Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to rtuinila's comment:
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    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to rtuinila's comment:
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    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:
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    rtuinila had the best example.   You could run the entire length of the field (before the goal line) with your feet in bounds, holding the ball over the end line.  You'd still be in bounds and the play is not dead.

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    fine .... since he didnt go out of bounds .  But when you do go OB, the ball comes back to wher it crossed the sideline plane.

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    No it doesn't. It goes to where the ball was when the a part of the players body hits the ground out of bounds. Just like it goes to where the ball is when a ball carriers knee hits the ground.

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    yes it does.

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    Wrong again little man!

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    agree with digger ...   Get someone to spell it out in little words for your little brain.   Since you can't even grasp common sense... 

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    Still wrong little man, the spot was correct. I know the rules, you obviously don't!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Tomhab. Show Tomhab's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    This rule has bugged me for years.  A player can run across the goal line with the ball outstretched in his hand out of bounds and it's a TD.  But if he's flying out of bounds an reaches the ball back across the goal line it's a score.  Make a rule and stick with it, if the ball crossing the goal line and not the player it is TD so then if the ball crosses the Out Of Bounds line it it should be Out Of Bounds.  Even with that I thought the ball was down before the first down marker on this play.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to rtuinila's comment:
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    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to rtuinila's comment:
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    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to rtuinila's comment:
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    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:
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    rtuinila had the best example.   You could run the entire length of the field (before the goal line) with your feet in bounds, holding the ball over the end line.  You'd still be in bounds and the play is not dead.

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    fine .... since he didnt go out of bounds .  But when you do go OB, the ball comes back to wher it crossed the sideline plane.

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    No it doesn't. It goes to where the ball was when the a part of the players body hits the ground out of bounds. Just like it goes to where the ball is when a ball carriers knee hits the ground.

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    yes it does.

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    Wrong again little man!

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    agree with digger ...   Get someone to spell it out in little words for your little brain.   Since you can't even grasp common sense... 

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    Still wrong little man, the spot was correct. I know the rules, you obviously don't!

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    YOu're talking out yur azs ,   bro.    I asked for only quotes from the rulebook ...  not your seat of the pants opinion.   You're wrong and the more you spout your opinion without checking the rulebook or someone  that knows the rules the dumber you will continue to look.


    And don't think you will ever live this down...  This thread will go down in history as your dumbest moment on this board.  So be careful as you continue.   Your already past the point of no return.... keep going  rtoolya... . I apologize in advance for the bludgeoning you are walking into.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to Tomhab's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This rule has bugged me for years.  A player can run across the goal line with the ball outstretched in his hand out of bounds and it's a TD.  But if he's flying out of bounds an reaches the ball back across the goal line it's a score.  Make a rule and stick with it, if the ball crossing the goal line and not the player it is TD so then if the ball crosses the Out Of Bounds line it it should be Out Of Bounds.  Even with that I thought the ball was down before the first down marker on this play.

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    Not quite, It is a td if he pulls the ball back inbounds while still in the endzone. Welker got nabbed a couple of years ago on this one. He crossed the goaline at the pylon as he was also going out of bounds. The ball however was in the upfield hand and it never crossed the goaline. The ball was spotted at the 4 inch line.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to rtuinila's comment:
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    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    The rule again:

    The Inbounds Spot is a spot 70 feet 9 inches in from the sideline on the yard line passing through the spot where the ball or a runner is out of bounds between the goal lines.

     

    You don't have an inbounds spot until the player or the ball goes out of bounds.  And the player (or ball in possession of the player) isn't out of bounds until the player touches down out of bounds.  While he's extended over the sideline, he's still inbounds. 

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    Well, you clearly have a different take on what is a fairly clear rule, in my opinion at least. Here's my take and I'll end my contribution to this thread here (because it's getting tedious).

    The moment the runner contacts the ground OB, the play is dead and the ball is obviously dead as well. The ball is spotted at the place where it is, if it's still inbounds at that moment, or at the place it crossed the sideline if it's OB. A runner simply cannot leap like Bob Beamon across the sideline and gain five yards or so just because he hasn't yet touched the ground. That is unless he can somehow do that and keep the ball inbounds.

