Defense Needs Work

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from carawaydj. Show carawaydj's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    You are right Tex, if they haven't improved from last year we are in for a tough season.  We'll still do well, but won't take home the Lombardi.  I expect improvement, but not until several games have been played.  Until then, a lot of fans will think we haven't improved on D.  I don't think anyone will question that in December and beyond.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work : I think the offense for texans and panthers as a whole will be a little stiffer in competetion, After 2004 superbowl I will never count delhomme out especially with that run game and offensive line in carolina. Of course the def ense was horrible on 3rd down as well redzone but again when they are on the field less and with a brand new corner tandem and depth, as well as 2nd year of development with Mayo Guyton Im saying the outlook is good!
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

         Champ:

         Were it not for his SB performance against the Pats, in which DelHomme had the game of his life, Jake would be either a glorified back-up, or playing for the Calgary Stampede in Canada. 

         How did you like his playoff performance last year against Arizona...where he chucked 5, or was it 6, interceptions? It was the worst playoff performance I've ever seen by a QB. And...he didn't have this horrible game against the Steelers or Ravens defense in frigid, hostile confines...he "accomplished" this on his home field in Carolina, against the "fearsome" Cardinals.

         I hope you're right about the Patriots' defense. But, in order to capture another Lombardi trophy in 2009, it has to be drastically better than it was in 2008.  
        
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    People keep mentioning the Pats pass defense, the run was not  that great either. Now let's see if the D can stop Portis and Ladell Betts. The Pats ranked 11th against the pass and 15th against the run. Two things; With Brady & Co on O the defense will get more time to rest than last season; if the Pats D continues to be average it will be very difficult to win the SB.....and that's really what all this talk about our D comes down too.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work :      Champ:      Were it not for his SB performance against the Pats, in which DelHomme had the game of his life, Jake would be either a glorified back-up, or playing for the Calgary Stampede in Canada.       How did you like his playoff performance last year against Arizona...where he chucked 5, or was it 6, interceptions? It was the worst playoff performance I've ever seen by a QB. And...he didn't have this horrible game against the Steelers or Ravens defense in frigid, hostile confines...he "accomplished" this on his home field in Carolina, against the "fearsome" Cardinals.      I hope you're right about the Patriots' defense. But, in order to capture another Lombardi trophy in 2009, it has to be drastically better than it was in 2008.       
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Definetaly will not attempt to defend Delhomme. I agree with you, I do think that with Otah(I think is his name) and Gross they have the best offensive line for the run in football with 2 homerun backs which gives any QB a chance to get Steve Smith the ball.

    I still have nightmares about that perfectly thrown TD to Smith and that Mushin stiff arm that pretty much ended Eugene Wilsons career( as he never again had confidence) but then I remember #12 refused to lose. What a game.

    Anyways good stuff, Surely one of the worst Quarterbacked games ever against Cards in Carolina. Wonder if they had second thoughts about extending Delhomme earlier that year?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    Some unwanted analysis from a Colt fan:

    The Pats definitely have some promising elements to their D, but many Pat fans are overly optimistic about the secondary.  It appears that Wheatley and Springs have proven they're not very good this year, leaving the team with only Wilhite and Bodden to start.  Butler's a great athlete, but I think you guys should know that as a rookie you're in trouble if you have to count on him this year.  VERY thin CB corps this year.  Bodden and Wilhite would have to be one of the weakest duos in the league, and it's almost literally all the team's got!  The Safeties are alright, and there's a little more depth there, but there's not a star in the bunch.  Merriweather has the potential...but he's not there yet.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]Some unwanted analysis from a Colt fan: The Pats definitely have some promising elements to their D, but many Pat fans are overly optimistic about the secondary.  It appears that Wheatley and Springs have proven they're not very good this year, leaving the team with only Wilhite and Bodden to start.  Butler's a great athlete, but I think you guys should know that as a rookie you're in trouble if you have to count on him this year.  VERY thin CB corps this year.  Bodden and Wilhite would have to be one of the weakest duos in the league, and it's almost literally all the team's got!  The Safeties are alright, and there's a little more depth there, but there's not a star in the bunch.  Merriweather has the potential...but he's not there yet.
    Posted by JulesWinfield[/QUOTE]

