Fire Bill O'Brien!

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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    Speaking of whiny b*tch threads
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : That's what we're told and always believed, yes. You act like what you just said is the stats quo and factual. We don't know. That's the point. I go bby what I see.   O'Brien didn't slap Moss until Week 4 last year. He was dealt, NE ran more, Brady was forced to do so without staring down Moss, BB saw this and stepped in wiht the trade. Fast forward to this year. Gronk is Moss. The question is, do we think we'll see a beastly Gronk every week like we saw on Sunday? Could it be that O'Brien lost it due to the fact Brady overruled O'Brien's play calll at the line (a run) possibly just like in Buffalo before half, and the INT on a bad throw as Brady lectured Kid N Play? Could it be? Yes, it absolutely could be. This isn't your right and I am wrong or vice versa. This is a pattenr of Brady loving to throw, ignoring the run and then us hearing DUngy or Harrison coddle Brady and make excuses for him as he throws poorly or makes poor decisions. There is no DOUBT IN MY MIND that Brady has autonomy to overrule at the line because I knew he chooses which play he wants to run.  I'd be he runs the first pllay called in most of the time, the question is, what is the second or third plays O'Brien offers up as well? Are they passes or runs?  Again, we'll never know, but stop acting like Brady doesn't get last say at the line, because it's very highly likely he does. Brady loved McDaniels and his pass happy offense. It got us nothing in SB 42. It got us nothing last January.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKingII[/QUOTE]

    Russ,
    I guess anything is possible, and I do agree Brady gets some leeway in terms of the play at the line. However, for all we know, it could completley be the other way around. Meaning, OB/BB are calling for more passes, and Brady in turn is changing the play at the line to call a run. Again, since we can't listen to the plays called in, and see how TB runs them, we are all just speculating.

    To say "this is a pattern" of Brady loving to throw and ignoring OB/BB is all just specualation. You don't know, and neither do I.

    The problem is Brady has to throw and put points on the board in a big way if we have any chance of winning. Your D is not getting it done for Brady to just line up and take time off the clock and know the D is going to help secure the win. Of course you can point to Mayo's interception last week as the Defense bailing the Offense out, but that is one play in the larger context of the game, in which your D made another mediocre QB look like Rodgers or Brees, and gave up 127 rushing yards to boot.

    I'm not defending Brady on the poor throw, because he had many that day, but I also know he and this offense are our best chance to win and are going to make mistakes because they want to score on every drive and are pass heavy.
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    To be fair, underwood WAS open, untill he got held for a no called PI in the endzone.
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : ok guys. those who played football will already know this. you maybe have heard that children like discipline (no not the kind masked as discipline that is physical violence), having boundaries and being told right from wrong, adn when they cross the liine or mess up.. players like this too, even when they protest. what obrian did was be a coach. yes he got heated, and went overboard when brady hollered back (also called insubordination). all coaches lose it like that at times, esp. when the tutelage is not being received. and yes bb went over, when bill obrian got out of control, and brought him back, also the job of fellow coaches, even if the head coach is losing it - if it's during a game anyway(otherwise the head coach will take it as far as their temper takes it typically.  so obrian was being a coach. a good thing. regardless of how good or bad a job he does calling a game or overall. bb did his job and calmed him down when he got carried away. tb did his job, shutting up after a point and later publicly saying it he was "being coached". being coached makes you better. even if you are great. so job well done. i suggest to you most any football player or coach you see this week speak about it, and knowledgeable reporters will say something similar or the same thing i just did. no player is above a coach and every player and every coach has their role. everyone did theirs in this situation.
    Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]

    I never had a coach act like O'Brien did.  Sure, I have had coaches get mad and yell but never like O'Brien did.  The dude was out of control screaming, tearing himself loose from those holding him back in order to scream and continue his tantrum., he was out of control.  He wasn't coaching he was having a little kid tantrum.  Really, thats how you coach your superstar?  Imagine the Colts OC acting like that to Manning, that coach would be gone!!! 
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    I watched the replay again of the route Underwood ran, he ran a bad, sloppy route. Not a good clean route to beging with.  I really believe if Welker ran that route it's a TD. 
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]True.  Another example of us being hosed again by obvious calls we don't get. I guess now is a good time to mention the bogus Wilfork and Carter roughings which handed Washington 10 free points. Tired of that crap, too.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKingII[/QUOTE]

    King, everyone gets bad calls - Santana Moss said that Edelman was holding him all game and getting away with it and then he gets called for interference on tying TD catch!

