Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    Can't believe people called me a troll for saying the samething last year. 


    This is such an obvious need you don't have to be in the NFL to know this.  I hope BB does something to improve this area with Vets...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) : Hey Rock . . . here's my concern after watching the Pats last year.  Our offense was often great, but there were times all season when it stalled out. I think the problem was that we were far too dependent on our (excellent) short passing game. We were best when we got a decent showing from BJGE and the under-center running game to complement the short passing game.  That gave us just enough diversity to keep defenses guessing. I'd like to see the Pats improve their offense primarily by getting better at the run.  That means some more nasty run blockers on the line and a top-level running back.  (I like BJGE, but I don't think he has the speed, especially to the outside, to really be a dominant threat that defenses have to game plan against.)  The other way to diversify the offense, though, is to have more threats in the passing game downfield or on the edges.  We just don't have those now.  Yes, we didn't have big guys in the super bowl teams, but we had stronger running games and Patten and Givens gave us more than Tate does at that x position.  If you watch the Packers with Driver and Jennings and Jones, you see what real downfield receiving threats can do for an offense.  As far as Moss, he was just not playing well--he wasn't consistently getting open, he was dropping balls, and sometimes he seemed to have his head out of the game.  That started in 2009, really.  I think getting rid of Moss improved the team because he wasn't very consistent and Brady--hoping for the best--kept throwing to him.  Look at the Jets game in week 2--Moss made a great catch against Revis, but he was just awful on that Cromartie interception.  Moss was becoming a liability.  That doesn't mean, however, that having a good outside threat is unnecessary.  I think this team would be greatly improved by a real x receiver or even two.   One thing I am sure of, though, is if we don't diversify the offense we're going to remain vulnerable against teams like the Jets who can stop our short passing game.  They've done that three times now (playoff, and Meadowlands games in 2010 and 2009).  We can't go into 2011 still being vulnerable in that way.  We need either a strong running game or a more potent deep game to complement Welker and the TEs or we're going to struggle at times against certain defenses.  If our defense is shut down (like it was in 2003 and 2004) maybe we still can win those games.  But if our defense is still developing, then we'll need more weapons in the offense than just TEs and slot receivers. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]
    C'mon man.  The Pats did more to stop themselves in that game than the Jets did.  By all rights the Pats should have been up by atleast 10/14-0 after their first two drives.  The offensive play calling hurt them also later in the game. 

    First pick for the Pats in the draft the best 3-4 DE available.  This is the year to get one.  If they don't do atleast that then I would think this draft as a failure.
     
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    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) : C'mon man.  The Pats did more to stop themselves in that game than the Jets did.  By all rights the Pats should have been up by atleast 10/14-0 after their first two drives.  The offensive play calling hurt them also later in the game.  First pick for the Pats in the draft the best 3-4 DE available.  This is the year to get one.  If they don't do atleast that then I would think this draft as a failure.
    Posted by Salcon[/QUOTE]

    I was at all three games--the two in the Meadowlands and the playoff game.  Brady had the same frustrated appearance in all three. I don't think Brady's a choker.  I think he had no options once the Jets stopped the short passing game.  This offense isn't built to pound the ball or to challenge the deep part of the field.  The Jets have shown they can stop our offense when they send their corners one-on-one against our edge guys and flood the middle with LBs and Safeties.  In the 45-3 game, the Jets had a new safety and made the mistake of putting Revis on Welker. In the playoff game, they put Revis on Branch and used more of a zone approach to cover Welker.  That's more like what they did in week 2.  It works against the Pats if you have good d-backs who don't need a lot of safety help.  That's what we need to counter.  We need to force the safeties to cover deep and not flood the short zones. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    Or just simply run the ball more behind Mankins, Gronk and Crump.

    That deep ball to Tate was specifically designed to make NY think they will go deep, but abandoning the run in a low scoring, close game, is dumb.

    This team won 3 SBs against good secondaries or secondaries that played well in games, by NE simply running the ball, using Dan Graham to help out on the edge, and being balanced with the wepaons in the passing game.

    They had this and should have this moving forward, but it's up to Bill O'Brien and Brady to keep patience when the game isn't going absolutely perfectly.

    Grab a DE and OLB in the draft, that are as good or preferably better than anything you have at each position right now, get Bodden back, and watch the D improve another step from last year and from what 2009's version was.

    Sign Pierre Thomas, draft an RB, and add some OL help early in the draft as well.

