Help me out here

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from neackerwitz. Show neackerwitz's posts

    Help me out here

    For the last two seasons Ive been trying to explain to people that the Patriots secondary is not as bad as most people think it is.  I base this on two things.

    1.  Lack of pass rush which is obvious.

    2.  The offense.  The Patriots more often then not it seems to me put up so many points so quickly into games that it forces most teams to abandon their running attack and air it out just so they can give themselves a chance. 

    Im wondering if I am crazy or is there anyone who can back up my theory with actual statistics?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    1) You are correct sir (in my best Ed McMan voice). When we had a pass rush this season the secondary was affective. When the pass rush was inconsistent and non-existent then the secondary feel apart. This tells me the secondary is average at best as it is completely dependant on the DL's ability to get to the QB instead of being able to provide enough coverage to allow for coverage sacks

    2) Maybe not so much. While a strong O typically results in opponents dropping the running game and moving towards a passing game what we've seen the last couple of years is two fold. 
    • teams game plans going in was passing on the Pats with success early in games.  
    • Even late into games the Pats weren't always blowing out opponents and in fact a the majority of games the Pats lost they were never ahead or behind by more then a score heading into the 4th

    So were the Pats as bad as people thought? Well yes and no. It's not as bad as some people think but it also can't be explained away but jst saying lack of pass rush or the O
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    They are not world class bad which many were saying based on the stats. And they were certainly better late in the year and in the playoffs. Especially when they were generating a pass rush.

    BUT - they were just not that good. They could not get the other team's O off the field when they really had to. Not that they didnt have some good series in the second half of the playoff games but not enough and just gave up one important play after another.

    STOP rationalizing. STOP trying to pretend they are good enough. OK they are not as bad as many made out. ANd are better when you give them support. But they just are not good enough with the players they have now.

    I say this without knowing whether Dowling will in fact pan out. Without knowing whether McCourty will either bounce back from a down year or, gien a full off season program, become a solid FS. Or will one of the others, Arrington, Moore? make strides?

    You can hope but you can't count on these things. You have to be realistic. They need to add some talent back there either through FA or draft or trade or any combination of the above.

    And yes they need to continue to upgrade pass rush.

    Sorry but go back and take a look at the Ds of the SB winning years. Compare. See where we now fall short of those teams. Then go out and bring this team up to that old standard. If you do you will be surprised at how it helps the O. Maybe not in setting records for yards or points but the O will be able to use a running game, be able to play relaxed, be able to play mistake free because they are not needing to be PERFECT on every play, every series.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    The secondary would definitely benefit from a consistent pass rush (meaning one that doesn't look overpowering at times but more often looks absent).  With respect to the secondary itself:  need help at safety, need better man coverage, personnel upgrades wouldn't hurt.  They are neither world-class bad nor particularly good but I agree; they are effective when the Pats put pressure on the passer.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hulk. Show hulk's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    I also agree to a point.  One other issue that may have affected them was to rotating of players in the backfield.  To me, there was a lack of unity.  Working together, is just as vital for the secondary, as it is for Brady and his recieving corps.  The secondary needs to work together throughout the preseason, as well as, the regular season and the playoffs.  I think our young secondary just don't know how to play together.  I think with an improved pass rush and an entire off season, the secondary should have an improved confidence.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mar10. Show mar10's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    In Response to Re: Help me out here:
    [QUOTE]They are not world class bad which many were saying based on the stats. And they were certainly better late in the year and in the playoffs. Especially when they were generating a pass rush. BUT - they were just not that good. They could not get the other team's O off the field when they really had to. Not that they didnt have some good series in the second half of the playoff games but not enough and just gave up one important play after another. STOP rationalizing. STOP trying to pretend they are good enough. OK they are not as bad as many made out. ANd are better when you give them support. But they just are not good enough with the players they have now. I say this without knowing whether Dowling will in fact pan out. Without knowing whether McCourty will either bounce back from a down year or, gien a full off season program, become a solid FS. Or will one of the others, Arrington, Moore? make strides? You can hope but you can't count on these things. You have to be realistic. They need to add some talent back there either through FA or draft or trade or any combination of the above. And yes they need to continue to upgrade pass rush. Sorry but go back and take a look at the Ds of the SB winning years. Compare. See where we now fall short of those teams. Then go out and bring this team up to that old standard. If you do you will be surprised at how it helps the O. Maybe not in setting records for yards or points but the O will be able to use a running game, be able to play relaxed, be able to play mistake free because they are not needing to be PERFECT on every play, every series.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mar10. Show mar10's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    In Response to Re: Help me out here:
    [QUOTE]They are not world class bad which many were saying based on the stats. And they were certainly better late in the year and in the playoffs. Especially when they were generating a pass rush. BUT - they were just not that good. They could not get the other team's O off the field when they really had to. Not that they didnt have some good series in the second half of the playoff games but not enough and just gave up one important play after another. STOP rationalizing. STOP trying to pretend they are good enough. OK they are not as bad as many made out. ANd are better when you give them support. But they just are not good enough with the players they have now. I say this without knowing whether Dowling will in fact pan out. Without knowing whether McCourty will either bounce back from a down year or, gien a full off season program, become a solid FS. Or will one of the others, Arrington, Moore? make strides? You can hope but you can't count on these things. You have to be realistic. They need to add some talent back there either through FA or draft or trade or any combination of the above. And yes they need to continue to upgrade pass rush. Sorry but go back and take a look at the Ds of the SB winning years. Compare. See where we now fall short of those teams. Then go out and bring this team up to that old standard. If you do you will be surprised at how it helps the O. Maybe not in setting records for yards or points but the O will be able to use a running game, be able to play relaxed, be able to play mistake free because they are not needing to be PERFECT on every play, every series.
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    Not defending this year's db's but PLEASE stop using Pat's superbowl winning db's as a comparison.  The rules are enforced much differently now, in part due to that groups style of play (Colts/Polian).  Any comparisons just are not fair.  If you insist on the comparisons to those db's then perhaps you should compare the front sevens of those teams as well.  Other than Vince there are no playmakers on the front seven... maybe mayo. There is no Willie, Teddy, Vrabel, Seymor, Warren.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    DB is gradually becoming the second most difficult position to play (after QB). The Pats have a slight disadvantage in that they have a very young secondary. An anemic pass rush doesn't help much. Like most BB defenses the Pats D is predicated on situational football. Teams can rack up yardage, but the D has to play well in the red zone and better on 3rd and longs. The current enforced rules favor the receiver over the DB. The Pats seem to have a D that is able to play well for two quarters as opposed to a dominant defense capable of playing well for 4 quarters. The Pats have young DBs that lack experience, but they should get better over time. Playing DB in the NFL can be difficult; instead of facing a WR that is stronger and faster once a month in college you face a wide out that is faster and stronger every week. And opposing offenses can easily exploit weaknesses in the pass D if they have to play catch up.