    When did Springs and Wheatley show they were not good this year. You haven't seen Springs and Wheatley had one bad preseason game. I think saying this is the best our corner situation has looked going into the season in the last few years is very realistic. After listening to experts like Tim Ryan, Pat Kirwan, and a majority of other analysists who had a first hand picture this group say that they looked real good in camp, I will take what they say at face value. Not to sound bitter because I appreciate your perspective but I would be more worried about Bob Sanders health and your own secondary because the Houston Texans might just shock you guys twice this year.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    Houston does have a decent team this year, and Bob Sanders' health is always a concern.  Both of these issues have been well documented this year.  As a rule, I don't "worry" about football, though, as I'm only a spectator and not on the team.  As far as Sanders goes, the Colts spent most of last season without him and still managed to get into the playoffs.  Whether he starts on the PUP or not, they shouldn't have him for less time than last year.  Besides, that's what depth is for...someone gets injured every year.  The Colts have the "Next Man Up" theory, which is a less g@y version of the Pats' "Man Behind". 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work : Definetaly will not attempt to defend Delhomme. I agree with you, I do think that with Otah(I think is his name) and Gross they have the best offensive line for the run in football with 2 homerun backs which gives any QB a chance to get Steve Smith the ball. I still have nightmares about that perfectly thrown TD to Smith and that Mushin stiff arm that pretty much ended Eugene Wilsons career( as he never again had confidence) but then I remember #12 refused to lose. What a game. Anyways good stuff, Surely one of the worst Quarterbacked games ever against Cards in Carolina. Wonder if they had second thoughts about extending Delhomme earlier that year?
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

         Champ:

         Hard to believe that the Panthers extended DelHomme for such big money, on the heels of that horrific playoff performance: http://www.carolinagrowl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11%3Adelhomme-gets-five-year-425-million-contract-extension&Itemid=5 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]Some unwanted analysis from a Colt fan: The Pats definitely have some promising elements to their D, but many Pat fans are overly optimistic about the secondary.
    Posted by JulesWinfield[/QUOTE]

    First let me say, to play devil's advocate, that our defensive backfield is the group with the most new parts and is a "question mark" if you prefer; that has been well documented. 

    Shawn Springs if healthy doesn't have to prove anything to you; he has done it over his entire career. That being said he was my dark horse pick to be cut after the preseason due to age and injury, even if that comes to pass we aren't in bad shape. 

    Wheately is a slot corner and a good one, players of every size have a use and covering small quick slot receivers is just as important as covering the big outside receivers; Bodden and Wheately cover those needs very well.  To point out that Terrence had a bad game against the Bengal's extraordinarily large receivers isn't necessary; if he was great at it I don't suppose Bill B would have had him out there working on it... that's why they call it preseason.

    Meriweather in his second season led the Patriots with four interceptions, tying the highest total by a Patriots safety since Lawyer Milloy had six interceptions in 1998, ranked third on the team with 79 tackles (57 solo), a total that led all Patriots defensive backs, finished second on the team with nine passes defensed, tied for third on the team with 11 special teams tackles and played in every game, starting the final 11 games of the season out of position at strong safety after opening-day starter Rodney Harrison was placed on injured reserve.  He broke perennial All Pro Bennie Blades career mark for tackles as well as the single season record for tackles at UM.  To say he isn't that good is either a misnomer or proves you haven't been paying attention.

    To pretend as though you have some inside knowledge on young players like Whilite or Darius Butler to prove your argument really shows that it has no teeth.  Butler and Chung have looked excellent through camp and preseason, if Butler isn't starting by game one than he will be soon enough.  Chung was only the highest rated safety in the draft, drafted by a former secondary coach who currently happens to be the best head coach and talent evaluator in the league; that's enough for me.