    That's why they have a pylon. There's not a different rule at the goal line. The ball has to be inbounds to get credit for the yardage.

    That's why you see players reach around the first down marker inbounds. If they could do that OB, they would. It would be a lot easier.

     

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    Wrong Muzz, they have a pylon because in the olden days, the goaline was considered to extend all the way around the earth and as long as the player hadn't gone out of bounds before the ball crossed that line, it was scored as a touchdown. They changed that rule back in the 70's I think. So since they can't bring the ball back into the field of play inside the endzone, they have to bring it back to where the ball went out of bounds.

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    What part of Muzwell's post do you not get...?    Please answer the highlighted FACT.   a player cannot leapfrog like a long jumper and land 8 yards out of bounds and expect to gain that yardage ...  !!!!!!   This disproves your premise.....!   The forward progress ends when the ball leaves the field of play...!

    End of discussion... a person with commonsense would think, right... ?   Wow I really thought more intelligent posters would get on here and set it straight for everybody... 

    This has turned into my personal pet peeve...  I have to defend the rulebook and the sanctity of calls made on the field that affect wins and losses for this team...  I started this thread for clarification.  Thanks to all that posted the rulebook starting with catfish, then digger had his input, and ghost of jr who really had a good grasp of the rule ... but then you have rtoolina spouting off stuf that makes no sense and Prolate professing his cluelessness.   Why...?  It's a rule that should have no dispute.... lol... right...?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    Aaargh.  I'm posting the NCAA rules, because they are clearer, but I think they NFL rules are interpreted identically.  See the pink sections. 

    The issue is whether Smith was airborne or not when he went out of bounds.  Personally, I think he was stretching rather than launching, but I guess you could argue otherwise.  

    If he was stretching, the refs were right.  

     

     

     

    SECTION 2. Out of Bounds Player Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 1. a. A player is out of bounds when any part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).

    b. A player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

    Held Ball Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.

    Ball Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

    b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

    c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

    Out of Bounds at Forward Point

    ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).

    1. A touchdown is scored if the ball is inbounds and has broken the plane of the goal line (Rule 2-12-2) before or simultaneous to the ball carrier going out of bounds.

    2. A receiver who is in the opponent’s end zone and contacting the ground is credited with a completion if he reaches over the sideline or end line and catches a legal pass.

    3. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1- VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    So why on a Touchdown do you need to hit the PYLON...????????  (with the ball)

    [/QUOTE]

    You don't need to hit it, you do, however, need to be inside of it (hitting counts as inside)

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

     

    The TD rule from the NFL is fairly clear:

     

    Section 2 Touchdown

    TOUCHDOWN PLAYS

    Article 1

    (a) (b) (c) (d)

    (e)

    Touchdown Plays. A touchdown is scored when:
    the ball is on, above, or behind the pla
    ne of the opponents’ goal line (extended) and is in possession of a runner who

    has advanced from the field of play into the end zone; or
    a ball in possession of an airborne runner is on, above, or behind the plane of the goal line, and some part of the ball

    passed over or inside the pylon; or

    a ball in player possession touches the pylon, provided that, after contact by an opponent, no part of the player’s body, except his hands or feet, struck the ground before the ball touched the pylon; or

    any player who is legally inbounds catches or recovers a loose ball (3-2-3) that is on, above, or behind the opponent’s goal line; or

    the Referee awards a touchdown to a team that has been denied one by a palpably unfair act.

    SUPPLEMENTAL NOTES

    (1)

    (2)

    A.R. 11.1 A.R. 11.2

    Section 3

    The ball is automatically dead when it is in legal possession of a player and is on, above, or behind the opponent’s goal line.

    If a player attempts to catch a pass, the ball is not dead, and a touchdown is not scored, until the receiver completes the catch. See Rule 3, Section 2, Article 7.