    How do you excuse OB from responsibility as OC for calling idiotic spread - empty backfield with seond and 2 - at least have a one back set to keep them guessing!  Don't blame Tom for this inept scheme.  Give Law Firm the rock - he won't fumble - and he would have got the TD for us and killed some clock time.

    The arguing is passion and nothing wrong with that - the stupid playcalling should get OB canned.
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : Good question... Just as relevant would be "who"s decision was it to have Woodhead be your leading rusher on the day with 8 carries?" The only reason Washington was in this game was Roy Helu's 27 carries for 126 yards.  For those that remember my draft thread I wanted the Pats to take Helu but that's neither here nor there... Again, if we're saving Ridely and Law Firm and we run them at least 50% of the time in the playoffs then all this hand wringing and complaining will be for nothing.  My concern is that I've felt this way since our last championship after Weis left and none of these O coordinators since has gotten it.  Treat Brady like you have to protect him, run the ball a lot and he will thrive. I suppose I don't care what you do in the regular season, run it in the playoffs!!
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    I hold out hope for this, that maybe we are saving Chad O (who I think has looked good on his 4-6 reps per game we allow him) and the runningbacks for the playoffs as to throw a wrench into a defense's ability to game plan against out 1 trick pony offense.

    The problem is I don't believe we can ignore 1 half of our offense then suddenly turn it on come playoff time. We will abandon the run as we have for the past 5 years. Our defense will not pitch a shutout and we will get that desperate look in our eye and start going pass heavy at the 1st sign of adversity.(a sign of an inexperienced O coordinator for sure)

    Roy Helu certainly looked good gashing us all day and keeping the ball out of our hands as much as he could....man I wish we could do that to help protect our defense, oh well I guess that would take a commitment to running the football...something that is dead in N.E
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : Well, that is the big question. Why invest so much in the posiiton of RB early in the draft if you aren't going to utilize them? Some will say we are prepping them for next year and years to come, but I don't buy it. When you invest a 2nd and 3rd rounder in a position of need, and clearly don't have a #1 killer back that is going to take most of the reps, I think you have to sprinkle in Vereen and Ridley more often even if that means taking reps from Faulk, Woody and BJGE. I've seen enough to make me believe that Vereen can be an X factor for this team if used correctly in the playoffs. He has speed, can get outside, and also makes a more than capable receiver. He NEEDS to get reps now however. My fear is BB has waited to long to properly integrate him into the offense. I think we are now reliant on Faulk, Woody and BJGE as our backfield come playoff time.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    RB is one of the few positions I can say coming out of the draft they can start almost right away. RB is such a translatable position that the only major hurdle is getting use to the speed of the Pro's vs the college game. Yes the blocking schemes are more complex but again you can't get use to either the speed or recognizing rushers without the proper in game reps. That's something you can't get from practice. So, holding them out right now shows me they just aren't ready or the coaches have no trust in them, which is not a good sign for an RB

    Vereen is an X factor. This makes you wonder why he is inactive so often. Does he have a case of the fumbles in practice (much like Faulk early in his career)? Is his attitude not right? Can he not pick up rushers, even in practice? There is something we don't know about otherwise the blame goes squarely on the coaching staff for lack of player development (something I think has been an issue since the great coaching staff started breaking up in 05').

    What kills me is that we run a running back by committee offense. This means you mix and match different running backs and have to disguise the runs with passes, screens, and play action just as much as the runs setup up the same. You have to play to your RB's strengths and can't become formulaic.

