft another tackle with whatever we could get for mankins. Takers? This may also free up some cash to keep Wes which I believe we should retain him.

    spam the lone wolf and think Chung should not be retained unless it is done very cheaply. I think with another year in the system, Wilson would be better and Chung just makes too many mental gaffes for me. I like Gregory even less. Move one of our cb's to safety. I like the starting duo of Wilson and dowling, Dennard and McCourty start at cb, with Arrington in the slot.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I agree that we should look for someone next to Wilfork. Question is, do you look at a kid like jenkins who is also a mammoth run stopper, or someone a bitquicker that can push the pocket and be disruptive? Asmuch as I love Wilfork, he's not exactly a threat to rush the passer from the interior.

    Also agree with upgrading nink...question..is Cunningham ready to progress more and be a nice bookend to jones? We may already have our de of the future to upgrade nink if folks think he can continue to progress. Thoughts?

    This might sound crazy and not economically feasible, but how much could we save if mankins was let loose? Could we get a 2nd rounder for him? I knowit sounds crazy but I really think we should consider it given his injuries and the potential to start cannon at lg. we could then draft another tackle with whatever we could get for mankins. Takers? This may also free up some cash to keep Wes which I believe we should retain him.

    spam the lone wolf and think Chung should not be retained unless it is done very cheaply. I think with another year in the system, Wilson would be better and Chung just makes too many mental gaffes for me. I like Gregory even less. Move one of our cb's to safety. I like the starting duo of Wilson and dowling, Dennard and McCourty start at cb, with Arrington in the slot.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think you are underestimating what both Jenkins and Wilfork do to the passing game. Try they won't put up numbers similar to the pass rushing threats around the league but they can be just as disruptive to the passing game. Really a QB needs a clean pocket to step up into to make a strong accurate through. What both Jenkins and Wilfork do is push 2 OL straight backwards preventing the QB to step up into the pocket. This has a couple of effects that are very noticable:

    • Forces the QB towards the edge rushers namely Nink and Jones
    • A QB on the run away from the middle doesn't provide the best football protection leading to more fumbles
    • Not being up to step up into the pocket decreases accuracy drastically resulting in lower completion % and higher ints
    • Not being able to step up into the pocket decrease distance to which a QB can throw


    Those factors are huge in the passing game and one huge reason Jenkins numbers are deceiving. When looking at both Jenkins and Wilforks numbers you can clearly see a pattern when they are playing to their level. The DE's around them become more productive and the opposing QB's pass completion and QB rating decrease. In addition having to large walls also prevents QB scrambles and draw plays. This forces the ball outside where this team has really been built (Jones, and Nink can set an edge. Hightower and Mayo both know how to close the edge. Finally Arrington and McCourty are 2 of the best at containing the edge). Completely taking away a running game makes the game 1 dimensional and puts the QB even more at risk as OL's do suffer from fatigue if asked to keep 4 players in the center to deal with 2 big bodies every play. In addition comes the benefit that since you have 2 large bodies 3 OL can't possibly hope to contain both bodies and they then have to commit to keeping a TE in or RB in for the extra blocking.


    BTW watch Jenkins on film he is extrememly explosive of the snap. I saw one play where his large mitt almost nailed the ball of the exchange between the C and QB

     

    As for Cunningham I don't see him as a solution at all. If anything his current role shows he'll never be anything but a pass rushing specialist. Proof is in the plays the use him. If it's 3rd <3 to go he's not in their for risk of the draw. He's only placed in passing situations only and never used in rushing situations. If it's one thing you can say about Nink is he is extremely good at setting and controling an edge, not to mention his ability to snif out screens. I'm thinking if we were to replace Nink we'd replace what he does the best first and hope the person who replaces him has raw potential or already developed pass rushing moves

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    Jenkins is huge body and I can imagine what Wilfork and he could do together. I was just asking if we wanted someone a bit more quick twitch or if 2 nts playing together is the right formula. Just seems like a strangefront foureference guard to talent mix. 

    I don't agree on Cunningham.... His use today is a product of what he can do today and not necessarily representative of what he is capable of tomorrow. He added strength and speed, maybe he needs a bit more time in the systemtoo put it all together. I am not saying we know for sure he has oe hasn't reached full potential, just that the book on him I think is still open. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Jenkins is huge body and I can imagine what Wilfork and he could do together. I was just asking if we wanted someone a bit more quick twitch or if 2 nts playing together is the right formula. Just seems like a strangefront foureference guard to talent mix. 

    I don't agree on Cunningham.... His use today is a product of what he can do today and not necessarily representative of what he is capable of tomorrow. He added strength and speed, maybe he needs a bit more time in the systemtoo put it all together. I am not saying we know for sure he has oe hasn't reached full potential, just that the book on him I think is still open. 