    Third-and-goal on B2. Runner A1 goes to the goal line with the ball over the plane of the goal line. He is tackled, fumbles, and the defensive team recovers in the end zone.
    Ruling: Touchdown. The ball is automatically dead at the instant of legal player possession on the opponent’s goal line.

    Second-and-10 on B18. Runner A1 takes handoff and runs down the sideline toward the goal line with the ball in his outside arm. He crosses the goal line plane standing and gets his left foot down in the end zone with the ball to the outside of the pylon.
    Ruling: Touchdown. Part of the ball crossing over or inside the pylon only applies to an airborne runner who lands out of bounds. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

     And then, regardless of rule, there's this . . .

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Aaargh.  I'm posting the NCAA rules, because they are clearer, but I think they NFL rules are interpreted identically.  See the pink sections. 

    The issue is whether Smith was airborne or not when he went out of bounds.  Personally, I think he was stretching rather than launching, but I guess you could argue otherwise.  

    If he was stretching, the refs were right.  

     

     

     

    SECTION 2. Out of Bounds Player Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 1. a. A player is out of bounds when any part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).

    b. A player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

    Held Ball Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.

    Ball Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

    b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

    c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

    Out of Bounds at Forward Point

    ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).

    1. A touchdown is scored if the ball is inbounds and has broken the plane of the goal line (Rule 2-12-2) before or simultaneous to the ball carrier going out of bounds.

    2. A receiver who is in the opponent’s end zone and contacting the ground is credited with a completion if he reaches over the sideline or end line and catches a legal pass.

    3. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1- VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

    [/QUOTE]


    Jesooooos h chriiiist...     You are confusing OUT OF BOUNDS  with SPOTTING OF THE BALLL.

    WE alf'n know jeno landed out of bounds causing the dead ball  ..   STOP posting crap about what is out of bounds .  It is ignorant of wht this thread and 6 pages of analysis is about...  It is the spot of the f'n ball  as in the OP:

    " EXplain the forward progress ruling( ball spot) on this play."   EXPLAIN THE SPOT using the rule book.   ( not your seat of the pants interpretation....)   and also use common sense.

    RULE BOOK: "Ordinarily , the spot is where the ball crosses the sidelines..."  What is wrong with that sentence that has grown people  talking about players lunging or leaping or diving out of bounds to gain forward progress....????

    Its in plain f'n English and I'm going to bed...g'night but the bludgeoning will continue tomorrow AM I'm sure since some of  you people are thick headed....

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     And then, regardless of rule, there's this . . .

    [/QUOTE]

    Oh no! Looks like this ends the discussion. I guess we have our answer as to why Bill didn't challenge.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     And then, regardless of rule, there's this . . .

    [/QUOTE]
      

    THere's this...?    a bad angle picture that shows nothing...?    I see... lol  because you are looking at an angle it looks like Geno is hoding the ball over the GREEN (inbounds) field...!!!

    Then theres this:


     

    Better angle Huh?   shows ball out of bounds....   Ya think maybe since REFS botched this spot by almost  2 yards might have something to do with how you all (prolate, rtoolina,  and NYdinktroll ) are completely clueless as to the rule on the play...? 


    Think about it.

    Rule Book:

    " Note: Ordinarily the out-of-bounds spot is the spot where the ball crossed a sideline."

    Ordinarily means like EVERY ROUTINE 'ordinary' PLAY WHERE A PLAYER GOES OUT OF BOUNDS WITH THE BALL.  Like this play with Geno boy....  He goes out of bounds with the ball.  The ball crosses out of bounds around the 12 yard line near his feet.  During His entire lunge the ball is out of bounds after having crossed the sideline.

    Ball should have been spotted at the 12.  Had there been a replay ,BB would have challenged it and jets would have been forced to kick FG or go for it...  Could have changed the game.    Question of why there was no replay is another conspiracy loaded puzzle... 

    No-one in the booth questioned it since the spot is in the air ... it is a judgment...  you need the best angle...    this is why the feet are used for marking half the time.  your feet are pretty close to the ball if you are standing upright so the spot is close to the feet even though the ball is the relevant item the ball is harder to judge (since it is away from the ground where the lines are...ETC. and players are going full speed sometimes.

