Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Lets look @ last years interior.

    The interior for this comparison is;
    3 Down linemen
    2 Middle bkr's
    1 free safety

    Last year

    Starting Dl
    -Green 6'3 280 (light) (80% healthy) missed 4 games, 3rd rnd pick 04
    -Wilfork 6'2.5 350 (beast) 100% missed 1 game 21st overall 04
    -Warren 6'5 300 (fragile) (80% healthy) missed 4 games, 13th overall 03

    MLB
    -Mayo 6'2 240 (75%) missed 4 games, hyperextension of the mcl, 10th overall 08
    -Guyton 6'3 245 (miss placed in 3-4) great in nickel, UDRFA 08

    FS
    -McGowan, Over aggressive, great against TE's week in the slot U Maine 06

    This year;

    DL
    -Wright UDRFA 06, Typical 3-4 end, long strong 6'6 290 (Upgrade)
    -Wilfork (Paid) has to prove he is no Haynesworth...
    -Warren 3rd over all 01 6'3 330 much bigger than Green and TY
    ---- Also, he is a Oakland FA, and we are 50/50 on there FA's
    ---- I think he is an Upgrade on a one year deal with something to prove

    MLB
    -Mayo @ 100%
    -Spikes @ 100% (based on Saints game he is a HUGE upgrade on 1st 2nd and 4 and short

    FS
    - Chung @ 100% with experience and SWAG

    Summary;
    -Up the middle we are better now than we have been since 2004, 2005
    -We are stout er @ the piont of attack as this line is collectively averaging more BEAF!
    -Our Depth is Great with Lewis, Brace, Pryor and Deaderick (under rated) is better than it was with Green Wright and Titus Adams or Le Kevin Smith.
    -We have a goup of LB's for every situation, 3 and long, fourth and short, nickel, 43, 52 and the 34 base pkg.
    -Burgess has another year in the system
    -Cunningham is a beast @ 6'3 260 he is a very big man
    - our avergae age on DE went from 33 to 26
    - our average 40 went way down, visibly stronger and faster

    What did we lose? Experience and Savviness not really when you compare last year to this year we may have increased our savviness with McCourty and Spikes BUT we are still lacking experience.

    I am not worried about this defense handling the run, or the pass, the pass rush is still up in the air though.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    We are worse off without the Warren of 2006.  It would be sweet if we got that guy back.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Warren bench-pressed something way over 500 pounds in college.  He had long arms to shed blockers and to occasionally bat passes up in the air.  He was well worth a #13 pick at the time.

    Yes, lately he has been wearing down.  He's no longer that same piece of heavy construction equipment.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    The question is whether we're any better.  Last year's line wasn't all that great. I don't see how losing Warren makes us any better.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    If we were talking 05,06 when Warren should have been an All Pro, i aggree this comparison does not work.

    The basis of the conversation is, are we stronger where we were once weak?

    Yes, our strength up the middle against the run is a lot better than it has been in a long time.

    PK, I aggree Seymour and Warren had all the measurable you needed in the 34, length @ plus 6'6, 6'7, weight @ 300 plus, speed was below 5.0 for both in there respective combines, reach, strength and leverage...

    I will say we could get the two best 3-4 DE's available in a long time IN THE SAME DRAFT next year...

    Cameron Heyward 6'5 but needs some beef,
    Greg Romeous 6'5 needs beef as well but much faster than Warren and Big Sey

    Either way this position is what it is and we'll have to hold our chips and bank on the 2011 draft.

    Bigger OLB hybrids are very week in this draft class and BC's Herzlich has the best size for our system.

    All though i think Markuxs White @ FSU has the speed and range to convert, along with Cliff Mathews of SC...

    Nonetheless I cannot see a hybrid in the first round so going for Romeous and Heyward is FINE by me.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Answer

    G Warren is better @ 100% than Ty Warren @ 80% with a nagging injury.

    Also, the main point of emphasis is our strength up the middle as a collective unit

    I think we are better this year, and contrary to popular belief we have more depth with vets like Warren and Lewis
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    It hurts our depth.