    With Adalius Thomas, Burgess, Seymour and Wilfork crushing the pocket and rushing the passer the corners won't have to hold up too long on their own back there.  We won Super Bowls with Troy Brown (a wide receiver) as well as Randall Gay and a slew of other undrafted free agents at corner, so in short thank you for your concern but it's unwarranted... 

    In "Bill We Trust" is our motto... unlike the Dolt's fan motto "In Bill (Polian) we trust to cry about the rules so we have a chance next season."
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]Some unwanted analysis from a Colt fan: The Pats definitely have some promising elements to their D, but many Pat fans are overly optimistic about the secondary.  It appears that Wheatley and Springs have proven they're not very good this year, leaving the team with only Wilhite and Bodden to start.  Butler's a great athlete, but I think you guys should know that as a rookie you're in trouble if you have to count on him this year.  VERY thin CB corps this year.  Bodden and Wilhite would have to be one of the weakest duos in the league, and it's almost literally all the team's got!  The Safeties are alright, and there's a little more depth there, but there's not a star in the bunch.  Merriweather has the potential...but he's not there yet.
    Posted by JulesWinfield[/QUOTE]

    Sounds like a bunch of crapp written by some hick from the Indianapolis Aggy Weekly. I doubt you're even smart enough to come up with these opinions which are nonetheless moronic.  I would counter that the Indy Colts are the losingest, franchise in the history of the sport. Here's an article about how much they succk, http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2759_You'd_be_ornery_if_you_were_a_Colts_fan,_too.html.
    The world would be better off without you Jules.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work :      Champ:      Hard to believe that the Panthers extended DelHomme for such big money, on the heels of that horrific playoff performance: http://www.carolinagrowl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11%3Adelhomme-gets-five-year-425-million-contract-extension&Itemid=5  
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    20 Million guarenteed. Aging Qb that battled injuries for the last 2 years and came off of major elbow surgery. If they didnt tie up 46 mil to Jake the Snake and 17 mil for 1 year to malcontent Peppers the Panthers could of made some noise in free agency.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    "Meriweather in his second season led the Patriots with four interceptions, tying the highest total by a Patriots safety since Lawyer Milloy had six interceptions in 1998, ranked third on the team with 79 tackles (57 solo), a total that led all Patriots defensive backs, finished second on the team with nine passes defensed, tied for third on the team with 11 special teams tackles and played in every game, starting the final 11 games of the season out of position at strong safety after opening-day starter Rodney Harrison was placed on injured reserve.  He broke perennial All Pro Bennie Blades career mark for tackles as well as the single season record for tackles at UM.  To say he isn't that good is either a misnomer or proves you haven't been paying attention."


    Ha ha.  This is pretty much my point.  When you have to point to four ints and college statistics to defend a player, you know he hasn't really arrived yet.  I don't have any more insight than y'all do about your corners and safeties, but I did watch them in the last pre-season gamesand listened to people from this forum complain about them.  I have the TIVO set for tomorrow's game.  Let's see if Wheatley and Chung look less lost!  The Redskin receivers shouldn't be too much of a challenge, should they?
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Defense Needs Work : First let me say, to play devil's advocate, that our defensive backfield is the group with the most new parts and is a "question mark" if you prefer; that has been well documented.  Shawn Springs if healthy doesn't have to prove anything to you; he has done it over his entire career. That being said he was my dark horse pick to be cut after the preseason due to age and injury, even if that comes to pass we aren't in bad shape.

    RESPONSE: I don't know, Woz...the weazing Springs could be this years' Fernando Bryant.

      Wheately is a slot corner and a good one, players of every size have a use and covering small quick slot receivers is just as important as covering the big outside receivers; Bodden and Wheately cover those needs very well.  To point out that Terrence had a bad game against the Bengal's extraordinarily large receivers isn't necessary; if he was great at it I don't suppose Bill B would have had him out there working on it... that's why they call it preseason.

