Historically a strong draft?

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    Historically a strong draft?

     Every NFL draft develops an identity of its own and this draft is no exception.  The strength of this draft appears to be in the "front 7" as well as the receiving corps.  It has been suggested that some rare talent could be acquired and these supposed "sure bets" require only the COMBINE numbers for confirmation.

    As regards the Pats, Kraft himself sounded excited that the Pats had TWO 1st and TWO second round selections where the pickings seem especially intriguing. What exactly are the rumors suggesting?

    Is it QUANTITY or  QUALITY that's generating the enthusiasm?  We recognize that a premiere QB or two might change a franchise's future and that the Offensive line has some very choice selections.  With the new rules being so favorable for the receivers perhaps good prospects now look even better?

    Is it the depth (or lack of separation between players) that's so confounding the  gurus or are we truly about to witness the cusp of greatness in this draft class?

    As for defensive linemen, are we buoyed by "potential" more than performance or stats or is it the measurables (size/speed/athleticism) that seem so different?

    Is this draft as special as some would have us believe?
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    Not sure if front 7 is a huge strength. It's got some good talent in the 20-64 pick range but not what I would consider overall strong compared to other years. It doesn't have a lot of top 15 talent compared to last year and doesn't have the depth to really go beyond the mid 3rd.

    The biggest strengths in this draft are the CB's and WR's
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    In Response to Re: Historically a strong draft?:
    [QUOTE]Not sure if front 7 is a huge strength. It's got some good talent in the 20-64 pick range but not what I would consider overall strong compared to other years. It doesn't have a lot of top 15 talent compared to last year and doesn't have the depth to really go beyond the mid 3rd. The biggest strengths in this draft are the CB's and WR's
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!  If we arbitrarily take Walterfootball Draft selections as a guide, of the first 20 mock draft picks, 5 are either OL or DL selections making 10/20 in the front 7. The WR and CB selections each account for 3 making them 6/20.  Of course two QBs make it 2/20 etc.

    I think what the excitement is about as regards the WR is the SIZE/Speed/Athleticism in the group as a whole as well as the overall talent as regards the top 50.

    As regards OL, Matt Kalil has been described as...perhaps....the BEST OT in the past 10 years...so perhaps the elation is about the number of elite performers in the first round.

    I wonder if some of the DL are "reaches" relative to the BPA since so many teams lack dominant defensive linemen.
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    In Response to Re: Historically a strong draft?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Historically a strong draft? : Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!  If we arbitrarily take Walterfootball Draft selections as a guide, of the first 20 mock draft picks, 5 are either OL or DL selections making 10/20 in the front 7. The WR and CB selections each account for 3 making them 6/20.  Of course two QBs make it 2/20 etc. I think what the excitement is about as regards the WR is the SIZE/Speed/Athleticism in the group as a whole as well as the overall talent as regards the top 50. As regards OL, Matt Kalil has been described as...perhaps....the BEST OT in the past 10 years...so perhaps the elation is about the number of elite performers in the first round. I wonder if some of the DL are "reaches" relative to the BPA since so many teams lack dominant defensive linemen.
    Posted by moskk[/QUOTE]

    the lines have historically always performed well early in drafts. Mainly because they are the easiest to predict and one of the most vital positions on the team (not named QB). Also when you are talking front 7 and OL right there you have over half the possible positions on the field for the O and D combined so there are bound to be more players chosen at those position just by shear volume. When I look at strength of draft I compare the total talent and depth of positions from draft to draft not positions within the draft. Compared to last year the talent in the front 7 doesn't match last year nor does the depth of talent. However, CB's and WR's compared to former years have a number of players that might go later in the draft then in past years just because of the depth and talent at that position.

