Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    Its one thing to have everyone model their teams success after your orginaztion but its another when those teams outperform you in the playoffs and do a better job on the field with the same formula.

    Yes, B-More as well wants to be like us, but they whooped us in the playoffs and the last time we were on the field, the Jets ruined our season and had Brady saying he will never forget how bad he felt, yet you continue to taunt Jets fan as if WE won the game...Wake Up Russ. stop throwing out meaningless stats and rebuilding and admit the Jets are on our tail and WE need to prove we can win in the playoffs..say what you want about how they did it, on the road, etc...but to me it makes it more impressive...They went to AFCCG playing on the road all winter 2 years ago,,,w/ a rookie qb, while we were at home and almost same thing last year
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans : Umm, would this be because I just stated you sound a lot like Communist Contrarian? Hmm.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

         Well...I do find that you comparing me to CC is insulting...LOL!!!

         Rusty, you do make some good points in your posts...and I do find many of them to be of interest. But...the personal attacks and insults need to be scaled down.

         I have had my disagreements with Babe Parilli...but he's not a bad guy...and he's not a troll. McCheaters and UD6, a/k/a "The Dog(gggg) are examples of trolls. 
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    I still have yet to see ANYONE come up with a team/coach that has been a better organization than the Pats in the last DECADE??? Why is it that nobody can come up with that info?

    We continue to win year after year...so I don't care where the players come from. If believing in my team after this incredible run which seems to be better than ANY OTHER TEAM in the last decade makes me a Kool-aid drinker....pass the pitcher my way cuz I'm thirsty!!
     
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    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans : So, what was the "insult" or "childish" name I called you?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

         Never mind, Rusty. 
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]I still have yet to see ANYONE come up with a team/coach that has been a better organization than the Pats in the last DECADE??? Why is it that nobody can come up with that info? We continue to win year after year...so I don't care where the players come from. If believing in my team after this incredible run which seems to be better than ANY OTHER TEAM in the last decade makes me a Kool-aid drinker....pass the pitcher my way cuz I'm thirsty!!
    Posted by tanbass[/QUOTE]

         Nobody is disputing that the Pats have been the Team of the Decade, from 2001-2010. The debate lies over whether they'll continue to have success in this new decade, 2011-2020...and why the Patriots haven't won a playoff game since 2008.
          
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans :      Nobody is disputing that the Pats have been the Team of the Decade, from 2001-2010. The debate lies over whether they'll continue to have success in this new decade, 2011-2020...and why the Patriots haven't won a playoff game since 2008.       
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Nail on the head.

    Facts;
    1. NE is the team of the past decade
    2. NE always puts a competitive product on the field, always challenging to make the playoffs and get to the big dance.
    3. BB is a master of managing his team, roster, FA, etc. based on the salary cap.
    4. Pats have not won a playoff game since the loss to the Jints in the SB.

    Questions;
    1. How do we define success? Winning record, winning the division, winning a playoff game, winning the SB?....Any takers? because to me this is the big question and 1 point of contention. I don't think those of us who criticize do so with belief that we should be winning the SB every year. that is downright crazy. However, what good is a 14-2 record if you can't win a playoff game?

    2. Why haven't the Pats won a playoff game since 2007/08 season? And a SB since 2005? 

    3. Have we solved the problem(s) via the 2010, 2011 drafts and FA to make us successful in the postseason? Have we done enough to to expect a different outcome this year?

    Lets talk...
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]I still have yet to see ANYONE come up with a team/coach that has been a better organization than the Pats in the last DECADE??? Why is it that nobody can come up with that info? We continue to win year after year...so I don't care where the players come from. If believing in my team after this incredible run which seems to be better than ANY OTHER TEAM in the last decade makes me a Kool-aid drinker....pass the pitcher my way cuz I'm thirsty!!
    Posted by tanbass[/QUOTE]

    What's the point?...I don't think you'll find anyone on this board that will argue with the Pats being the best run organization in football. To me it's not even a contest. The question is how does the best organization in football, with a sure fire HOF coach and QB not win a playoff game in 4 years and a SB in 6/7?

