Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonpete. Show bostonpete's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Yes we do, and his name should be Jon Gruden!  Allow him to be Bill's successor as well.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NEGAME. Show NEGAME's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    OK beat me up for this--how bout Jim Mora--and he loves Brady
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rocher. Show rocher's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Jim Mora coaches defense.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ltown1. Show Ltown1's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    My gut says yes but to be fair, we really can't tell.   Brady was playing hurt most of the year and he had no recievers to throw too other than Welker.

    Ironically it was the passing game that hurt them this season.  They ran the ball well.   Brady was off for the first part of the year, then he was playing hurt with no targets to throw too.

    Tough season.  

    I just don't feel there is enough there to blame the offensive coordinator.  There was definately a lack of imagination but we can't put all the blame on him, not yet.    I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

    We better make some moves for a reciever this offseason though.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NEGAME. Show NEGAME's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Rocher, thanks for that, for some reason I thought he coached offense.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Anyone who says we were pretty good on offense this year isn't looking at the big picture, we couldn't shut the door on opposing teams.

    The Patriots were especially bad in the second half of their six road losses, and the most glaring statistic was on third down. New England misfired on all three of its second-half, third-down conversions in it's last game and is 7 of 31 (22.6 percent) on third down in the second half of its six losses this season. Meanwhile, the Patriots are 22 of 45 (48.9 percent) on third down in the first half of those games.

    Also by saying that we were balanced you couldn't be any more wrong, Moss and Welker were on the receiving end of almost every pass.  That suggests to me that Brady was relying more on old faithfull bailouts by those two instead of spreading the wealth around and creating mismatches with our personel.  It wasn't so long ago that our stat sheet had EVERY possible receiver eligible to catch one, doing so... Weis even got linebackers like Vrabel in on the act.

    592 passing attempts to 466 rushing attempts is not balanced; 50/50 is balanced.  Moreover despite all the complaints about the running game or more specifically the runningbacks, we averaged 4.1 yards per carry or a very decent average, but when we were succesful running we didn't stick with it, we gave games away by presenting opposing teams with more opportunities to score. 

    44% on 3rd down conversions is pitiful and shows a lack of overall knowledge in regards to play calling.  Create manageable 3rd down opportunities by running on early downs, practice 3rd and short and goal line situations again and again in practice. 

    That is smashmouth Patriot football... or at least it used to be.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from rocher. Show rocher's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    I could care less who catches the ball. I just want results. 277 yards passing a game is still 277 yards a game. Which is better than most teams.
    Now as for a 50/50 run to pass ratio...you must be a fan of the Bills offense.
    They passed 441 times and ran 424 times..the most balanced run to pass in the NFL. So..Alex Van Pelt is available to be the Pats OC if you want (they all got fired).
    I don't think 3rd down efficiency is grounds to be fired, which was the original question of this thread.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Sorry but you don't get points in the NFL for "yards per game," that only happens in fantasy land.

    Also if your team is getting first downs, that means the other team's offense is on the sidelines watching and can't possibly score.  If you don't see the obvious plus side to spreading the ball around, being unpredictable, field position and controlling the time of possesion than you probably wouldn't make much of a playcaller either.

    If you win a Superbowl (or any game or that matter) by 3 points or by 20 points, are people going to remember the final score... or simply who won?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rocher. Show rocher's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    You are all over the map..first it was a 50 50 pass to run ratio of plays called (the results don't matter) because "yards only count in fantasy land".

    Then it was third down effic. (Pats were 8th in NFL, 44 % is not "pathetic" compared to most of the NFL) Now it is how many first downs you get (The Pats were #1 in first downs per game in the NFL.)
     
    Then  you say the win is the only important thing, so a 7-0 win is a victory for the offense and proof that that the OC is doing a good job as far you are concerned.

    Well then, we can just rank offenses by team record then. My opinion is the D lost more games  than the O.
     Ohh..the Pats were first in the NFL in time of possesion, so your point is lost on me. Did you like the Pats offense or not ? They were the most dink and dunk team in the NFL and the D still got torched for 400+ yards in the 5 of 6 losses.
    So again..other than complaining about my definition of balance..can you answer the original question..should the first year OC get canned ?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from rocher. Show rocher's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Uhhh..the Pats 3rd down conversion rate was 8th in the NFL. There was NO NFL team that coverted more than 49 % of third downs (the highest was 49 %) Way to be realistic. 

     They were #1 in time of possesion ..so there was no "right back on the field for the D". The Pats kept their D more rested than any other team in the NFL.
     
    And way to give the D a pass..did they or have they recently showed up big and any recent big game ? At least the O shows up occasionaly..but can't help it if the D blows 4th quarter lead after 4th quarter lead. What are your expectations of them ? Not much it seems..