    Why was there no replay...?  Could have been a coincidence.  But judging from this thread and the absolute hogwash that has been posted PEOPLE including REFS have no clue what the rule is and how to judge it so it went by the merry wayside...

    oh well another f'd up loss to the clowns and their zebra counterparts in NY....  REally glad they were trounced by the Bills yesterday and GEEwhizNO the infant playing QB stunk beyond belief.

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Aaargh.  I'm posting the NCAA rules, because they are clearer, but I think they NFL rules are interpreted identically.  See the pink sections. 

    The issue is whether Smith was airborne or not when he went out of bounds.  Personally, I think he was stretching rather than launching, but I guess you could argue otherwise.  

    If he was stretching, the refs were right.  

     

     

     

    SECTION 2. Out of Bounds Player Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 1. a. A player is out of bounds when any part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game official, on or outside a boundary line (A.R. 4-2-1-I and II).

    b. A player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

    Held Ball Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 2. A ball in player possession is out of bounds when either the ball or any part of the ball carrier touches the ground or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line except another player or game official.

    Ball Out of Bounds

    ARTICLE 3. a. A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.

    b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.

    c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

    Out of Bounds at Forward Point

    ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I).

    1. A touchdown is scored if the ball is inbounds and has broken the plane of the goal line (Rule 2-12-2) before or simultaneous to the ball carrier going out of bounds.

    2. A receiver who is in the opponent’s end zone and contacting the ground is credited with a completion if he reaches over the sideline or end line and catches a legal pass.

    3. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1- VII) (Exception: When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

     




    Jesooooos h chriiiist...     You are confusing OUT OF BOUNDS  with SPOTTING OF THE BALLL.

     

    WE alf'n know jeno landed out of bounds causing the dead ball  ..   STOP posting crap about what is out of bounds .  It is ignorant of wht this thread and 6 pages of analysis is about...  It is the spot of the f'n ball  as in the OP:

    " EXplain the forward progress ruling( ball spot) on this play."   EXPLAIN THE SPOT using the rule book.   ( not your seat of the pants interpretation....)   and also use common sense.

    RULE BOOK: "Ordinarily , the spot is where the ball crosses the sidelines..."  What is wrong with that sentence that has grown people  talking about players lunging or leaping or diving out of bounds to gain forward progress....????

    Its in plain f'n English and I'm going to bed...g'night but the bludgeoning will continue tomorrow AM I'm sure since some of  you people are thick headed....



    Again, from the NCAA rulebook, because it's clearer than the NFL's:

     Forward Progress

    ARTICLE 2. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement by the ball carrier or airborne pass receiver of either team and applies to the position of the ball when it became dead by rule (Rules 4-1-3-a, b and p; Rules 4-2-1 and 4; and Rule 5-1-3-a Exception) (A.R. 5-1-3-I-VI and A.R. 8-2-1-I-IX) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R. 8-5-1-I). 

    Ball Declared Dead

    ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead:

    1. When it goes out of bounds other than a kick that scores a field goal after touching the uprights or crossbar, when a ball carrier is out of bounds, or when a ball carrier is so held that his forward progress is stopped. When in question, the ball is dead (A.R. 4-2-1-II). 

    Dead-Ball Spot

    ARTICLE 4. The dead-ball spot is the point at which the ball became dead.

    Out-of-Bounds Spot

    ARTICLE 6. The out-of-bounds spot is the point at which, according to the rule, the ball becomes dead because of going or being declared out of bounds.

    Inbounds Spot

    ARTICLE 7. The inbounds spot is the intersection of the nearer hash mark line and the yard line passing through either the dead-ball spot or the spot where a penalty leaves the ball in a side zone. 

     

    This is the way officials spot the ball in both college and the NFL and it's the way the officials spotted the ball on the Geno Smith play.  The paragraph you keep referencing in the NFL rule book is what they follow when a ball (not in possession) goes out of bounds.  But when the runner goes out of bounds (with the ball in his possession), they spot the ball based on the position of the ball at the moment the ball goes dead, which is when the runner officially becomes out of bounds.  The one exception, which is clearly specified in the college rulebook, but not in the NFL rulebook (except oddly, in the section on TDs), is when an airborne player goes out of bounds--that's when they spot the ball where it crossed the sideline; this rule is designed to prevent the leaping out of bounds you were worried about.