     

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    there's an old saying that is rarely wrong. It goes, after 3 years you know what a player is. Now there are exceptions but for the most part what you see after 3 years is generally what you get and Cunningham just isn't a run defender nor do I think he ever will be. Besides he's not the best pass rusher either. He's better then a JAG but I would never want him to start for us

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Jenkins is huge body and I can imagine what Wilfork and he could do together. I was just asking if we wanted someone a bit more quick twitch or if 2 nts playing together is the right formula. Just seems like a strangefront foureference guard to talent mix. 

    I don't agree on Cunningham.... His use today is a product of what he can do today and not necessarily representative of what he is capable of tomorrow. He added strength and speed, maybe he needs a bit more time in the systemtoo put it all together. I am not saying we know for sure he has oe hasn't reached full potential, just that the book on him I think is still open. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Cunningham does still have potential to improve and obviously has from last year, but still not to where we'd expect in year 3 after what he flashed in year 1. His best role is as a Rosie Colvin 3-4 OLB, a style we don't play as much anymore.

    If the Pats plan on being mostly (70%+) a 4-3 then they need this:

    1. A DT monster/borderline all-pro who can push the pocket, with Love used as a backup to both him and Wilfork (important as wilfork plays past age 30)

    2. A pure rush DE, someone who will get 10 sacks opposite Jones like Carter and Anderson did. This would make Nink and Cunningham backup DE's who play OLB when we occasionally play 3-4

    3. A speedy pure 4-3 ILB, not a star, just a smart and fast guy used to calling his teams D in college who you can get with a 3rd-5th rd pick. He can play ILB on obvious pass plays where Spikes sits.

    If the Pats plan on being mostly a 3-4, or what BB obviously has most success/knowledge with over his whole career, then they have Ted Johnson (Spikes) Bruschi (Mayo) McGinest (Jones) Vrabel (Nink/Hightower), Colvin (Cunningham/Hightower), a young Bryan Cox (Hightower/Spikes), Washington/Wilfork (Wilfork), Jarvis Green (Deaderick) and solid depth (Love/Brace)

    They just need Seymour and Bobby Hamilton/Ty Warren

    They currently have more LB's who would benefit from playing a 3-4, they just don't have any 6'4" 300lb DE's who will get you 5-7 sacks like Warren, Hamilton and Seymour.

    So what would be easier to get this offseason? We passed on Cullen Jenkins in '11 and Red Bryant in '12 in free agency, and took Wilson (he does look solid) over Reyes and Still when Wilson would 99.9% have been there in rd 3.

    So what direction do/should they go?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    Honestly I no longer look at the Pats as a 34 or 43 anymore. We run so many sub plays and exotic looks that it's impossible to tell just from the line up. We've seen them line up 4 and rush 1 letting 3 drop back and we've also seen 1 down and 5 rush. What I think BB wants the most is control of the center of the line. With Wilfork and Spikes he has 2/3rds of the control from one B/C gap to the other. Then he want's players who can play gap assignments and /setcontrol the edge. This is Nink specialty along with Mayo. Hightower and Jones are rooks but also seem adepth at it. Then further out from that he wants CB's who down the outside lanes and McCourty with Arrington a both adepth at that. It's almost funny that he built a D designed to contain and defeat and O style the Pats run. It's one reason he almost never blitzes is because he wants to force pressure without giving up the man advantage nor control over the line. If you think about it the players he has give him the most flexibility.

    Hightower can line up at ILB, OLB, or as a DE with his hand down. Cunningham as a OLB/DE/DT. Wilfork as a NT/DT/DE. Mayo as a ILB/OLB, Wilson as a SS/FS/LB. Deadrick as a DT/DE. Jones as a OLB/DE. If you toss in anothe DT/DE type and a larger SS/LB type and B could have a field day. IMO they are 1 DL and 1 DB to make this D something really special and where those players fit is just a matter of personal philsophy. Personally I like inside pressure forcing the QB into your play makers hands on the DL and for the DB I like quicker FS's who can make plays on the ball in a hurry (Reed type)

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Honestly I no longer look at the Pats as a 34 or 43 anymore. We run so many sub plays and exotic looks that it's impossible to tell just from the line up. We've seen them line up 4 and rush 1 letting 3 drop back and we've also seen 1 down and 5 rush. What I think BB wants the most is control of the center of the line. With Wilfork and Spikes he has 2/3rds of the control from one B/C gap to the other. Then he want's players who can play gap assignments and /setcontrol the edge. This is Nink specialty along with Mayo. Hightower and Jones are rooks but also seem adepth at it. Then further out from that he wants CB's who down the outside lanes and McCourty with Arrington a both adepth at that. It's almost funny that he built a D designed to contain and defeat and O style the Pats run. It's one reason he almost never blitzes is because he wants to force pressure without giving up the man advantage nor control over the line. If you think about it the players he has give him the most flexibility.