    For example Floyd is considered the 3rd or even 4th best WR in the draft (Blackmon, Wright, and Jeffery 'if he runs in the 4.5's' are all considered comparable if not better talents).
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    In Response to Historically a strong draft?:
    [QUOTE] Every NFL draft develops an identity of its own and this draft is no exception.  The strength of this draft appears to be in the "front 7" as well as the receiving corps.  It has been suggested that some rare talent could be acquired and these supposed "sure bets" require only the COMBINE numbers for confirmation. As regards the Pats, Kraft himself sounded excited that the Pats had TWO 1st and TWO second round selections where the pickings seem especially intriguing. What exactly are the rumors suggesting? Is it QUANTITY or  QUALITY that's generating the enthusiasm?  We recognize that a premiere QB or two might change a franchise's future and that the Offensive line has some very choice selections.  With the new rules being so favorable for the receivers perhaps good prospects now look even better? Is it the depth (or lack of separation between players) that's so confounding the  gurus or are we truly about to witness the cusp of greatness in this draft class? As for defensive linemen, are we buoyed by "potential" more than performance or stats or is it the measurables (size/speed/athleticism) that seem so different? Is this draft as special as some would have us believe?
    Posted by moskk[/QUOTE]

    moskk and ALL:

    Good thread moskk...  To let'cha know in  advance, I'm one of the select number of freaks on here whom follow the draft 365 each year, and actually and trully enjoy the NFL Draft far more than lesser pro ball things....like the superbowl for instance.  Within your greater point, indeed each year's draft IS it's own unique beast, Always...some are great & some are pretty poor & lacking (both as a whole and as it pertains to lone positional specifics), -with also all drafts being anywhere and everywhere in between and varying... 

    Just as There are those whom say that us draft nvts ALWAYS say each and every upcoming NFL Draft is an excellent one, Likewise There is also those who posit that Bill Belichick, NE's FO,  and their slew of College scouts and college inside connections, ARE- and Should BE looked upon as being lightyears ahead of any layperson fan's own scouting takes (no matter how thorough...and year-long), NE's own coaches being as it were, nearly infallible with regards to targeting good and or great college-pro prospects...  Both of these sentiments, Are at best small-minded, and at worst are simply untrue en masse.

    ~~~

    Now, RE: The 2012 NFL Draft...

    Haven't been posting alot the past few weeks, but give yourself a +1, considering the only thing which made me sign back in to post right here & now, was the exceptionally true accuracy of 1 exacting take you purported:  That is, the depth of the D-Line in this class (and by D-Line, I mean any and all positions within that framework: 4-3 DT, 4-3 DE, DT/DE 'tweeners such as 3-4 DEs, collegiate DE 'tweeners whom can transitions towards being a Pro 3-4 OLB).  Yes...This specific class, IS exceptionally deep at these greater and entire D-Line groupings.  Very deep.  Cool thing is (and I've made mention on this some time ago), that the ILB class is exceptionally talented and deep as well...  A better gauge, would be to say those ILB collegiate draftees whom (in the past) would be targeted as being 3-4 Strongside ILBs, size-wise at least...  Cool thing here RE: these ILBs, is that they're size +  the giftedness of their athleticism does NOT make it so that these fellas HAVE to be pinpointed as upholding only that SILB ideal, good and moreso-bad (i.e. skill-sets that are lacking in that spot-speed, pass-rushing and pass-defense capabilities).

    ~~~

    In respect towards the quality of groupings of a given Draft Class itself:

    As a Draft Class on whole, In order to make it easier to diagnose each classes themselves, The simple thing I do is first and foremost weigh the two (maybe 3) types of players you might be able to garner from each class...  First, those with and the chance to offer- Elite pro skill & ability on the big-stage...  Here, Sometimes classes peter-out on these "potential game-changers", "could-be stars", "team core captains (etc)" as early as anywhere around the 12-18 range in Rd #1, and yet sometimes draftees with this uniquely talented skills can go as far into the first 2-12 selection spots of Rd #2 (see last year, 2011).  Like I said, the drop-off can begin anywhere in between as well.  Unfortunately, in this 2012 class, It IS VERY shallow in terms of true elite quality pro-bowl/stud potential NFL depth as an entire class...the former (12-18 Rd 1 range), being almsot exact in this unfortunate respect this time around.  
         BUT, there is also that second-tiered depth to consider & weigh (see as a generalized ideal: targets whom CAN be decent & solid starters...just maybe not those elite, game-changers):  This range begins wherever those elite guys tail off, and then rages ("can range"), anywhere as early to the very bottom-most of Rd 2-very early Rd 3, and/or these targets can even at times go as deep as even all the way through Rd 3...AND Rd 4, and even into the very first few selections of Rd #5...  Oftentimes classes aren't this deep here, YET just go back and take a look at the incredibly deep "starter-type" talent afforded in the 2010 Draft Class, to see that this DOES happen (albeit rarely).  Again, the tail end, can and does fall anywhere in between...  This one?  Not bad...MUCH, much better (far more noticeably so), at certain positions over and above others, but as a whole, say abouts the mid-way range of Rd #3 for prospects who can offer this ideal (give or take...but I'd skew a little towards the bottom 1/3rd of Rd 3).  After that?  A: Fillers...Draftees wherein you either hope your scout nailed a guy many have overlooked, or wherein your smartest bet is to wisely target much better players whom have fallen due to final collegiate year injuries, questionable (but not blindly awful) character/"intangible" shortcomings, and/or draftees within specific college shortcomings (ex: coaching/schematic shifts, big depth factor at positions from their program), and/or even bad combine performances leading to ad hoc conclusions on their game-playing skills based on running in shorts against a stop-watch on a trackfield (rather than their actual game-tape)...These are guys ya look for here (as a best bet to "hopefully" have a better chance of making it).

    ~~~

    Some other positions to weigh within this 2012 NFL Draft Class:

    Secondary:  Wow...h0ly sh#t, Bad.  So bad in talent and depth (yea...BOTH undoubtedly first Safety, AND then even CB too)- so bad, that'cha actually exclaim, "H0ly sh#t this positional talent svx!"  THAT bad.  So bad that Safety Mark Barron is considered an "Elite Safety."  He's not.  He might turn out to be...but judging from everything offered up to the point of February 15th, 2012...he currently=AIN'T and Should Not Be.  THAT bad.  

    O-Line:  Yeaaaa....  THIS one DOES have certain guys (although few) whom can and certainly should be regarded as trully "Elite players":  The topmost guys at these spots such as Peter Konz, and G David DeCastro.  THESE guys are absolutely AS good as they get...E-ver.  Yet, after those with "Elite" potentials & smart-betting probabilities, The O-Line quality falls pretty drastically and quickly.  IF or when Konz or DeCastro makes it to #20-#22...yea- you spend an extra 4th Rder (or package 3rd rd future pick) in order to move up 8-10 spots  in order to solidify an exceptionally sure-thing by nabbing either of those 2 guys.

    WR: Opposite of O-Line...ZERO prospects worthy of garnering mid/3/4's through- 1st Round target selection worthiness:  Taking Floyd outta Notre Dame=Dvmb, dvmb, dvmb, BAD bet-GREAT payoff scenario...don't play those odds, b/c they're just not smart.  YET, in terms of those 2nd Rd "Starter" Quality skilled potential draftees...draftees whom are TRULLY worthy and should be viewed as those whom can be pretty d#mn decent starting wideouts=Yup...The WR spot is really pretty deep in this area.  Starting with the first guy within THIS non-elite, but excellent quality starting potential in Mohammed Sanu (#1 worthiness, yet early 2nd rd grade for some reason).  Several others (Kendrall Wright-literally several others here in this 2nd tiered worthiness area as very good starting potential) whom should be viewed as very wise pro starting quality on the heels after Sanu as well.