    Again, it depends how you define "winning". We sh!t all over the Jests because they think beating us post season in the playoffs is their SB victory. But do we also think going 14-2 is our SB victory? I don't care if we go 16-0, the facts are the facts, you play for the post season only. I understand any team can win on any given day. What has concerned me is the Pats play a stellar regular season and when post season comes, they tend to look/play like a different team, not a 14-2 team.
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]I still have yet to see ANYONE come up with a team/coach that has been a better organization than the Pats in the last DECADE??? Why is it that nobody can come up with that info? We continue to win year after year...so I don't care where the players come from. If believing in my team after this incredible run which seems to be better than ANY OTHER TEAM in the last decade makes me a Kool-aid drinker....pass the pitcher my way cuz I'm thirsty!!
    Posted by tanbass[/QUOTE]
    If you are going with wins and not super bowls, while I also give the edge to the Pats, is it fair to say that maybe the Colts have been better? Steelers maybe on the same level as the Pats? And the Eagles maybe a notch below? All great teams. All great coaching (pre Caldwell).
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]No, WE DON"T. That's the difference, dude. Who is beating their chests in an overchieving rebuilding year at 14-2? No one. You take it as experience, great growth and move on. That's exactly the difference between Pats fans and  Jets fans. We're not dumb. Why would it concern you knowing how young that team was last year?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I get it Russ. I'll take the last 4 years as experience, waiting for our youngsters to develop and get us to a point where we are good enough to go all the way. Maybe this is the year that happens.
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans : 2. Are you serious with this question??? 1. 2005 ( loss in Denver, tough place to play, Dillon on one foot, Faulk as lead back, poor execution, loss of Weis and Crennel as coordinators). Any questions there? 2. 2006 - Branch holds out, bagjob in Indy. Questions? 3. 2007 - Won't even bother. 4. 2008 - Brady down. 5. 2009 - BAd locker room, Harrison, Bruschi, Seymour and Vrable ALL GONE. Do I need to repeat those names? Welker hurt before playoff game.  Moss with separated shoulder.   One dimensional spread offense with Sam Aiken and Edelman as best WR options. 2010 - 14-2, great draft, clear learning year for the 2009 and 2010 draft picks into a lockout. Young team, BYe week hurt them, lost a playoff game. This is why.  Why do some people act like this rocket science?  75% of NFL teams, if not a higher number, would LOVE to have been in NE's position when they weren't at their strongest.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I get it Russ. There are reasons, and you list all valid points. I'll return my questioning to the draft then because as you point a bunch of good players leaving at the same or similar time, I think you have to consider the drafts we've had up until 2010 as not doing a good job filling the vacant roster spots vacated by those vets. Now I know a rookie or 2nd year player is not goinng to be all world, but if we were better in the scouting dept, perhaps that drop off is minimal.

    For me, if you want to draw a parallel, look at how companies analyze the way they invest their capital...they use a metric called ROIC...return on invested capital. If you take the draft as a seperate entity, the ROIC from our drafts since 2006 have been poor, less 2010/11. That means something happened in the analysis of the expected return on that capital (draft picks), or more precisely, someone is not doing a very good job scouting talent and translating that to how the talent will perform in our system.

    Now we can say, "what about other teams"..."The Pats do it better than anyone else"..."Name me a team that has had better drafts.."...etc...and those are good points, but we are missing a key fact here. The fact that we've had more draft choices in rounds 1-3 than anyone else since 2006. So, it's a ratio thing...busts to starters/contributors. This is where I would like to compare.
    Also, understanding that we are the best team in football and run the best organization, one could come to the conclusion that we should also be drafting better than anyone else. I don't see this the case except for 10/11 drafts, and 11 is still TBD.

    the 06-09 drafts set us back a bit I believe. I don't want to say they are the main cause for our not winning post season as you have listed many challenges above, but the fallout from those is that we have had to use future draft picks to fill holes vacated by busts, and plug in FA's where we should have been possibly drafting core players. We are lucky to have got Al, Ellis, Carter, etc., but what happens if we are 50% more successful in 06-09 drafts. Do we need them as 1-2 year rentals? To me this becomes a continuity issue. Like having to plug in new WRs every year to learn a complex system. We finally have some continuity with Welker, Gronk, Hernandez.
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    Am I happy about the last two years playoffs going one & done? Of course not!! Will I go to my grave with a slight pain down deep about 2007? With out a doubt!! My point is that a handful of posters here seem to come off almost like Felger....meaning all they see is the "doom & gloom".

    Sure we haven't had a title in a few years, and I want to see it happen again while we still have Brady. But these last few years have been far from complete failures. We all wanted better results in the post season. I understand people concerns over issues & needs each year, but there is a way to voice concern and then there is the "sky is falling" rants that make Felger look positive.