    Hightower can line up at ILB, OLB, or as a DE with his hand down. Cunningham as a OLB/DE/DT. Wilfork as a NT/DT/DE. Mayo as a ILB/OLB, Wilson as a SS/FS/LB. Deadrick as a DT/DE. Jones as a OLB/DE. If you toss in anothe DT/DE type and a larger SS/LB type and B could have a field day. IMO they are 1 DL and 1 DB to make this D something really special and where those players fit is just a matter of personal philsophy. Personally I like inside pressure forcing the QB into your play makers hands on the DL and for the DB I like quicker FS's who can make plays on the ball in a hurry (Reed type)

    [/QUOTE]


    Yes they run a lot of exotic stuff and attempt to confuse and have many players who can move all over...

    But to me it just boils down to the line, more than the LB's. Cunningham and Nink are better OLB's than DE's, this is pretty obvious. Nink was a 5th rd pick based on his career as a 6'2" 260 DE in college. Cunningham was 2nd-3rd rd talent as a OLB convert and looked good there in '10 before bulking up a bit and falling off the face as they tried to make him a DE again in '11. But only rated as a 4th-5th rd talent as a 6'3" 255 DE, so that should have been well known.

    It is fine not to label it a 4-3 or a 3-4 specifically, and with the guys we have, specifically Jones, Hightower, Mayo and Wilfork, it really isn't.

    But then what type of player should we draft? I guess the Pats should just take the best available lineman then? Figure out the formations after, just make sure they nail the pick, get the talent, not be cute, and go from there?

    But clearly we have enough LB's except for maybe a speedster inside guy.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    So if its one of the Texas DE's like Jeffcoat or Okafor, or another 6'4" 255 guy (say another speed-rusher like Buchanan) then we can just assume they"ll be better than Nink or Cunningham at DE and bookend Wilfork/Love with that guy and Jones for years?

    This leaves a couple talented guys not seeing the field a lot, while it is nice to have that depth, I still think we're missing that Seymour, Warren, B-Ham DE more than anything.

    And wouldn't that be a 3-4, or would you call it 2 guys are are DE/DT's, 2 guys who are DE/OLB's, 2 guys who are OLB/ILB's and one ILB lining up all over the place? Haha.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to NEGAME2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Watchlist updated 10/7!

    [/QUOTE]


    mbeaulieu--can't remember, was J.J. Watt in the Patriots reach in the draft. I do remember you were very high on him.

    [/QUOTE]

    he was 11

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
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    In response to bredbru's comment:
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    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
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    In response to bredbru's comment:
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    by the way, see the rankings today?

    ohio state, kansas state, nd are all better than lsu? try playing them.

    in fact wv mgiht have a problem.

    i think they underrank how good florida is/was.

    on the other hand, south car. and florida play one another and regardles who wins are probably still both one of teh best 4 teams in teh country.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You can't have a (1) loss team ahead of (3) undefeated teams.

    LSU has the same issues as ND... a BCS Championship level defense with an unproven/inconsistent offense.  ND in particular is 2nd in the nation in scoring defense (behind only Alabama) and hasn't given up a TD in any of the last (3) games vs. Michigan St/Michigan/Miami, the first two were ranked at the time and Miami just came off of a ACC record passing performance vs. NC St the week before... granted there was some luck involved in the Miami game as one of their WR's dropp two potential TD catches in their first drive... but did little after.

    [/QUOTE]

    "You can't have a (1) loss team ahead of (3) undefeated teams"

    absoluitley disagree with this. you are ranking the best team. # of losses is not the point.

    i see nd has improved

    like to see them play lsu first or s carolina, florida, etc before putting them ahead of lsu.

    peace bro

    [/QUOTE]

    And ND is one of the best teams, as have been KSU and WVU.  All three have flaws as does LSU, but you can't just keep them ahead of teams based solely on SEC bias... they lost to a good football and should drop as a result. 

    [/QUOTE]


    what you are claling sec bias (yes i am a sec and florida teams fan) i call seeing who would be better (no different than an nfl power rnaking) if they played against each other. i do it in the nfl without bias as well. and if i was an oregon fan i would sayt the same thing. 

    nothing wrong if we differ. can we agree on that?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to natesubs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
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    Mb...can we take JJ watt? Or maybe his twin brother?

    [/QUOTE]


    everyone thought i was nuts when i said we shuold trade up for him and was practically obsessed with him and thought he would be a sure probowler.