     

     Finally, I'm going to post this example from the 2013 NFL rulebook.  Note the last sentence--this is the most succinct statement of how referees spot the ball when a runner goes out of bounds. 

    Runner A1 touches the defensive team’s pylon with any part of his body.
    Ruling: Not out of bounds. The runner is not out of bounds until he touches anything other than a player, an official, or a pylon on or outside the boundary line. Position of the ball is determined by its position when the runner touches out of bounds.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    I can't believe this thread still lives...anyway, below is the college rule posted by prolate above. Can't be any more clear. Doesn't this kind of end the discussion? "When a ballcarrier is airborne," (meaning "in the air" or "not on the ground"...) "forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline." It doesn't say that forward progress is determined by the position of the ball when he lands out of bounds, does it? We can all read here, right? This is exactly what we're talking about here isn't it?

    1. ....When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    I can't believe this thread still lives...anyway, below is the college rule posted by prolate above. Can't be any more clear. Doesn't this kind of end the discussion? "When a ballcarrier is airborne," (meaning "in the air" or "not on the ground"...) "forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline." It doesn't say that forward progress is determined by the position of the ball when he lands out of bounds, does it? We can all read here, right? This is exactly what we're talking about here isn't it?

    1. ....When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

     



    Yes, if Smith was airborne, but I don't believe he was.  If you look at the picture Coolade posted, his right foot is clearly on the ground and in the grasp of the defender.  They really only use the "airborne rule" when a guy leaps out of bounds. The way the refs spotted the ball is the way they always do.  There's no conspiracy here.  There isn't even a mistake.  We see spots like this all the time near the first down marker.  I can't believe there's even a dispute about it.  In fact there was none until Coolade saw some film and decided he knew the rules better than the refs!

     

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    Asked you not to post dead ball stuff. it is irrelevant.  WHats tripping you up is this"ball is spotted when ball becomes dead stuff"  You think it is backing your position but it isn't.

    That situation they are referring to is when any part of a player toches the sideline,  ball dead and spotted right there bang.  Doesn't matter if hes standing on his head and his toenail scratches the sideline, but theyre talking about a player in the field of play.

    THe other routine part (which you now are conveniently leaving out) of the rule is about the routine spotting of the ball when player goes out of bounds.  Theres nothing there about whether player is falling forward , running, trottin, going backwards , crawling, bouncing on his azs, or running and leaping trying not to touch the ground ,  ...NOTHING except the ROUTINE ORDINARY going out of bounds with the ball (happens 25-30 times a game perhaps...?  In othr words...  going out of bounds is a simple rule, applies to everything.

    SIMPLE...  (but not for some people, apparently, and some refs....)  THe ball is spotted where it crosses the sidelines.   In this case , shown in the pictures at around the 12.  Confusing as all hell to people since Geno boy does his lunge move as if he is lunging for the pylon but unfortunately misses the field of play by 3 feet. 

    Wow this threw off half the forum, the Boadcast booth, Belichick, and most importantly the refs spotting the ball .  And me at first too...!  To the naked eye ,  you go "thats way short" , then they spot it and you go huh...?   game goes on 5 days later see play again on video and go ..." hey lets get the forum to analyze this.... "  Here we are 6 pages later...lol.

    Brilliant...  Maybe Geno has a future in deception/magic since he pulled off a fast one there and oh by the way he kinda sucks at QB based on yesterday.  wow...

     

    here is another quote from football instruction website:

     

    Answer
    Mario
    Your question has to do woth forward progress.  The question about the goalline extended is that it does extends in infinity outside the sidelines - there are differing philosophies about whether it is a TD and that depends on whether he volunatily went Out of bounds or was contacted by a player and knocked OB or if he is airborne. If the runner is airborne as he goes over the sideline. Forward progress is where the ball crosses the sideline, not where the ball is when the runner first touches out of bounds.  The forward progress spot in your question is the spot where the ball intersects with the sideline.    