    I trust Bill....I trust Brady....I trust this team to have a legit shot each year to go to the big dance.....if that makes me a Koolaid drinker...I'm good with that.
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans : Nail on the head. Facts; 1. NE is the team of the past decade 2. NE always puts a competitive product on the field, always challenging to make the playoffs and get to the big dance. 3. BB is a master of managing his team, roster, FA, etc. based on the salary cap. 4. Pats have not won a playoff game since the loss to the Jints in the SB. Questions; 1. How do we define success? Winning record, winning the division, winning a playoff game, winning the SB?....Any takers? because to me this is the big question and 1 point of contention. I don't think those of us who criticize do so with belief that we should be winning the SB every year. that is downright crazy. However, what good is a 14-2 record if you can't win a playoff game?
     
    RESPONSE: Brady, BB, and the success of this great franchise has raised the bar for what is considered to be a successful season...to the point where success is defined by winning championships.   

    2. Why haven't the Pats won a playoff game since 2007/08 season? And a SB since 2005?

    RESPONSE: The team got old...especially of the defensive side of the ball. In the 2006 season, but for biased officiating calculated to gift-wrap a championship for the Manning led Colts, the Pats would have won the SB that year. In 2007, the Pats' magical season was derailed in the SB by distracting media hacks (spygate), a good, determined NY Giants team, and some divine intervention.
         But, why the Pats haven't won a playoff game since 2008 is more complicated. The 2008 season was ruined when Brady went down with his knee injury...in 2009, the Pats were beaten at home by a better Ravens' team...and in 2010, the twin flaws on the team, their lack of a pass-rush and poor pass defense, were laid bare by the Jets.
         Other reasons are that Tom Brady appeared to lose some of his swagger after that gut-wrenching SB loss, and continued to lose confidence in the subsequent loss to the Ravens.
         The blueprint for beating the Pats is to apply pressure to Brady, up the middle of the Pats' OL.   This plan was executed successfully by the Giants, Ravens, and Jets.
         Finally, poor drafts from 2006-09 have really hurt this team. Though it hasn't prevented success in the regular season, it has contributed to the Pats' failures against the better teams in the play-offs.    


      3. Have we solved the problem(s) via the 2010, 2011 drafts and FA to make us successful in the postseason?
     
    RESPONSE: The successful 2010 draft certainly put the Pats back on the SB contending track. Don't know enough about the 2011 class to judge. I'm of the opinion that Albert Haynesworth will be a great addition to the defense. But...can you imagine how much better the Pats "D" could be if Clay Matthews was a Patriot?     

    Have we done enough to to expect a different outcome this year?

    RESPONSE: This remains to be seen. The OL is a concern. Job one is keeping defenders off Tom Brady. The Pats also have serious question marks in their secondary, and at WR. But, as long as BB and Brady are dealing, the Pats will be a playoff team.  
    Lets talk...
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans : Meh.   If NE wins SB 42, no one is using this premise about bad drafts from 2006-2009.  2006 was bad.  2008, not very good but not one team had a good 2008 draft. NE took Mayo. NY took Gholston and Keller. I rest my case. And to your point about ROIC, I disagree with that in terms of how BB has handled it.  IN his position, I am not sure another GM has done better in the last few years. Maybe Ted Thompson with Favre or even Josh McDaniels fleecing Angelo (not McDaniel's choices) in the Cutler deal).  I posted this on the Commie thread, but I'll add it here because it applies: They traded back in 2009, sure, but they acquired #34, which is pretty much Rd 1 talent (Chung) simply because BB had the balls to tag Cassel at 16 million and cut cost with Vrabel. So, NE deals Seymour, has a bunch  of younger developed D Lineman now, Haynesworth, Ellis and Carter, Chung, and Solder based on the 2009 approach. It's not as bad as it appears.   2009 scored Chung (at 2nd rd money), Vollmer and a STs player in Edelman.  Two hits and a small role player as well as Hoyer, undrafted as a developmental project/back up that may lead to a possible 2nd rd pick in the future. Not bad. I'd call it solid if not good. BB also wisely traded back to still get his slam dunks at LESS MONEY in Mayo and McCourty (2010). These are huge moves because it allows him to get more high end complementary talent later. More money under the cap that way.  People scoff at this, but I don't get why when we just saw BB use it as leverage to get OchoCinco, Haynesworth, Ellis, Brian Waters, Andre Carter, etc. Look at those names with the the young base in the drafts. It's very reminiscent of why he didn't panic, cost-wise in 2002, and waited for 2003 to pluck COlvin, Ted Washington, Ty Poole, etc, etc. I see selling off Seymour, Vrabel, Cassel, and not signing Samuel are ways to get a return. They got Bodden for far cheaper than Samuel. What has Samuel done except not tackle and try to spike his INTs to get another paycheck?  That 2009 sell off (ROIC) landed NE huge cap savings going into a lockout, Chung, Solder, and now all these new FA vets. And I am forgetting small moves like having cash to resign Matt Light. Sounds dumb, but Light could be vital this year. Would you rather Seymour at 14 million or Ellis, Haynesworth, Carter, Brian Waters and Ocho at a total of 10? Look at the Colts right now.    They blew their last 3 drafts and overpaid Manning. Look at SD.  They have talent up the ying yang,  but had flaws with character hampering their eventual goals. Richard Seymour will make 14 million in Oakland and never sniff a SB ring ever again. Tommy Kelly outproduced Seymour last year at DT.  Go check it out. You could argue Tommyu Kelly is far better value and as great as an impact player as Seymour, but Al Davis pays for the name on the jersey and the 2004 version of Seymour.   I like that ROIC. I would hate Al Davis's version of it. I'll take Solder and the cap space and chances at rings. And if you look at Pitt?  They're old.   Their CBs are mediocre.  Their thin on defense.  If they don't win at all this year, watch them turn into a 2008 version of NE and their fans will start to get REALLY angry. To your point about more draft choices than any other teams: 1. I am not sure if that is true. 2. Go look at other teams' drafts and then look at NE's yields. I think you'll be surprised at what you see, especially in 2008. It's not a continuity issue on defense when you aren't overpaying for quick fixes.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    This is the Russ I like. Way to lay it out Russ, and I appreciate not being labeled anything. I'm just trying to understand, and appreciate the detail.