    [/QUOTE]

    i was not the first by far but was part of teh gang who wanted to move up for him.

    at this point it looks like it woudl have been a godsend.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    After Sundays game a couple of things really stuck out to me


    1) When Wilfork was not in the game the D really took a heavy hit

    2) Nink once he gets going is an adequent end though an upgrade would be nice

    3) Love will never provide an interior rush nor can he hold up against the run if Wilfork isn't next to him

     

    With that in mind I'm going to focus solely on finding a DT/NT to have next to Wilfork. If I was targetting that position right now I'm looking at

    #1 Jonathan Jenkins - even if you need to move up 10 spots well worth the pick. He's a younger version of Wilfork imo

    #2 Daniel McCullers - though not Jenkins he has more power and explosiveness then Love. He has some moves to get to the QB but is still a bit raw on leverage against bigger OL and needs to expand his pass rushing moves. Still he's a nice backup plan if Jenkins is out of reach

    #3 Jesse Williams - Just on shear raw potential he's one of the top DT's in his class but with raw potential comes the raw aspect. This kid is going to need work and might take a year to develop

    [/QUOTE]

    i agree on everything you said

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just thought I'd ask: What if the Pats fail to sign Chung? Does that make safety #1 priority? because to me you still try to get a DT or bookend DE/OLB for Jones and Fork to work with and increase the pressure.

    [/QUOTE]

    no, d and o line are higher priority.

    cheap fa devin on a cheap year to year to see if he can be our safety.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
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    In response to PatsEng's comment:
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    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
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    HC/PE,

    Let's say Barrett Jones and John Jenkins are both there for the taking with NE's 1st Rd pick, who ya got?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Good question but the answer is a resounding Jenkins on all accounts. I always go D first and foremost, esp with the limited shelf life of Brady and Wilfork. You need to plan for the future and a team without Brady is going to need a strong anchor on the DL. Just some things to me are philosophically fundamental for me:

    1) You don't take a RG in the 1st nor do you take take a backup to a pro-bowl player under a massive contract for the next 4 years or so. Since Mankins is under contract and won't be let go anytime soon their is no need for a LG nor would I take a RG so early given the way Wendell has held his own at that position

    2) The D starts from the center of the DL and moves outward. You have Jones and Wilfork so adding another big disruptive DT would cause other teams nightmares before they even get on the field. If you have a strong D it can always make up for a weaker O (not the case in NE) but a strong O can't always make up for a weak D

    3) We have Scar so you can find quality OL between rounds 1-UDFA but as been proven time and time again with the Pats if you want an impact DL then you need to shop early and often

     

    For all of that I'd go Jenkins (call me mini Wilfork) in a landslide

    [/QUOTE]

    Solid reasoning, not a lot to debate (assuming Jenkins is as good as advertised), the only thing I'd add in favor of Barrett is that he gives you value at C and emergency T as well... but you wouldn't get an argument from me goind DL over OL under this scenario.  Bjoern Werner is the top player on my board, but my feeling is he'll prob play himself out of range, assuming he declares.

    [/QUOTE]

    all 3 of those guys will be high, our pick very late, so might not even be within reach with trade

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just thought I'd ask: What if the Pats fail to sign Chung? Does that make safety #1 priority? because to me you still try to get a DT or bookend DE/OLB for Jones and Fork to work with and increase the pressure.

    [/QUOTE]


    I'd still go DL because D always starts in the trenches and ripples out. Besides BB drafted 2 players with similar abilities as Chung in Wilson and Ebner. There would be a drop off but imo that drop off would be small when compared to the benefit of adding to the DL. If they are going to look at the S position though they could look for an upgrade to Gregory. A FS is needed in this D

    [/QUOTE]

    agreed, totally

    and yes.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I agree that we should look for someone next to Wilfork. Question is, do you look at a kid like jenkins who is also a mammoth run stopper, or someone a bitquicker that can push the pocket and be disruptive? Asmuch as I love Wilfork, he's not exactly a threat to rush the passer from the interior.

    Also agree with upgrading nink...question..is Cunningham ready to progress more and be a nice bookend to jones? We may already have our de of the future to upgrade nink if folks think he can continue to progress. Thoughts?

    This might sound crazy and not economically feasible, but how much could we save if mankins was let loose? Could we get a 2nd rounder for him? I knowit sounds crazy but I really think we should consider it given his injuries and the potential to start cannon at lg. we could then draft another tackle with whatever we could get for mankins. Takers? This may also free up some cash to keep Wes which I believe we should retain him.

    spam the lone wolf and think Chung should not be retained unless it is done very cheaply. I think with another year in the system, Wilson would be better and Chung just makes too many mental gaffes for me. I like Gregory even less. Move one of our cb's to safety. I like the starting duo of Wilson and dowling, Dennard and McCourty start at cb, with Arrington in the slot.