    For example:

    BJGE - power back: He can't cut quick and he's not fast. He can wear down D's with strong power running. Best times to use him is the first half, short yards, and when you need to kill clock. He should never be used to run outside the T's when you need the yards. His best running plays are dives in the A or B  gaps He won't catch many passes except for when he can squat so he should only be used as a dump off or flip receiver close to the line. You disguise him by using play action screens, 1st down play action, and draws on 2nd and long. This puts a question into the D's head if he's a late threat or a fake so they can't crowd the line allowing the OL the get a better push on power runs

    Woodhead - skat back: He's fast, can make quick cuts, and has good receiving hands. He's not overly powerful and will go down if shoulder tackled. Best times to use him are no huddle/hurry up, and change of pace in 3rd and 4th after BJGE wears down the D or if they are winded. His best runs come from sweeps, traps, and off T cut backs. To disguise him run delayed draws, delayed flat releases, screens, and reverse. The reverse prevents the D from overloading the strong side while the the screens and delayed flats remove a D player from the field essential just to watch him. Delayed draws set the D back on their heels questioning if he going to get a clean release with developed gaps to make cuts

    I'm not a coach by any means but it seems obvious to me the best way to use our backs and they aren't being used properly most of the time. When they are though it seems like the O is very fluent and no team can stop the O
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien! : That's what we're told and always believed, yes. You act like what you just said is the stats quo and factual. We don't know. That's the point. I go bby what I see.   O'Brien didn't slap Moss until Week 4 last year. He was dealt, NE ran more, Brady was forced to do so without staring down Moss, BB saw this and stepped in wiht the trade. Fast forward to this year. Gronk is Moss. The question is, do we think we'll see a beastly Gronk every week like we saw on Sunday? Could it be that O'Brien lost it due to the fact Brady overruled O'Brien's play calll at the line (a run) possibly just like in Buffalo before half, and the INT on a bad throw as Brady lectured Kid N Play? Could it be? Yes, it absolutely could be. This isn't your right and I am wrong or vice versa. This is a pattenr of Brady loving to throw, ignoring the run and then us hearing DUngy or Harrison coddle Brady and make excuses for him as he throws poorly or makes poor decisions. There is no DOUBT IN MY MIND that Brady has autonomy to overrule at the line because I knew he chooses which play he wants to run.  I'd be he runs the first pllay called in most of the time, the question is, what is the second or third plays O'Brien offers up as well? Are they passes or runs?  Again, we'll never know, but stop acting like Brady doesn't get last say at the line, because it's very highly likely he does. Brady loved McDaniels and his pass happy offense. It got us nothing in SB 42. It got us nothing last January.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKingII[/QUOTE]

    Rusty you have read the same books that I have. You know that BB sets the game plan, he decides what way we will attack a defense. He listens to Brady's ideas as he should since Brady is the best Qb in the game.

    But to suggest that Brady is over ruling play calls in the huddle in a Steamin Willie Beamin type fashion is ludicrous to me. You know BB would never allow any QB to undermine him in any way. Not on his watch.

    We saw in the latest sound FX bit BB telling Billy to throw it on the Colts. It is the philosophy for our offense right now. They want to throw, and ignore the run. I don't agree with it, but it is certainly not Brady's fault.

    At the same time don't you think Brady is doing an absolutely fantastic job producing results in a one dimensional offense where every defense knows what we will do and still can't really stop us? That was his 1st pick in 200 attempts, thats pretty good.

    Anyway, I really don't like ignorance of the offense, but I don't blame Brady in the least bit. Obrien calls the plays BB sets the game plan and also talks to OB often throughout the game.

    The only thing Brady should be blamed for is forcing the throw, but it was clear our plan was to throw and try to score a td, when it should have been to run out clock and settle for a fg if we didn't get in. That is a failure by the coaching staff wouldn't you agree?