    when I talked about the draft, I was specfiically talking about rounds 1-3. Supposedly where the cream of the crop is, and specifically (2/3), BB's sweet spot.

    When I said the Pats picked there since 2006 more than any other team, I didn't have facts to back it up, but simply the total number, which I believe to be about 18 picks since 2006 in rounds 1-3. That's a lot of picking. I'll do a bit of research on this, but I would be surprised if another team picked as much in those rounds.

    What I consider absolutely amazing is even with some crappy picks, BB has found a way to surround this team with both young, medium and older talent. He keeps replenishing and being successful.
    The question would I rather have Seymore at $14M, or the rest of the bunch?...no question, I take the rest of the bunch without much issue at all. Even with Ocho who is work in progress.

    To TXPats' point...when you have an excellent team/excellent organization, you expect excellence all the way around. Not perfection, but excellence. If i see 2 areas of "less than excellent", it has to be with some of the player draft analysis, and with some of the coaching...and I'm not saying BB, but rather O'Brien.
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans




    Your the biggest "irrational" on here. You live on this site day and night. You have no life. Fact is you make things up and lie.
     
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    Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans

    In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Babe Parilli vs Rational Pats Fans : This is the Russ I like. Way to lay it out Russ, and I appreciate not being labeled anything. I'm just trying to understand, and appreciate the detail. when I talked about the draft, I was specfiically talking about rounds 1-3. Supposedly where the cream of the crop is, and specifically (2/3), BB's sweet spot. When I said the Pats picked there since 2006 more than any other team, I didn't have facts to back it up, but simply the total number, which I believe to be about 18 picks since 2006 in rounds 1-3. That's a lot of picking. I'll do a bit of research on this, but I would be surprised if another team picked as much in those rounds. What I consider absolutely amazing is even with some crappy picks, BB has found a way to surround this team with both young, medium and older talent. He keeps replenishing and being successful. The question would I rather have Seymore at $14M, or the rest of the bunch?...no question, I take the rest of the bunch without much issue at all. Even with Ocho who is work in progress. To TXPats' point...when you have an excellent team/excellent organization, you expect excellence all the way around. Not perfection, but excellence. If i see 2 areas of "less than excellent", it has to be with some of the player draft analysis, and with some of the coaching...and I'm not saying BB, but rather O'Brien.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

        Why blame Bill O'Brien? He doesn't draft players. He doesn't have anything to do with the Pats' defense. He's not the OL coach. Alot of folks who were complaining about O'Brien at this time last year had to eat crow, as the Patriots went 14-2, and lead the league in scoring.

         Did O'Brien call that ridiculous fake punt? On their initial drive, the Patriots were going through the Pats' defense like a hot knife through butter, until Brady threw that awful interception...which changed the momentum of the game. 

         The loss to the Jets was a team loss. The players didn't play with confidence on offense, and didn't execute. The defense stunk it up, particularly in the second half.

         Whose fault is it ultimately when the team plays terrible...and are outcoached? Bill O'Brien's, or BB?  
     

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