    [/QUOTE]

    nice idea, though switch mcc for dowling to safey. mcc cannot play corner.

    i dotn see cunningham as improving enough to be a good starter.

    mankins has been hurt but hes the tough sob heart of our line.

    sure if we can get a penetrator who also can demand double teams and 2 gap (but chances of that?)

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I agree that we should look for someone next to Wilfork. Question is, do you look at a kid like jenkins who is also a mammoth run stopper, or someone a bitquicker that can push the pocket and be disruptive? Asmuch as I love Wilfork, he's not exactly a threat to rush the passer from the interior.

    Also agree with upgrading nink...question..is Cunningham ready to progress more and be a nice bookend to jones? We may already have our de of the future to upgrade nink if folks think he can continue to progress. Thoughts?

    This might sound crazy and not economically feasible, but how much could we save if mankins was let loose? Could we get a 2nd rounder for him? I knowit sounds crazy but I really think we should consider it given his injuries and the potential to start cannon at lg. we could then draft another tackle with whatever we could get for mankins. Takers? This may also free up some cash to keep Wes which I believe we should retain him.

    spam the lone wolf and think Chung should not be retained unless it is done very cheaply. I think with another year in the system, Wilson would be better and Chung just makes too many mental gaffes for me. I like Gregory even less. Move one of our cb's to safety. I like the starting duo of Wilson and dowling, Dennard and McCourty start at cb, with Arrington in the slot.

    [/QUOTE]


    I think you are underestimating what both Jenkins and Wilfork do to the passing game. Try they won't put up numbers similar to the pass rushing threats around the league but they can be just as disruptive to the passing game. Really a QB needs a clean pocket to step up into to make a strong accurate through. What both Jenkins and Wilfork do is push 2 OL straight backwards preventing the QB to step up into the pocket. This has a couple of effects that are very noticable:

    • Forces the QB towards the edge rushers namely Nink and Jones
    • A QB on the run away from the middle doesn't provide the best football protection leading to more fumbles
    • Not being up to step up into the pocket decreases accuracy drastically resulting in lower completion % and higher ints
    • Not being able to step up into the pocket decrease distance to which a QB can throw


    Those factors are huge in the passing game and one huge reason Jenkins numbers are deceiving. When looking at both Jenkins and Wilforks numbers you can clearly see a pattern when they are playing to their level. The DE's around them become more productive and the opposing QB's pass completion and QB rating decrease. In addition having to large walls also prevents QB scrambles and draw plays. This forces the ball outside where this team has really been built (Jones, and Nink can set an edge. Hightower and Mayo both know how to close the edge. Finally Arrington and McCourty are 2 of the best at containing the edge). Completely taking away a running game makes the game 1 dimensional and puts the QB even more at risk as OL's do suffer from fatigue if asked to keep 4 players in the center to deal with 2 big bodies every play. In addition comes the benefit that since you have 2 large bodies 3 OL can't possibly hope to contain both bodies and they then have to commit to keeping a TE in or RB in for the extra blocking.


    BTW watch Jenkins on film he is extrememly explosive of the snap. I saw one play where his large mitt almost nailed the ball of the exchange between the C and QB

     

    As for Cunningham I don't see him as a solution at all. If anything his current role shows he'll never be anything but a pass rushing specialist. Proof is in the plays the use him. If it's 3rd <3 to go he's not in their for risk of the draw. He's only placed in passing situations only and never used in rushing situations. If it's one thing you can say about Nink is he is extremely good at setting and controling an edge, not to mention his ability to snif out screens. I'm thinking if we were to replace Nink we'd replace what he does the best first and hope the person who replaces him has raw potential or already developed pass rushing moves

    [/QUOTE]

    "As for Cunningham I don't see him as a solution at all. If anything his current role shows he'll never be anything but a pass rushing specialist. Proof is in the plays the use him. If it's 3rd <3 to go he's not in their for risk of the draw. He's only placed in passing situations only and never used in rushing situations. If it's one thing you can say about Nink is he is extremely good at setting and controling an edge, not to mention his ability to snif out screens. I'm thinking if we were to replace Nink we'd replace what he does the best first and hope the person who replaces him has raw potential or already developed pass rushing moves"

    this above and a follow up to your take of how good tackles make it easy for des and lbs to cleanup the qb, are resoans why we need a counterpart to jones to go along with the wilfork cohort.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Jenkins is huge body and I can imagine what Wilfork and he could do together. I was just asking if we wanted someone a bit more quick twitch or if 2 nts playing together is the right formula. Just seems like a strangefront foureference guard to talent mix. 