    RESPONSE:  Wheatley isn't drawing criticism just for the Bengal game. He's had a poor preseason. Were it not for the fact that he was a 2nd round pick in 2008, he'd likely be a goner. Thus far, he hasn't shone himself to be a good "slot corner"...or a good any other kind of corner.  As for Bodden, the Pats expected him to be one of their two starting CBs when they signed him. Anything less would be a dissappointment. I hate to admit it...but the Pats really do miss Asante Samuel. 

    Meriweather in his second season led the Patriots with four interceptions, tying the highest total by a Patriots safety since Lawyer Milloy had six interceptions in 1998, ranked third on the team with 79 tackles (57 solo), a total that led all Patriots defensive backs, finished second on the team with nine passes defensed, tied for third on the team with 11 special teams tackles and played in every game, starting the final 11 games of the season out of position at strong safety after opening-day starter Rodney Harrison was placed on injured reserve.  He broke perennial All Pro Bennie Blades career mark for tackles as well as the single season record for tackles at UM.  To say he isn't that good is either a misnomer or proves you haven't been paying attention.

    RESPONSE: Meriweather best position is FS. I agree with you that he has made strides, and is turning out to be a solid player. But, he has a ways to go before I mention him in the same breath with the games' top safeties.

    To pretend as though you have some inside knowledge on young players like Whilite or Darius Butler to prove your argument really shows that it has no teeth.  Butler and Chung have looked excellent through camp and preseason, if Butler isn't starting by game one than he will be soon enough.  Chung was only the highest rated safety in the draft, drafted by a former secondary coach who currently happens to be the best head coach and talent evaluator in the league;

    RESPONSE: You appear to be a bit too thrilled with Chung...who really hasn't shown himself to be anything special, yet. I do agree with you on Butler. He's had a great camp...and appears to be the best rookie prospect from the 2009 class.

    that's enough for me. With Adalius Thomas, Burgess, Seymour and Wilfork crushing the pocket and rushing the passer the corners won't have to hold up too long on their own back there. 

    RESPONSE: Whens' the last time the Pats' 4-5 have "crushed the pocket"? Lack of pressure in 2008 was one of the main reasons for the inability of the "D"  to get off the field on 3rd downs...and for giving up a league high 31 TD passes.

    We won Super Bowls with Troy Brown (a wide receiver) as well as Randall Gay and a slew of other undrafted free agents at corner, so in short thank you for your concern but it's unwarranted...

    RESPONSE: True...but back then, half the Pats' secondary was made up of  Asante Samuel and Rodney Harrison. The Pats also had Willie McGinest, Rosevelt Colvin, and Mike Vrabel bringing some heat to the opposing QBs.

      In "Bill We Trust" is our motto... unlike the Dolt's fan motto "In Bill (Polian) we trust to cry about the rules so we have a chance next season."
    Posted by wozzy

    RESPONSE: Woz...I don't like Polian either. But, theres' no denying that he's one of the best personnel evaluators in the game.

    [/QUOTE]

         In the end, my friend...I hope your optimistic outlook for the Pats' "D" is right on.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    Tex, It seems like last season had a lasting affect on your perception of the D. Believe me I understand, but the 3 main contributing factors for the poor defense last year was:

    1. Most importantly Tom Brady was not there to make long sustained drives, which would give us time of possession and keep the D fresh.

    2. Almost as important was the fact it was a transitional year at lots of positions. Some positions due to injury and some do to new members of the team. Mayo 1st year at MLB great year but still new member. Vrabel lost a step couldnt get to the QB like in years past. Loss of Rodney Harrison,leader of the defense. Woods out for year. Potential replacement to Vrable and Woods - Crable out for year. Best OLB we had Adalius played half the year. All of these key pieces were vital to the next point.

    3. Worst starting Corners in football. Hobbs best days were in the slot not trying to cover #1 and #2 wrs. Deltha Oneal Cmon! These guys might not have been exposed in a BB defense if it hadn't been for the key injuries to players mentioned above. I think if you look at the upgrades to most positions, the health of veterans, the new corners on the roster, the depth in the secondary and a solidified pass rush with the best defensive line in football then the defensive issues should be laid to rest.