     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]I like to go to the source. Even though O'Brien overreacted, the question is WHY? Always ask why. Pretend it's not Brady. Pretend it's Joe Blow QB tossing an awful and pointless INT in the end zone to seal a game, and then ask why the QB is discussing route running issues, when there aren't any. Maybe O'Brien is sick and tired of going to bat for Brady in the press after seeing another bad throw with an excuse tied to it? I make fun of Sanchez for bad throws and say he stinks.  Why is Brady not held accountable for bad throws.? Also, let's be clear, this isn't just one here or there. This is a game littered with them, pretty much every week. He was more accurate in 2006 with Caldwell here than he is now.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKingII[/QUOTE]

    It was his 1st INT in 200 pass attempts. How many bad throws could you have seen?
     
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    The over-reliance on the shotgun/passing game will rear its ugly head at the wrong time I am afraid. It was almost their undoing Sunday if not for a great individual play by Mayo off of a pass that shouldn't have been dropped.  It was a fluke.

    If that makes me negative or sound like I'm second guessing a professional OC, then oh well.  As has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, how did the Pats' O NOT run three times, milk the clock and come away with a minimum of 3 points on their last drive?  Go up two scores instead of trying to thread the needle to Underwood.  Yeah, I want the ball in Brady's hands, but there are times when running the ball makes too much sense. 

    If Brady has a bad game come playoff time, I am worried for this team.  Blast away at my post, but I know others agree.         
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE]The over-reliance on the shotgun/passing game will rear its ugly head at the wrong time I am afraid. It was almost their undoing Sunday if not for a great individual play by Mayo off of a pass that shouldn't have been dropped.  It was a fluke. If that makes me negative or like I'm second guessing a professional OC, then oh well.  As has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, how did the Pats' O NOT run three times, milk the clock and come away with a minimum of 3 points on their last drive?  Go up two scores instead of trying to thread the needle to Underwood.  Yeah, I want the ball in Brady's hands, but there are times when running the ball makes too much sense.  If Brady has a bad game come playoff time, I am worried for this team.  Blast away at my post, but I know others agree.         
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn[/QUOTE]

    To me this is the real story here. INEXCUSABLE and a failure on the coaching staff 100%. It could have been the difference in the game. It is coaching 101 and we failed. You cannot throw the ball in that situation. The clock is on your side, the score is on your side. The only thing you can do to give the other team a chance to win is throw the ball and risk an INT. Abysmal.
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    well in this game... a funk ton, constantly late throws, the one that sailed over woodhead by 4 or so feet, throwing it at gronks feet in the end zone,
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!


    Can't agree more Cables. I think most would as well.

    I do think you are incorrect however on OB. To call him professional is giving him way too much credit.

    Seems to me that OB/BB have a case of the Red Head Jesus, or more specifically, Jason Garrett in critical situations.
     
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    Re: Fire Bill O'Brien!

    In Response to Fire Bill O'Brien!:
    [QUOTE] Bill O'Brien has shown the world that he is a complete moron.  And a Moron should not be the offensive coordinator for the New England Patriots! My reasons: 1. Sticking up for T. Underwood over Brady.  If Bill isn't smart enough to tell the difference between a Hall of fame QB and a scrub like Underwood, he's a moron. 2.  Understanding that Brady has taken the Pats to four superbowls with two other offensive coordinators before his dumb a** cam to New England. 3. The fact that The Pats would not lose a step if Bill O'Brien was here or not, but would be one of the worst teams in the NFL if Brady were not. So fire Bill O'Brien and get a real offensive coordinator, this guy is way too stupid.
    Posted by Grogan77[/QUOTE]

    Did Underwood force the pass?

    Yes, Brady is a 3x SB winner - but he hasn't won one since 2004 AND it is not even relevant regarding the poor choice of throwing to Underwood

    I agree, however, that OB should be fired - just because he's not doing such a great job calling offensive plays.  The X factor is - what % of calls does OB actually call....and how much does Brady call.  Plus, there are usually a number of options for pass plays - so, Brady still is accountable for executing those plays.

    so, should brady be "fired" too?

     
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