    The gameplan against the Pats can be simple. Keep Brady off the field and keep the offense from getting its timing down by playing physical or establishing an effective pass rush (which was the simplified blueprint for how the Pats D played against Indy in the AFCCG). The Steelers loss was a TOP loss. The Pats D played a near perfect road game, but the Steelers kept the D on the field and Brady off the field. The issue is: if Brady has a clunker is the D capable of winning the game for us. This D is very young and should improve over time.  Every team is different and the gameplan should illustrate and exploit the opposing D's weaknesses. I realise this sounds simple, but like any defense you have to have the personel to execute the gameplan. This defense seems to be short a couple of impact players.

    Still think the Pats could benefit from a successful run game. Does not necessarily mean they should pay huge money to sign a feature back.

    The Pats have young players who are either still learning the system (both D and O are fairly complex) or have yet to contribute significantly. I'd say Ridley, Vereen,  and Dowling have potential, but the sample is either very small or they have experienced injuries. The Pats still have a core of young players who are very good starters (Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Vollmer, Solder, McCourty, Mayo), but could still use a few roster spots to improve at various positions (CB/OLB/DE). Free agency and the draft could obviously help here.

    The difference is Brady. The Pats might rebuild, but they rebuild knowing they have stability at QB position. And that's an understatement. Thus the Pats can go 12-4 or 13-3 while young personel learns the new system. They also have some great coaches (BB, Scar, Johnson)to coach up players.

    This team is still only two or three players away from being dominant, whereas, most teams are 5 or 6 players away from being legit contenders and most are still looking for a franchise QB. The fact that Pats organization is a contender year after year is testament to the people that run the organization.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    Hi,  my name is Devin McCourty and I am here to squash your argument as I played the worse of any cb's in patriots history the same year we improved our pass rush.

    Hope this helps... tee-hee.

    Carry on
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    In Response to Re: Help me out here:
    [QUOTE]Hi,  my name is Devin McCourty and I am here to squash your argument as I played the worse of any cb's in patriots history the same year we improved our pass rush. Hope this helps... tee-hee. Carry on
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]

    The problem seems to be that the Pats have players that should be depth guys (nickle and dime guys or sub packages) as opposed to legitimate starters at all three levels of the D. And yeah McCourty had a bad year. They can't all be Mike Haynes.

    What's funny is Rusty expected McCourty to morph into Revis Part II. That never happened. And was a an unrealistic expectation to begin with. Fork and Mayo might be the only defensive players that other teams would covet.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    McCourty could still be a solid 1 or 2 CB. It is interesting but many players take a step back in the sophmore season and I think it was almost expected due to the lack of a regular offseason.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Help me out here

    We shall see. Noone else seemed to be affected by it the way # 32 was.

    I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he was bothered by something last year.

    The good thing is we SAW the talent. We saw the ability to do everything a great CB has to do, so we just need to find a way to get him bck to that. He needs some INT's to build his confidence. He didnt get one until very late last year.

    CB is the hardest defensive position to play. You have to be thick skinned and have a short memory.
     

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