    I saw on the tohellevision the other night that Warren's injury goes back a few years and the surgery should return him to 100% for next year.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Answer. Yes. But not as bad as people think. The question is simple. Would you prefer to have him or not have him. Obviously his loss hurts the team. I just think given his injuries and tendency to be more of a space eater than playmaker lately, it is more a shot to the depth than the sum talent of the starting line.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    "G Warren is better @ 100% than Ty Warren @ 80% with a nagging injury."

    That really is the point. So yeah, G. Warren for T. Warren will likely end up almost a wash, so adding D. Lewis to the mix,who should be healthier and slightly more productive than a declining J. Green, makes this unit a touch deeper than last season. All in all, having Ty here would be sweet, but it isn't like Ne just lost Meriweather, Fork, or Mayo.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Z hit the nail on the head, everythin behind those men is better too, so hopfully we can reduce our yards per game on the ground dramtically... and prevent another Ray Rice incident

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mannyortez3424. Show mannyortez3424's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]"G Warren is better @ 100% than Ty Warren @ 80% with a nagging injury." That really is the point. So yeah, G. Warren for T. Warren will likely end up almost a wash, so adding D. Lewis to the mix,who should be healthier and slightly more productive than a declining J. Green, makes this unit a touch deeper than last season. All in all, having Ty here would be sweet, but it isn't like Ne just lost Meriweather, Fork, or Mayo.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    True...I could see Bill adding a guy if only for depth now that Ty is out...Ogunleye maybe?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]We are worse off without the Warren of 2006.  It would be sweet if we got that guy back.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    My sentiments exactly. We haven't seen that guy in a while. If we continue to tackle like we did the other night I'm not worried. Mike Wright has always been good when he's filled in.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    He's a decent player when healthy, reduces our depth......
    Who's left for pass rush?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]He's a decent player when healthy, reduces our depth...... Who's left for pass rush?
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE]

    Good question. I have a feeling we're going to count on our Linebackers and blitzing backs for the Pass rush.  Warren seemed to be hurt half the time anyway. Even when he played you'd see his name on the injury report every week. There is still time to pick somebody up also and I hope they do.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    I may be wrong but Gerard Warren and Damione Lewis were drafted more for there pass rushing skills than Ty was and they were draft before him in there respective drafts.

    I think the lose of TY may make us susceptible to larger passing lanes because we no longer have the length and reach of TY at that outside position.

    BB picked Sey, Warren, Crabel and signed AD for there skills as well as there length........... He believes there height and reach makes it tougher for opposing QB's to see passing lanes.

    Considering that this is a game of inches, 5 guys across the front line averaging 6'5 is better than 5 guys who average 6'2 & have less spead.

    Good theory but he has not been able to employ a defense that has those physical attributes across the front line IN full... he has only partly made this puzzel and may have weakened the team trying too hard in the past.

    I think he needs to find great value, instincts and experience out of these draft picks & FA's & stop looking at one or two physical prowess like length and speed more often than he should.

    Length and Speed are nice but they mean nothing if the player cannot use those to his advantage... i.e. Gholston!

    Lebeau is one 34 coordinator who has abandoned that philosophical approach as he has gone with stockier edge setters in the past four years, becasue he takes what is availble or he trains them like he did with Harrison.

    Part of me thinks the idea that BB had two years ago makes perfect sense but when he tries to hard to fill roles it is tougher to rebuild if the projects do not pan out...

    He called Crabel a situational pass rusher... a 3rd down pass rush specialist because of his extraordinary length.

    He also drafted smaller, shiftier DB's because there short shuttles and change of direction was better than longer, rangier players like Rogers-Cromartie.

    Point is i agree in the system but sometimes you get guys like Spikes, Chung, Edleman, Arrington, Vollmer... So don't over look the GEMS while fulfilling dreams.....

    Those guys are just football players period... I would rather have 11 football players than 22 defenders with uncanny measurables for every situation... god forbid one goes down.... you then need to employ a situation edge setter who cannot rush well as a rushing specialist...

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Different point but do you think BB is trying to create an answer for every situation within the game?

    In doing so do you think this theory also helps the organization because there players each work hard at there specialization making them one dimensional to other teams with different philosophies?
     