     

    That is exactly what this play is about.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I can't believe this thread still lives...anyway, below is the college rule posted by prolate above. Can't be any more clear. Doesn't this kind of end the discussion? "When a ballcarrier is airborne," (meaning "in the air" or "not on the ground"...) "forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline." It doesn't say that forward progress is determined by the position of the ball when he lands out of bounds, does it? We can all read here, right? This is exactly what we're talking about here isn't it?

    1. ....When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

    [/QUOTE]


    THanks , muzz... YOur clarity should end this discussion with an audible light going on in the brains of all the people who have not gotten it until now.  "CLICK"   There I think I heard the light going on....

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    I can't believe this thread still lives...anyway, below is the college rule posted by prolate above. Can't be any more clear. Doesn't this kind of end the discussion? "When a ballcarrier is airborne," (meaning "in the air" or "not on the ground"...) "forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline." It doesn't say that forward progress is determined by the position of the ball when he lands out of bounds, does it? We can all read here, right? This is exactly what we're talking about here isn't it?

    1. ....When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

     



    Yes, if Smith was airborne, but I don't believe he was.  If you look at the picture Coolade posted, his right foot is clearly on the ground and in the grasp of the defender.  They really only use the "airborne rule" when a guy leaps out of bounds. The way the refs spotted the ball is the way they always do.  There's no conspiracy here.  There isn't even a mistake.  We see spots like this all the time near the first down marker.  I can't believe there's even a dispute about it.  In fact there was none until Coolade saw some film and decided he knew the rules better than the refs!

     

    [/QUOTE]

    So then, your position is that you can lunge and extend the ball OB and get credit for that yardage, but you can't jump? Seriously, you think there's a rule that allows the ballcarrier to get credit for yardage that occurs entirely OB?  I'm telling you there isn't, and I'm 100% sure of it. But we're not going to resolve this apparently.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    Wow.   Still going on.

    I thought it was interesting that last night's Denver-KC game had a similar play.   I said similar, not identical.  Decker lunged toward the 1st down marker while being forced OOB.  Initially he was ruled short.   Then after review they gave him the 1st down.

    While the play was in lengthy review Collinsworth (this guy is not a dummy) said he had heard over the years that there are 2 sets of rules depending on whether a player is going OOB at an angle or running closer to parallel to the sideline.   That's not from a transcript - it's from my memory.  Pretty close to what he said.  So, anyone who thinks it's a simple to understand rule needs to know that guys that have played in the league aren't so convinced it's so clear cut.

    And not to stir things up but the pink section from the College rules is not the same wording in the NFL Rule Book.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    I can't believe this thread still lives...anyway, below is the college rule posted by prolate above. Can't be any more clear. Doesn't this kind of end the discussion? "When a ballcarrier is airborne," (meaning "in the air" or "not on the ground"...) "forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline." It doesn't say that forward progress is determined by the position of the ball when he lands out of bounds, does it? We can all read here, right? This is exactly what we're talking about here isn't it?

    1. ....When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline (A.R. 8-2-1-II-III and V-IX). 

     



    Yes, if Smith was airborne, but I don't believe he was.  If you look at the picture Coolade posted, his right foot is clearly on the ground and in the grasp of the defender.  They really only use the "airborne rule" when a guy leaps out of bounds. The way the refs spotted the ball is the way they always do.  There's no conspiracy here.  There isn't even a mistake.  We see spots like this all the time near the first down marker.  I can't believe there's even a dispute about it.  In fact there was none until Coolade saw some film and decided he knew the rules better than the refs!

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    coolade sure knows the rules better than prolate...  apparently.  This thread was intended for clarification, not dispute .  It has been clarified. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Wow.   Still going on.

    I thought it was interesting that last night's Denver-KC game had a similar play.   I said similar, not identical.  Decker lunged toward the 1st down marker while being forced OOB.  Initially he was ruled short.   Then after review they gave him the 1st down.