    WR would be more for the 3rd rd, in my opinion.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NOT2REGRET. Show NOT2REGRET's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    Listen im all for pass rushers , and getting someone to play the 5tech. But your a fool if you think we can win w/ this O in the playoffs. The jets seriouslly played 1 on 1 outside the numbers. Not the " man to man " the used to play against Moss. Where after every game the jokes would say , " we covered him st8 up " ... when all one had to do is look at the tape and see Rhodes or some other S over the top. If your Wrs cant beat that coverage then they shouldnt be playing period. Welker doesnt put up #'s , cant count on Branch to put 10 + TDs. And for all those know absolutely nothings! who like to say stuff like , " We never had any WRs when we won 3 rings " ... yea but we had elite D's , Sey , Law , Tedy , Willie , Asante , Johnson and many more to go along w/ them. Who doesnt understand that?
     
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    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) : Good post man--you nailed it!
    Posted by ipats[/QUOTE]

    Apparently, we are "absolutely no-nothings". And "this offense cannot win in the playoffs".

    lol

    The drip above me claims Randy Moss or someone like that is the golden ticket to 3 SB rings and then says defense wins titles.

    Confusing, I agree.

    In this offense, if NE runs the ball 20+ times, 9/10 they won't lose, especially if they don';t turn the ball over.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]Or just simply run the ball more behind Mankins, Gronk and Crump. 
    Posted by BBReigns[/QUOTE]


    I'm all for this.  That's why I've put OL and RB higher on my priorities than wideout.  But I still think a real wideout would help us. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) : I disagree.  In the playoff game the jets played a lot of nickle, daring the Pats to run and Brady/O'Brien were too stubburn. 
    Posted by ipats[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I think they should have run more too.  I've said previously that I think if they had gone to the running game in the second quarter rather than the fourth, they might have won.  

    But you also have to remember the second half of the Jets game in the Meadowlands where BJGE couldn't get a d*mn yard despite them trying repeatedly.  I suspect the coaching staff didn't have a lot of confidence that we could run against the Jets defense after that.  Maybe O'Brien wasn't being stubborn as much as thinking that what didn't work in week 2 wouldn't work any better in week 19. 


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    There is a lot here to agree with!

    It is painfully obvious they need a stronger and more consistent pass rush. Moreover it cannot come by sacrificing the run D. That means a meaningful upgrade at DE and at at least one OLB spot.

    But I also agree that there needs to be more youth and upgrade on the OL and that BJGE is a solid alternative and Woodhead is the next Faulk but there is a need for a real feature back. Corey Dillon 2 would be great. Or a Rice or a Mendenhall. But more is needed. The bottom line is that while this already is an excellent offense it can break down. When it does break down it is usually either an inability to dominant with the run or an inability to pass block. An upgrade at RB will help both aspects. New youth and some upgrade in talent on the OL will also help both.

    But notable improvement in pass rush with some improvement in the run D from the two positions (DE & OLB) will make a world of difference come playoff time.

    There continues to be talk about adding a WR and I am not against it but if you shore up the OL and upgrade to a more potent RB that will make a world of difference to the O. So I am not as focused on the WR. Also, any maturation from Price, Tate and/or Endelman would certainly help. I expect some growth from Endelman. Not sure about Tate. Price is most likely to show a jump in effectiveness.

    Taking stock of all this I expect at least one RB will be brought in from FA. Best option there would be Pierre Thomas (though Ricky Williams would look awful nice in the role for at least a year or two).

    None of this translates into anything definate in the draft in that BB will trade down... or up... our out (to next year... in fact I would be very surprised if at least one pick is not rolled into a higher round in 2012). Who is on the board and just how BB rates the different personnel outcomes will determine things. So while I would not be surprised to see them pick a DE or OLB or OL in round 1 neither would I be surprised if they went and picked an RB (like Leshoure) if a later DE or LB or OL were not considered as much of a drop.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]There is a lot here to agree with! 
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    A lot to agree with in your post too.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]Whether it was O'Brien, Brady, or Belichick, the game plan stunk.
    Posted by ipats[/QUOTE]

    I tend to agree . . . but I also have this nagging suspicion that the coaches went with that particular game plan precisely because they lacked faith in our power running game against that defense.  The game plan was all about spreading the Jets horizontally and trying to get completions in space or runs in space. But the Jets were closing very quickly on the receivers and on the running backs and making sure tackles. I would have liked to have seen the Pats try a much more physical approach where we put bodies on bodies and forced our way down the field rather than trying to spread the Jets out.  But I suspect the coaches didn't think we were very good at that type of game and figured the Jets would stop us, so they stuck with our strength, even when it wasn't working. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    I've said this before and I'll keep saying it. 14-2 was no fluke. The 2010 schedule was as tough as it gets. The playoff loss against the Jets was about lack of execution and poor play calling. You could see early on in that game that the Jets were not going to allow Woodhead to beat them again. Green-Ellis was having success but they stopped giving him the ball.