    How many bad defenses has BB had in his time here. Twice, 2002 and 2008. Key injuries were the cause of both. We are Primed to Shine! Dont worry!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    In Response to Defense Needs Work:
    [QUOTE]     Not to put a damper on things, but the Pats' defense looked slow, and very mediocre. I realize that its' only preseason, but far too many yards were given up last night, especially on the ground.      As a recent article in the Cold, Hard Football Facts website pointed out, the Pats "D" held opposing teams to just 300 points or less in the regular season, during their championship years. Thats' an average of about 19 points per game, or less. Points allowed will be a stat that bears watching.        Heres' the pertinent part of the article mentioned above:      "The magic number is 300 points. The Patriots surrendered fewer than 300 points in 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007 – they played in the AFC title game all five years and in the Super Bowl in four of those years. Only a miracle Colts comeback prevented the Patriots from a perfect five for five when their defense is solid."
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE] the pats are concerned about it.

    http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/football/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1193673&format=text
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    Hey Jules your teams D pretty much s ucks year in and year out so maybe you dont exactly have the best insight.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    not to mention,what good is it to make the playoffs,and then not make it to the big dance?i would be more upset with that,then not make the playoffs.sure some can brag by saying they went farther then the other team,but the results are the same.they all will be watching the superbowl on tv.and the team who didnt make the playoffs,also will have a better draft pick the next year.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

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    Hmmm.  They've sucked their way to 12 wins and the playoffs six straight years.  Try again.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    how many super bowls?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    I don't know why the we Pats fans are listening to a Colts fan talk about defense. Not at any point in time during the Belichick era in New Endgland have the Colts ever had a better defense than the Pats. 

    As far as I'm concerned the Patriots only have one real weakness in their defense and that's the LOLB position. I would rather see either Crable or Burgess at that rather than Pierre, but sometimes you have to play the hand you've been dealt. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    To nobody in particular...

    My outlook for the D isn't based on what they did last year, but rather the free agent acquisitions, rookie class and common sense.  Meriweather played well last season, like I said in my original post OUT OF POSITION at strong safety.  All he did was lead the defensive backfield in tackles or his job the best he could for a guy barely reaching 200 pounds.

    Butler has the same size and physical makeup as Asante Samuel only he ran the forty 2 tenths of a second faster in the draft and played at a big division school.  I know that doesn't make anything a sure bet but once again... I believe in Bill.  

    It will take some time for Chung to get up to pro speed, to some degree longer than it will take Butler to figure out the corner position.  Strong safety is more of a QB position requiring more thought process, in the same way straight coverage requires more athletically than mental acuity.  In short my intial expectations are more reserved for Chung than Butler, but they both have huge upside and have the best guy in the world to teach them.

    If you or anyone don't think Thomas, Burgess and Woods are more of a pass rush threat than the past few years than I can't help you.   
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mosseffect43. Show mosseffect43's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    some free agent acquisitions do look great on paper.or on a roster,but its the real time game when they count.hopefully with the new additions in the seconday will help out against the passing game,and one problem the pats have had the last couple of years is stopping the run,and its still showing in the pre-season.but yes they still have a few more weeks to correct it.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Defense Needs Work

    "If you or anyone don't think Thomas, Burgess and Woods are more of a pass rush threat than the past few years than I can't help you."   

    I think Thomas is the key.  A lot is on him this year.  I know a lot of you disagree, but Adalius hasn't put the pressure on the QB that the team expected when it signed him.  This year, if Thomas doesn't show Pro Bowl calliber pass rush, I see the Pats' D having an awful tough time.  He seemed on his way last year when he got injured...and if he looks like he did in Baltimore, your D is looking alright to me. 

    While I don't think too highly of Burgess or Woods as pass-rushers, I think Banta-Cain is looking like a very good pick-up.  More of a role-player, but I've got to give props where I see them. 
     

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