    While the play was in lengthy review Collinsworth (this guy is not a dummy) said he had heard over the years that there are 2 sets of rules depending on whether a player is going OOB at an angle or running closer to parallel to the sideline.   That's not from a transcript - it's from my memory.  Pretty close to what he said.  So, anyone who thinks it's a simple to understand rule needs to know that guys that have played in the league aren't so convinced it's so clear cut.

    [quote]

    So the NFL keeps it intentionally ambiguous for the refs to call whatever they want...?  That's how it appears, since the rulebook could be a lot clearer with diagrams etc....!  The thing that kills me is the common sense part though...  " how can you give forward progress outside the field of play ..?"   Its like saying ... Go ahead and leap and dive out of bounds and we will square up your landing spot to determine where to spot it...  lol

    Theres your other proof .  You never see a ref out of bounds marking a spot.  I think what Collinsworth is alluding to is that since it is an estimation or judgment as to where the ball crosses the invisible plane, there is a lot of leeway in the call or spot.  This is exactly what is probably going on.  REfs can ref the situation.  Geno diving ...  give him a good spot,  they need to keep the drive going,  etc.  That kind of bullsh1t.

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    I do know a receiver can tiptoe along the sideline with the ball in his outside hand and held out over the boundary line and run the entire field if he wants.  Unless he steps out, the fact that the ball is over the boundary line makes no difference.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I do know a receiver can tiptoe along the sideline with the ball in his outside hand and held out over the boundary line and run the entire field if he wants.  Unless he steps out, the fact that the ball is over the boundary line makes no difference.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That will never happen so it doesnt need to be in the rules .  A player would never have the need to hold a ball intentionally over the sideline.  It's a kooky example that rtuilina first brought up.  The rule is there as a sensible way to spt the ball on evry situation of player leaving the field.

    Simple ... leave the field----ball spotted at that moment crossing the sideline....  Doesn't matter if you are lunging or what not.  STAy INBOUNDS if you want to gain yardage....  !!!!!  simple beyond belief .  Same thing diving for the pylon...    PLease just figure it out.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    Wow.   Still going on.

    I thought it was interesting that last night's Denver-KC game had a similar play.   I said similar, not identical.  Decker lunged toward the 1st down marker while being forced OOB.  Initially he was ruled short.   Then after review they gave him the 1st down.

    While the play was in lengthy review Collinsworth (this guy is not a dummy) said he had heard over the years that there are 2 sets of rules depending on whether a player is going OOB at an angle or running closer to parallel to the sideline.   That's not from a transcript - it's from my memory.  Pretty close to what he said.  So, anyone who thinks it's a simple to understand rule needs to know that guys that have played in the league aren't so convinced it's so clear cut.

    And not to stir things up but the pink section from the College rules is not the same wording in the NFL Rule Book.



    This was a similar play that was spotted (after review) pretty much the same as the Geno Smith play. Angles are bit hard to tell, but in both cases the ball seems to be extended forward while already past the "plane" of the sideline, but before the player has actually touched the ground out of bounds.  In both cases, the refs gave the player the first down.  

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MeadowlandMike. Show MeadowlandMike's posts

    Re: Explain the ball f. progress ruling on this play

    In response to coolade2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I do know a receiver can tiptoe along the sideline with the ball in his outside hand and held out over the boundary line and run the entire field if he wants.  Unless he steps out, the fact that the ball is over the boundary line makes no difference.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That will never happen so it doesnt need to be in the rules .  A player would never have the need to hold a ball intentionally over the sideline.  It's a kooky example that rtuilina first brought up.  The rule is there as a sensible way to spt the ball on evry situation of player leaving the field.

    Simple ... leave the field----ball spotted at that moment crossing the sideline....  Doesn't matter if you are lunging or what not.  STAy INBOUNDS if you want to gain yardage....  !!!!!  simple beyond belief .  Same thing diving for the pylon...    PLease just figure it out.

    [/QUOTE]

    Figure what out?  This was figured out weeks ago.

     

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