    Because that would also hamper there market value making it easier for the patriots to retain them long term...

    Just a thought

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

       The problem has more to do with a leadership void in this extremely young defense. Ty Warren started 92 of a possible 105 games since 2003. He wears 2 rings and has intangibles other then just stopping the run. He has been a staple on this line. This puts more pressure on Warren G and Mike Wright to stay healthy and produce. Leadership void was the scapegoat last year and this does nothing to help fill that hole.

        With that said I agree about his loss being more important to depth to a certain degree. Warren was double teamed more last year then ever before. Seymour was gone and Warren with his 7.5 sacks in 07 was the focal point on that line. Warren is no Seymour in terms of shedding the 2x team and still getting pressure on the QB. Now the depth part comes in to play because we don't know if Warren G/Lewis can give us quality minutes for a SB run at this point in their careers. Now if either of them go down the young guys have pressure to perform.

        Anyway no doubt we are worst off without him. As Z said would you rather have him or not have him?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Last year we traded Seymour and were missing a D tackle to play the 3/4, we ended up with a defense where Wilfork and Warren were the only legit starters on the team.  This year we signed Gerrard Warren, we were looking pretty good starterwise and now Warren goes down...  so now your here asking if we're any worse off when the answer is an obvious "yes."  And don't say Damoine Lewis because he is an undersized situational pass rusher much like Wright and Pryor...

    Not saying it won't all work out in the end, but for us to create any push up front and open up pass rushers we are now relying on Brace, Deadrick or Darryl Richard to become a starter.  And I'm not saying they won't work out, I like the look of Deadrick, but the odds of finding a starting tackle/end in the later rounds of the draft are a longshot.  We didn't succesively exhaust #1 draft picks on Seymour, Warren and Wilfork because these guys are easy to replace or found hanging around on draft day.

    We now have a gaping hole in our defensive front and we're relying on rookies to fill that hole... that's a problem.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]Lets look @ last years interior. The interior for this comparison is; 3 Down linemen 2 Middle bkr's 1 free safety Last year Starting Dl -Green 6'3 280 (light) (80% healthy) missed 4 games, 3rd rnd pick 04 -Wilfork 6'2.5 350 (beast) 100% missed 1 game 21st overall 04 -Warren 6'5 300 (fragile) (80% healthy) missed 4 games, 13th overall 03 MLB -Mayo 6'2 240 (75%) missed 4 games, hyperextension of the mcl, 10th overall 08 -Guyton 6'3 245 (miss placed in 3-4) great in nickel, UDRFA 08 FS -McGowan, Over aggressive, great against TE's week in the slot U Maine 06 This year; DL -Wright UDRFA 06, Typical 3-4 end, long strong 6'6 290 (Upgrade) -Wilfork (Paid) has to prove he is no Haynesworth... -Warren 3rd over all 01 6'3 330 much bigger than Green and TY ---- Also, he is a Oakland FA, and we are 50/50 on there FA's ---- I think he is an Upgrade on a one year deal with something to prove MLB -Mayo @ 100% -Spikes @ 100% (based on Saints game he is a HUGE upgrade on 1st 2nd and 4 and short FS - Chung @ 100% with experience and SWAG Summary; -Up the middle we are better now than we have been since 2004, 2005 -We are stout er @ the piont of attack as this line is collectively averaging more BEAF! -Our Depth is Great with Lewis, Brace, Pryor and Deaderick (under rated) is better than it was with Green Wright and Titus Adams or Le Kevin Smith. -We have a goup of LB's for every situation, 3 and long, fourth and short, nickel, 43, 52 and the 34 base pkg. -Burgess has another year in the system -Cunningham is a beast @ 6'3 260 he is a very big man - our avergae age on DE went from 33 to 26 - our average 40 went way down, visibly stronger and faster What did we lose? Experience and Savviness not really when you compare last year to this year we may have increased our savviness with McCourty and Spikes BUT we are still lacking experience. I am not worried about this defense handling the run, or the pass, the pass rush is still up in the air though.
    Posted by tagandtrade[/QUOTE]

    The other 10 guys on defense are irrelevant. The question is who do we replace warren with? The answer is a career backup. If the backup were a better player, he'd be starting, so yes, we are worse off without warren.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TroyBrown80. Show TroyBrown80's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    yes, we are worse off without him.  it's a 16 game season, he was and excellent player, and having him was nice.  Are we completely lost without him?  No.  But it was nice to have him.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Last year Seymour was pretty much a nonfactor.  They got rid of him at the right time and probably at a very good price.