    I don't agree on Cunningham.... His use today is a product of what he can do today and not necessarily representative of what he is capable of tomorrow. He added strength and speed, maybe he needs a bit more time in the systemtoo put it all together. I am not saying we know for sure he has oe hasn't reached full potential, just that the book on him I think is still open. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    there's an old saying that is rarely wrong. It goes, after 3 years you know what a player is. Now there are exceptions but for the most part what you see after 3 years is generally what you get and Cunningham just isn't a run defender nor do I think he ever will be. Besides he's not the best pass rusher either. He's better then a JAG but I would never want him to start for us

    [/QUOTE]

     how much better than a jag? ya on the rest

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Honestly I no longer look at the Pats as a 34 or 43 anymore. We run so many sub plays and exotic looks that it's impossible to tell just from the line up. We've seen them line up 4 and rush 1 letting 3 drop back and we've also seen 1 down and 5 rush. What I think BB wants the most is control of the center of the line. With Wilfork and Spikes he has 2/3rds of the control from one B/C gap to the other. Then he want's players who can play gap assignments and /setcontrol the edge. This is Nink specialty along with Mayo. Hightower and Jones are rooks but also seem adepth at it. Then further out from that he wants CB's who down the outside lanes and McCourty with Arrington a both adepth at that. It's almost funny that he built a D designed to contain and defeat and O style the Pats run. It's one reason he almost never blitzes is because he wants to force pressure without giving up the man advantage nor control over the line. If you think about it the players he has give him the most flexibility.

    Hightower can line up at ILB, OLB, or as a DE with his hand down. Cunningham as a OLB/DE/DT. Wilfork as a NT/DT/DE. Mayo as a ILB/OLB, Wilson as a SS/FS/LB. Deadrick as a DT/DE. Jones as a OLB/DE. If you toss in anothe DT/DE type and a larger SS/LB type and B could have a field day. IMO they are 1 DL and 1 DB to make this D something really special and where those players fit is just a matter of personal philsophy. Personally I like inside pressure forcing the QB into your play makers hands on the DL and for the DB I like quicker FS's who can make plays on the ball in a hurry (Reed type)

    [/QUOTE]

    " IMO they are 1 DL and 1 DB to make this D something really special and where those players fit is just a matter of personal philsophy. Personally I like inside pressure forcing the QB into your play makers hands on the DL and for the DB I like quicker FS's who can make plays on the ball in a hurry (Reed type)"

    the change of this i woudl add both a dt and de, also add a cb who is good (not just one who can shut down the run), and then if more bullets or in fa, a cover safety. then i agree you have a dominant def.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to rameakap's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Yes they run a lot of exotic stuff and attempt to confuse and have many players who can move all over...

    But to me it just boils down to the line, more than the LB's. Cunningham and Nink are better OLB's than DE's, this is pretty obvious. Nink was a 5th rd pick based on his career as a 6'2" 260 DE in college. Cunningham was 2nd-3rd rd talent as a OLB convert and looked good there in '10 before bulking up a bit and falling off the face as they tried to make him a DE again in '11. But only rated as a 4th-5th rd talent as a 6'3" 255 DE, so that should have been well known.

    It is fine not to label it a 4-3 or a 3-4 specifically, and with the guys we have, specifically Jones, Hightower, Mayo and Wilfork, it really isn't.

    But then what type of player should we draft? I guess the Pats should just take the best available lineman then? Figure out the formations after, just make sure they nail the pick, get the talent, not be cute, and go from there?

    But clearly we have enough LB's except for maybe a speedster inside guy.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I hate this new quoting system btw

     

    I don't think Nink is a better OLB. It's funny how everyone looks at DE and assumes they have to be pass rushers. That's essentially what Madden and fantasy football has done to our minds. Though pass rushing is great a key aspect that a lot of people over look is control an edge. This is where Nink shines. He is great in the run game and against screens. Think about how many times in the last 5 weeks a team has gained more the 2+ yards running sweeps to Nink's edge or even how many times a team even attempted a screen on his side. It just doesn't happen. But, those are things that don't show up in stats so no one ever pays attention to them. If you want a perfect example look at Anderson. When Anderson had to start for us as DE teams ran all over him. When we played Buf notice how often we ran it right at Anderson? Anderson was giving up huge chunks on the ground and against screens. The OL had their way with him. Now Cunningham is exactly like Anderson without the pass rushing moves. Both are best used as pass rushing specialists as either 43 DE's or 34 OLB's in pass situations but I wouldn't want either as starters. Nink however, is to slow to be a 34 OLB and would suffer both trying to get to the QB and in pass protection. Nink's best role is an edge setting 43 DE