    Again it was his first year. Sorry he wasn't Sean Payton (10 years calling plays..or Jason Garrett  4 years or so as OC).
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from viewer222. Show viewer222's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    manowar Good post.
    I agree with most of your opinions. The offense would probably been better with Cassell this year. However Patten, Givens and Branch all caught the ball on a lot more consistent basis than Ben watson, Sam Aiken and Stawacz.
    It is evident we need more receiver talent.
    Also reading ESPN post, it appears that BB was the OC for a good part of the year, especially the last 4 games. It is almost BB was training Scott Obrien. Like you said , it is difficult to know how Scott Obrien would do with a more typical Pats offense but if the Pats can find an OC who BB trust enough to run the offensive show, bring him in. Scott OBrien is actually the special teams coach anyway.
    The defense was terrible for a lot of reasons. It is true that the offense did not help and the pass rush was almost non-existant.
    So draft a pass rusher, Anyone who BB brings in through FA will more than likely be past his prime and command megabucks.
     I'd also like to add that the offensive line played way better than many posters give them credit for. When Matt Light is only getting beaten by 4 or 5 teams and you got guys like Mankins and Seabass the line will not take much to spruce up. It would also help a little if TB can move around better next year.  
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from darwk. Show darwk's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Yes. At the top of a long list of priorities.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from schwank. Show schwank's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    apdynasty23.....I hear you.....I think they simply ran out out guys by seasons end.  I think they would love the fact that they could have sent out a ..... Moss Welker Lewis and Galloway (with Tate in the background) combo once in while.  They just swung and missed this year....every one...even the TE Alex Smith.  So what looked extremely promising in July .... looked woefully deficient in October.  

    That said the development side of the team has taken it's lumps with the losses of Pioli, Dimitrioff (sp) et al.  They still have Casserio, but I think maybe their "professional"  player scouting may have taken a hit.  Literally everyone they brought in (via trade or free agency was a dispppointment....Springs, Burgess, Alex Smith, Lewis, Galloway, I'm sure I'm missing someone).  That has to be better.  I'll give them an "improved grade on the "collegiate" side of the organizational chart.  They, had, waht appears so far, as a better draft last year than the previous 3.  Time will tell.    
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Good summation Manowar333...

    Just having Tom Brady on your team ensures that your team will convert on a high rate of third downs, unfortuntely the majority of our third down opportunities were third and long as opposed to third and short because we were stuffed in our own backfield way too often and Tom bailed us out by converting a long pass... not an ideal situation game after game.

    Rocher you seem so impressed with this years offense, wasn't this basically the same lineup that broke multiple NFL scoring records in 2007?

    Even than I was skeptical of a philosophy that used to be smashmouth and now was a pass heavy, finesse offense but even Josh Mac knew enough about play calling to ring up some points. 

    I could sit here and quote stats all day but the real telling things were what I had to watch on the field. 

    The same explosive offense from 2007 couldn't get the plays on the field in time, had delay of game penalties, couldn't work succesful vet receivers like Joey Galloway and Greg Lewis into the rotation by the end of training camp and rookies like Edelman had to be told where to line up all season, most importantly was having to watch games and the obvious play calling that opposing defenses could easily sniff out.

    Our defense was young and showed improvement as the season went on.  Our offense was supposed to lead the way and carry us while the young guys on D figured out how to play, instead the D usually kept us in games while the offense went three and out again again and again...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Rocher and Wozzy both have good points.  Rocher is right that our offense overall was one of the best in the league.  Wozzy is right that our offense repeatedly failed when it mattered most ... trying to run out the clock late in the game when we had the lead.  That used to be the hallmark of our offense and this year it was our achilles heel.

    Every team's stats are skewed by the bad teams they played - there was some article about Brady recently saying he played against tougher defenses than Manning, Brees and Rivers so I don't think strength of schedule helped our offense that much.

    If we can miraculously get a new guard and a new tackle who can protect Brady better than this year's crew and an outside wide receiver who can run precise routes and make his breaks and cuts seamlessly (ala Branch), I think our team will be in good shape next year.  But that is asking a lot and not likely to happen.  Neal is done, Light and Kaczur are fading, Tate is an unknown, and it's not reasonable to expect a newcomer, whether rookie or FA, to fill in at the level that Vollmer, Moss and Welker did their first years here. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Yapple. Show Yapple's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    If we were determined to let ONE PERSON carry the ball 25-30 times a game, regardless of his occasional mistakes, our offensive coach would look a lot better. Isn't Belichick still the man in charge? Can't he just order the OC to run the ball with the SAME PERSON 25-30 times a game? He must be aware of this. Ain't he?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Truthfully Yapple I didn't mind the rotation of Maroney, Morris and Taylor at all, they were all effective when the game plan focused on power running, they could have given them ten carries each.  All three were healthy for the playoffs...

    Why didn't they run the ball, even after Rice ripped off that huge opening TD?

    Why did we play as though we were panicked, going into our two minute offense?