    RB- Same as wideout imho...  RBs have largely slipped due to the "NFL is a passing league mantra", so it's almost as if even those RBs with "Elite" potentials, slip to not even being taken until the last 1-2 picks of Rd 1, and the first picks of Rd #2 (the VERY best)- Miami's guy Lamarr Miller, & even someone of Trenton Richardson's abilities WILL fall much further than their own specific skills should say they should, due greatly to the current design and mindset of the 2012 NFL beliefs...  As it relates to NE alone, this is a tough-call here: Woodhead and BJGE (Woodhead not 100% sure) ARE 2012 Free Agents...after that ya got Ridley and absolute-concern-to-be-injured Shane Vareen (and not just this past year only)...so????  Many other factors here too...BJGE's price-tag.  Whether or not BB and McDaniels would actually decide to use the non-flashy, but absolutely acceptable BJGE in a way that isn't altogether !d!ot!c...1st and 10=95% run chance for BJGE (and everyone on D knows it)/ 2nd and 5 or more=5% run chance using BJGE.  3rd down and anything less than a single foot 1/2 of 1% run chance using BJGE.  Great way to maximize your running game results fellas... Oh, also IF and when any NE RB who mighta had 6 4 yard (+) gains in a row, suddenly is stopped for no gain on any single play=The result?  Oh, let's bench him for a drive or two (or the rest of the game)= So yea, IF NE's taking a RB...and even IF NE suddenly comes to the conclusion that they're gonna target some RB draftee of Elite quality ideal potentialities, THEN they might wanna first at least somewhat RE-consider how they use RBs and the running game on a whole and on the actual field of play...    
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    In Response to Re: Historically a strong draft?:
    [QUOTE]Kraft said the same thing last year. Don't listen to the moron Tony Mazz who reads into everything wrong when talking about the Pats. Kraft is simply reinforcing the idea that for the 3rd year in a row NE has 2 1st rd picks and multiple 2nds, which of course, means BB will have no worse than a B grade draft for the 3rd straight year. In other words, Pats fans have a strong, bright future to look towards aa compared to most franchises.   Keep things in perspective. As much as the Pats offense blew an opportunity to win the game in the 4th on back to back drives, the opportunity is there to improve. The D is ascending, hopefully with O'Brien gone, they can wake up and realize Brady must be reined in for this team to win a SB.
    Posted by RustyGriswold[/QUOTE]

    yea i hope they do get him some help in the back field or use ridley and vereen more....his arm might fall off if he continues to throw it so much.
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    The strengh of the draft today will be viewed different next week, a month from now and looking back three years from now.

    That said it seems there some talent at CB going into the 3rd round, OT outside top 3 there's really nothing there for a team looking for a LT.  OG there's some good depth but those you can always get one later rounds and Pats do because of their all century coach.  DL, I see height weight speed quickness but then you look at some of these guys stats and watched them during games and the two just don't add up.  So this could be a strong draft or a bust filled one.

    WR, this one I like.  I see a few guys into the 4th round that I would consider. My favorite and someone I hope they draft is Marvin Jones 6'2" 200lbs from Cal.  He's a projected 4th rnd kid but with his tape, how he looked at the Senior Bowl and how he should run/drills/hands ect he will rise very quickly.  You will start hearing his name more often. Cal played pro style of this season and Jones had good numbers without a great QB.  He can run the full route tree and make the tough catch.

    Good read on jones

     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    In Response to Re: Historically a strong draft?:
    [QUOTE]It's the other myth about the team.  I hate the "this is a passing leaguer/passing team" line. Hate it.   So beyond annoying and it just plays right into Goodell's hands.  He loves how NE scores 30 points on bad teams or in garbage time for ratings and fireworks, but we just play right into it. Ugh. We lost this SB due to the fact we had an inferior OC and the Giants OC has a better relationship with Gomer Jr, as compared to O'Brien and Brady. We've lost two SBs with an apparent obsession with that pass first and often mantra.  Just awful. Just because there is more passing now, doesn't mean you ignore the run or throw half the playbook away.  How many more year will this go on? Brady will be 37 and on one leg and he'll be telling BB he can pass to win. lol Just get a bruising 20 carry back in here.  Trade for Maurice JOnes Drew.  This depp threat concept is so overblown, too. Do we realy want a repeat of SB 42 with 49 passes and 40 of those being 20 yards or more? Bedard was saying how NE's Run blocking was worse than last year. Of course it's worse, they passed 60+% of the time and we were predictable who we used and when we'd run. It's not like the O Line regressed. In fact, it was superior to last year's both in talent and depth. I also chuckled at his grades. He said Mankins wasn't as good as 2010 and then gave him an A. Unreal.  None of it make any sense.
    Posted by RustyGriswold[/QUOTE]