    For the draft if you are looking at interior rushers you want a big almost NT sized guy. That's because we have smaller DE's so having larger interior guys forces the opposing O to keep 4 people inside giving you at least one 1v1 on the edge. For the outside you want taller lanky guys to bat down balls but here's the trick. Jones is your pass rushing specialist you want someone who and set and control an edge on the other side first and foremost. By then you shut down the run on 3/4 of the field and force it towards one sideline. That's where you can place Mayo or Hightower who both know how to contain. Of course you hope they can drop back into coverage too and have some pass rushing ability but their main job should be controling the edge (one reason BB loves Nink so much and let Anderson go and won't give the job to Cunningham). It's all about forcing the opposing O to tunnel 1 aspect of the game to the direction you want it to go. That's one thing the Giants have going for them in their front 4. They have 2 DE's that can both set the edge and get to the passer. It's what makes them so dangerous, because you can't run or pass on those edges.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Homecheese. Show Homecheese's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    South Carolina vs LSU, ND vs Stanford, Texas vs Oklahoma and all on at diffrent times!

    Who are all you guys picking?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to rameakap's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Honestly I no longer look at the Pats as a 34 or 43 anymore. We run so many sub plays and exotic looks that it's impossible to tell just from the line up. We've seen them line up 4 and rush 1 letting 3 drop back and we've also seen 1 down and 5 rush. What I think BB wants the most is control of the center of the line. With Wilfork and Spikes he has 2/3rds of the control from one B/C gap to the other. Then he want's players who can play gap assignments and /setcontrol the edge. This is Nink specialty along with Mayo. Hightower and Jones are rooks but also seem adepth at it. Then further out from that he wants CB's who down the outside lanes and McCourty with Arrington a both adepth at that. It's almost funny that he built a D designed to contain and defeat and O style the Pats run. It's one reason he almost never blitzes is because he wants to force pressure without giving up the man advantage nor control over the line. If you think about it the players he has give him the most flexibility.

    Hightower can line up at ILB, OLB, or as a DE with his hand down. Cunningham as a OLB/DE/DT. Wilfork as a NT/DT/DE. Mayo as a ILB/OLB, Wilson as a SS/FS/LB. Deadrick as a DT/DE. Jones as a OLB/DE. If you toss in anothe DT/DE type and a larger SS/LB type and B could have a field day. IMO they are 1 DL and 1 DB to make this D something really special and where those players fit is just a matter of personal philsophy. Personally I like inside pressure forcing the QB into your play makers hands on the DL and for the DB I like quicker FS's who can make plays on the ball in a hurry (Reed type)

    [/QUOTE]


    Yes they run a lot of exotic stuff and attempt to confuse and have many players who can move all over...

    But to me it just boils down to the line, more than the LB's. Cunningham and Nink are better OLB's than DE's, this is pretty obvious. Nink was a 5th rd pick based on his career as a 6'2" 260 DE in college. Cunningham was 2nd-3rd rd talent as a OLB convert and looked good there in '10 before bulking up a bit and falling off the face as they tried to make him a DE again in '11. But only rated as a 4th-5th rd talent as a 6'3" 255 DE, so that should have been well known.

    It is fine not to label it a 4-3 or a 3-4 specifically, and with the guys we have, specifically Jones, Hightower, Mayo and Wilfork, it really isn't.

    But then what type of player should we draft? I guess the Pats should just take the best available lineman then? Figure out the formations after, just make sure they nail the pick, get the talent, not be cute, and go from there?

    But clearly we have enough LB's except for maybe a speedster inside guy.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think, as it pertains to the draft, that BB still looks for size/length/versatility when it comes to front 7 players... it can certainly vary when it comes to FA acquisitions, but the do seem to target size and versatility in the draft, which I think will continue.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to bredbru's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bredbru's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bredbru's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    by the way, see the rankings today?

    ohio state, kansas state, nd are all better than lsu? try playing them.

    in fact wv mgiht have a problem.

    i think they underrank how good florida is/was.

    on the other hand, south car. and florida play one another and regardles who wins are probably still both one of teh best 4 teams in teh country.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You can't have a (1) loss team ahead of (3) undefeated teams.

    LSU has the same issues as ND... a BCS Championship level defense with an unproven/inconsistent offense.  ND in particular is 2nd in the nation in scoring defense (behind only Alabama) and hasn't given up a TD in any of the last (3) games vs. Michigan St/Michigan/Miami, the first two were ranked at the time and Miami just came off of a ACC record passing performance vs. NC St the week before... granted there was some luck involved in the Miami game as one of their WR's dropp two potential TD catches in their first drive... but did little after.