    An average twelve year old playing Madden Football would know better, especially against the Ravens..?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davedsone. Show Davedsone's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    I think we need more than that.  we need a new MINDSET.  The NFL has seen us alot and figured us out.  We need new thinking.  I also think it is time to go with zone blocking O line, 4-3 defense (getting too hard to find 3-4 players, by Bill B's own admission) and get a couple of LARGE recievers and LARGE Cornerbacks.  Disrupting receivers at the line of scrimmage is going to be the way to go, with all the PI rules, once they release you have too little you can do with them.  Note Mannings destruction of the Jets D.  I'm believing and waiting for Coach B's shining rebuild plan.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jedinate. Show jedinate's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    I wasn't aware that we had an offensive coordinator. I thought I was signalling in the plays with my mind, since I could guess them all.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rocher. Show rocher's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Yeah..that Colts offense is so unpredictable. About 3 formations. 2 run plays. 4 or 5 pass concepts. TE seam...TE out....WR slant..WR fade  WR comeback. Did I miss anything ? Were you dazzled by the Colts variety on offense ? Or just their execution.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Creativity is meaningless in playcalling; it's about execution.  Charlie was creative and it never worked... STP43FAN

    Funny, I thought it worked great on our way to three superbowl victories... 

    If a defense recognizes the play before the snap, even if its executed perfectly, they will blow it up.  For a baby faced youngster, Josh MacDaniel was light years ahead of O'Brien...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    posted at 1/25/2010 11:41 PM EST
    Posts: 245
    First: 2/26/2008
    Last: 1/25/2010
    Yeah..that Colts offense is so unpredictable. About 3 formations. 2 run plays. 4 or 5 pass concepts. TE seam...TE out....WR slant..WR fade  WR comeback. Did I miss anything ? Were you dazzled by the Colts variety on offense ? Or just their execution.
    I think you may be on to something here. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Despite you're pointing out some random individual plays that didn't work, the simple FACT remains the Patriots won 3 rings with Charlie, the Giants won one with him and the Jets were substantially better when he worked there.  Again... just FACTS... 

    You're out of your freaking mind if you think our receiving corp was better in 2005 than this season.  Moreover there was NO offensive coordinator in 2005 and Mangini was named defensive coordinator.  The receiving corp didn't get "decimated" this season, his key runningback didn't call the plays and carried the ball twice in the playoff loss to the Ravens... where do you get your information from?

    Did you watch any games this season, how many delay of game penalties did we get because the plays didn't get out there on time. How about that one we got AFTER coming out of a TV timeout...  What was your point again..?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    mighty, rocher, forget those stats. they are not the right stats to look at.

    here's an analogous scenario. it's like a guy saying he's comfortable when his head is in big ice cube and his feet are in boiling water, because the average of the readings at those two temperature sites is neither freezing nor burning.

    you can't look at those stats without linking them to the situations.

    bottomline is that they do need an oc, for the following reasons:

    1) not true that they are balanced. the true measure of balance is what they do on critical downs. on two games, i tried to follow the play-by-play on the web. 3rd down was usually a screen to KF, or a pass to WW in the middle. this year, they seldom ran on third down. you don't even need to pull all the data to know this.

    2) their red zone production is not championship caliber. don't tell me that they do not have enough talent to score TDs everytime. nobody can convince me that they have offensive talent now that they did on those sb years. none of the players that brady passed to on those years had successful careers after leaving NE. the difference therefore between then and now lies in one of three things - schemes, play calling, execution. everyone of those problems have to do with coaching.

    3) tb has to be reminded to be a more patient game manager. how many here noticed that they go pass-heavy once they give up the lead, even when it's just first quarter? that's sure indicator that brady gets impatient. someone...someone whom tb would actually respect and listen to, has to remind him to be patient, and give brady schemes to work with.

    4) how many times did NE win from behind this year? maybe once? i don't even remember. of course this is not just becasue of the offense. but big factors are ones mentioned in #s 1, 2 and 3.

    5) you guys already said it. they're not doing anything different. other teams already know what to expect. i don't know if they showed this on tv, but i was listening to the radio during the gave vs the ravens. the commentator was talking about a conversation with ray lewis who was claiming that he would listen to a radio coverage of NE's games, and based on the play-by-play announcer's description of the situation, NE's formation and where brady looks, lewis knew exactly what the patriots were going to run. maybe he was exagerrating, but that last game versus them told me there was a lot of truth to that.

    NE was able to achieve a lot of success in the early 2000s by just taking advantage of the element of surprise. that element of surprise seems to be mising now, such that even with more talent, they are not as productive.

    NE needs an OC who can introduce some innovation in NE's playbook and who can actually coach TB.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from rocher. Show rocher's posts

    Re: Do We Need A New Offense Coordinator??

    Funny..when Mcdaniels left it seemed not many NE fans were concerned (typical.."we don't need you"  posts). It seemed the consensus was that Tom Brady called all the plays a la Peyton Manning and was basically the de facto OC..Fans basically said McD was overrated (I thought it would be the biggest loss of the offseason) and as long as the Pats had Brady they would be fine. Interesting now, the fans tune has changed it seems.
    Go back and look at the threads if you disagree with me.
    Funny to see many now howling for his return, or now giving him his due respect.
     

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