    I agree Ty Warren of 2009 is better, but not tremendously so, than is Gerrard Warren today.  We'd rather have Ty to be sure, but it's been a while since he's been dominant. 


    Overall I think the D-Line did ok in 2009.  The LB corp and pass rush (a function of both) were weak.  Spikes and a healthy Mayo help the LBs considerably.  As does maturity and cohesion help the secondary.

    The defense is a work in progress, but I think deeper, more cohesive, and more apt headed the right direction than was 2009's.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mountainmonkey. Show mountainmonkey's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    Brace yourself...after that big guy does a half million miles on the training bike and passes the physical, he'll fit that D-line in full waddle and we'll all be saying...Ty Who?....
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]Last year Seymour was pretty much a nonfactor.  They got rid of him at the right time and probably at a very good price.  Overall I think the D-Line did ok in 2009.  The LB corp and pass rush (a function of both) were weak.
    Posted by croc[/QUOTE]

    The pass rush was weak because we were missing a defensive tackle.  In the 3/4 defense three D tackles typically match up and occupy 5 offensive linemen which allows pass rushers to squirt through.  Take away one piece of the foundation and the house of cards falls apart. 

    We ran a 2/4/5 defense nearly all season in 2009 and it was weak, BB obviously agreed because he went out and got Gerrard Warren who happens to be Seymour's age but cheaper, after playing on some real dogs he now wants to play for a winner...

    As far as Seymour goes you can't possibly judge his performance on the worst team in the league, the island of lost players.  He still demands two blockers and game planning, I can't blame him for wanting to be paid, he already has 3 rings and nothing to prove...

    I agree the linebackers will be substantially better, mainly because of the infusion of talent... primarily Spikes and McKenzie.  Hopefully one of these lazy overeaters Brace or Deadrick will shape up and perform but it's a big question mark. 
       
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsareNumberone. Show PatsareNumberone's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is : The pass rush was weak because we were missing a defensive tackle.  In the 3/4 defense three D tackles typically match up and occupy 5 offensive linemen which allows pass rushers to squirt through.  Take away one piece of the foundation and the house of cards falls apart.  We ran a 2/4/5 defense nearly all season in 2009 and it was weak, BB obviously agreed because he went out and got Gerrard Warren who happens to be Seymour's age but cheaper, after playing on some real dogs he now wants to play for a winner... As far as Seymour goes you can't possibly judge his performance on the worst team in the league, the island of lost players.  He still demands two blockers and game planning, I can't blame him for wanting to be paid, he already has 3 rings and nothing to prove... I agree the linebackers will be substantially better, mainly because of the infusion of talent... primarily Spikes and McKenzie.  Hopefully one of these lazy overeaters Brace or Deadrick will shape up and perform but it's a big question mark.     
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    Stupid Post.. You're really embarrassing yourself and should quit posting here.
    Everything you said was completely ludicrous and Croc was correct. Why don't you buy a book on football and try to learn the game before the season starts. Then comeback and try posting again.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from tagandtrade. Show tagandtrade's posts

    Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is

    In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are we really worse off with out him... Warren that is : Stupid Post.. You're really embarrassing yourself and should quit posting here. Everything you said was completely ludicrous and Croc was correct. Why don't you buy a book on football and try to learn the game before the season starts. Then comeback and try posting again.
    Posted by PatsareNumberone[/QUOTE]


    Croc was right?

    O yeah he was... after all he agreed with me, you should read the preface to my argument before you pass judgement.

    this is a comparison of the last two years we are not analysing Warren tenure we are just basing this on what he has done lately and that is not much.

    I actually played football at all levels except for pro and received accolades in all so I can't really complain when a pencil pushing geek who spends way too much time on the internet tries to take me down a notch.

    Read all the post before you comment again please!

     

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