    [/QUOTE]

    "You can't have a (1) loss team ahead of (3) undefeated teams"

    absoluitley disagree with this. you are ranking the best team. # of losses is not the point.

    i see nd has improved

    like to see them play lsu first or s carolina, florida, etc before putting them ahead of lsu.

    peace bro

    [/QUOTE]

    And ND is one of the best teams, as have been KSU and WVU.  All three have flaws as does LSU, but you can't just keep them ahead of teams based solely on SEC bias... they lost to a good football and should drop as a result. 

    [/QUOTE]


    what you are claling sec bias (yes i am a sec and florida teams fan) i call seeing who would be better (no different than an nfl power rnaking) if they played against each other. i do it in the nfl without bias as well. and if i was an oregon fan i would sayt the same thing. 

    nothing wrong if we differ. can we agree on that?

    [/QUOTE]

    There is a national SEC bias in general, I'm guilty in a sense as I say it all the time... best conference in America, I just dont believe rankings should be skewed towards SEC teams based on reputation... if you lose, you drop.  I also haven't seen anything from LSU this year that would tell me that they'd definitely beat ND/WVU or KSU... with that being said, we'll certainly learn more about his team over the next month as they'll play (4) teams currently ranked (South Carolina, Tex A&M, Bama & MSU) including (2) in the current top 4.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Homecheese's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    South Carolina vs LSU, ND vs Stanford, Texas vs Oklahoma and all on at diffrent times!

    Who are all you guys picking?

    [/QUOTE]


    SC

    ND

    TX

    Nice to see them splitting up the good matchups a bit!

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to rameakap's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Yes they run a lot of exotic stuff and attempt to confuse and have many players who can move all over...

    But to me it just boils down to the line, more than the LB's. Cunningham and Nink are better OLB's than DE's, this is pretty obvious. Nink was a 5th rd pick based on his career as a 6'2" 260 DE in college. Cunningham was 2nd-3rd rd talent as a OLB convert and looked good there in '10 before bulking up a bit and falling off the face as they tried to make him a DE again in '11. But only rated as a 4th-5th rd talent as a 6'3" 255 DE, so that should have been well known.

    It is fine not to label it a 4-3 or a 3-4 specifically, and with the guys we have, specifically Jones, Hightower, Mayo and Wilfork, it really isn't.

    But then what type of player should we draft? I guess the Pats should just take the best available lineman then? Figure out the formations after, just make sure they nail the pick, get the talent, not be cute, and go from there?

    But clearly we have enough LB's except for maybe a speedster inside guy.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I hate this new quoting system btw

     

    I don't think Nink is a better OLB. It's funny how everyone looks at DE and assumes they have to be pass rushers. That's essentially what Madden and fantasy football has done to our minds. Though pass rushing is great a key aspect that a lot of people over look is control an edge. This is where Nink shines. He is great in the run game and against screens. Think about how many times in the last 5 weeks a team has gained more the 2+ yards running sweeps to Nink's edge or even how many times a team even attempted a screen on his side. It just doesn't happen. But, those are things that don't show up in stats so no one ever pays attention to them. If you want a perfect example look at Anderson. When Anderson had to start for us as DE teams ran all over him. When we played Buf notice how often we ran it right at Anderson? Anderson was giving up huge chunks on the ground and against screens. The OL had their way with him. Now Cunningham is exactly like Anderson without the pass rushing moves. Both are best used as pass rushing specialists as either 43 DE's or 34 OLB's in pass situations but I wouldn't want either as starters. Nink however, is to slow to be a 34 OLB and would suffer both trying to get to the QB and in pass protection. Nink's best role is an edge setting 43 DE

    For the draft if you are looking at interior rushers you want a big almost NT sized guy. That's because we have smaller DE's so having larger interior guys forces the opposing O to keep 4 people inside giving you at least one 1v1 on the edge. For the outside you want taller lanky guys to bat down balls but here's the trick. Jones is your pass rushing specialist you want someone who and set and control an edge on the other side first and foremost. By then you shut down the run on 3/4 of the field and force it towards one sideline. That's where you can place Mayo or Hightower who both know how to contain. Of course you hope they can drop back into coverage too and have some pass rushing ability but their main job should be controling the edge (one reason BB loves Nink so much and let Anderson go and won't give the job to Cunningham). It's all about forcing the opposing O to tunnel 1 aspect of the game to the direction you want it to go. That's one thing the Giants have going for them in their front 4. They have 2 DE's that can both set the edge and get to the passer. It's what makes them so dangerous, because you can't run or pass on those edges.

    [/QUOTE]

    I hate is as well, SO MUCH, it is an absolute joke that BDC subjects us to this format that a high school tech class could do a better job at

    I like copying and pasting just the comment I want to respond to, with the posters name first, and then putting my reponses in bold, as I'll do below...

     

     

     

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