    you think we can get MJD ? 
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    I like MoJo, but what about Arian Foster as a trade possibility? Would probably come a little cheaper then MoJo and is an absolute beast. A threat to take it to the house any time he touches the ball.
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    Bro, I would love to have MJD here its just I REALLY doubt BB would do it.

    Foster might end up available for a 1st  and a contract so that might be more realistic but I wouldn't bet on it.

    Plus, I doubt BB would be up for spending a 1st plus big money for a RB a year after spending a 2nd and 3rd rounder on RB's.

    I would love to see Foster or MJD here but its just HIGHLY unlikely. Honestly, I pray Ridley improves on his ball security, Vereen stays healthy and gets touches and McDaniels/BB/Brady all realize we will need a good running attack to win the SB.
     
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    Re: Historically a strong draft?

    In Response to Re: Historically a strong draft?:
    [QUOTE]It's the other myth about the team.  I hate the "this is a passing leaguer/passing team" line. Hate it.   So beyond annoying and it just plays right into Goodell's hands.  He loves how NE scores 30 points on bad teams or in garbage time for ratings and fireworks, but we just play right into it. Ugh. We lost this SB due to the fact we had an inferior OC and the Giants OC has a better relationship with Gomer Jr, as compared to O'Brien and Brady. We've lost two SBs with an apparent obsession with that pass first and often mantra.  Just awful. Just because there is more passing now, doesn't mean you ignore the run or throw half the playbook away.  How many more year will this go on? Brady will be 37 and on one leg and he'll be telling BB he can pass to win. lol Just get a bruising 20 carry back in here.  Trade for Maurice JOnes Drew.  This deep threat concept is so overblown, too. Do we really want a repeat of SB 42 with 49 passes and 40 of those being 20 yards or more? Bedard was saying how NE's Run blocking was worse than last year. Of course it's worse, they passed 60+% of the time and we were predictable who we used and when we'd run. It's not like the O Line regressed. In fact, it was superior to last year's both in talent and depth. I also chuckled at his grades. He said Mankins wasn't as good as 2010 and then gave him an A. Unreal.  None of it make any sense.
    Posted by RustyGriswold[/QUOTE]

    A well balanced offense will show 50% run and 50% pass. It's rare to find an OL that's equally adept at pass-blocking and blocking in run support. The Pat's line is more adept at pass blocking and because of this fact we tend to favor the pass. In doing so we become more predictable and this offers an advantage to an aggressive DL.

    An OL that has a truly great running game can make yardage despite being predictable if everyone executes.  It's a gross misconception to expect even an elite RB to be effective if the OL cannot contain a defensive thrust.  An effective OL will have the ability to surge through a defensive line by by sheer strength (when required), by using stunts, misdirection etc., to create holes and even to neutralize LB effectiveness. We don't presently have that capability and until we do our running game will remain a step-child of the passing game.

    I therefore can't incriminate TB with guilt for electing a passing game over a running game.  Even still, consider how effective our passing game could have been with a more effective Branch (who couldn't get separation) and a GENUINE deep threat to take the top off the defense. Add to that a healthy GRONK and we still could have had SB #4.

    We must improve our running game to keep defenses guessing and to do that we need some upgrades in that line.  The advantage of an ELITEning player on the OL is that such a player is DOMINANT in BOTH the passing and run game. If our running game improves we have better clock management and we improve out TOP to keep the ball away from opposing offenses.
     

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