    On the draft, the Pats really have few needs but they do have many areas that can be improved. Belichick and his staff are salivating over the possibilities with all these picks. Pats fans, hang on for another decade of excellence.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]I've said this before and I'll keep saying it. 14-2 was no fluke. The 2010 schedule was as tough as it gets. The playoff loss against the Jets was about lack of execution and poor play calling. You could see early on in that game that the Jets were not going to allow Woodhead to beat them again. Green-Ellis was having success but they stopped giving him the ball. On the draft, the Pats really have few needs but they do have many areas that can be improved. Belichick and his staff are salivating over the possibilities with all these picks. Pats fans, hang on for another decade of excellence.
    Posted by digger0862[/QUOTE]

    I agree.  Green-Ellis is not Corey Dillon but he get's positive yards and never, ever fumbles.  The Pats won  Super Bowls with Antowain Smith - not exactly a game breaker.  Decent power runner.  Don't see why they couldn't do the same against the Jets.  The Jets pretty much dared them to.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    BB drafted a pass rusher, Cunningham.  Let's see if he blossoms any in his second year. 

    I've got my eye on a guy that might fill the elephant position.  He's fat and he runs a 4.65 (pre-combine).  Allen Bailey is a 485 pound tweener between defensive tackle and defensive end, “tweener” being the kiss of death in the NFL, but he could play the elephant position for BB.  Another Miami guy.  Sounds like a young Adalius Thomas before Ad got slow.  Before choosing him, first see if his hips swivel properly because he has to occasionally cover tight ends.  Mostly he needs to plug holes, and with his bulk he’ll crash into the backfield.  I think Bailey goes in the second round because he's a bit of a project and many coaches need first rounders who can play immediately.

    As always I defer to an excellent scouting department.  Dan Klecko fit that big/fast linebacker mold too.  Klecko bounced around the NFL and is outside right now.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    How could they lack faith in it? That's what really gets me. BJGE was running the ball fine and the jets were daring them to run it. The worst thing they could do in that situation was to be stubborn. The chameleon offense that won them superbowls wasn't executed because they were too stubborn to just run the ball. 

    I agree that Moss wasn't the same player this year, but he still was getting some attention. Of course they could use a better deep threat, but I just think some of the other needs are far more important. A big need in my mind is center. Koppen never gets criticized but is consistently beat when trying to block one on one. I think if you add a guy like Pouncey from last year Shaun Ellis won't be taking Brady's head off in the game a month ago. 

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) : I tend to agree . . . but I also have this nagging suspicion that the coaches went with that particular game plan precisely because they lacked faith in our power running game against that defense.  The game plan was all about spreading the Jets horizontally and trying to get completions in space or runs in space. But the Jets were closing very quickly on the receivers and on the running backs and making sure tackles. I would have liked to have seen the Pats try a much more physical approach where we put bodies on bodies and forced our way down the field rather than trying to spread the Jets out.  But I suspect the coaches didn't think we were very good at that type of game and figured the Jets would stop us, so they stuck with our strength, even when it wasn't working. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]How could they lack faith in it? That's what really gets me. BJGE was running the ball fine and the jets were daring them to run it. The worst thing they could do in that situation was to be stubborn. The chameleon offense that won them superbowls wasn't executed because they were too stubborn to just run the ball.  I agree that Moss wasn't the same player this year, but he still was getting some attention. Of course they could use a better deep threat, but I just think some of the other needs are far more important. A big need in my mind is center. Koppen never gets criticized but is consistently beat when trying to block one on one. I think if you add a guy like Pouncey from last year Shaun Ellis won't be taking Brady's head off in the game a month ago.  In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) :
    Posted by Rockdog1293000[/QUOTE]

    I was frustrated with their refusal to run too.  It may have been just stubbornness ("we have a game plan that calls for spread formations and lots of passing and we're sticking to it come hell or high water").  But I can't help wondering if the reason the coaches were so stubborn is because they don't think: (1) our O-line is physical enough to blow DLs and LBs off the ball and (2) our RBs have the skills to consistently break 3, 4, and 5 yard runs when the defense is expecting run.  Because of that they try to spread the defense and use gadget plays (like the reverse, which worked, and the fake reverse and screen which was a disaster) instead of going to a pound-it-down-your-throat approach (like the Steelers used with Mendenhall).

    If the coaches do lack faith in the running game (and I think there are reasons for them to lack faith), then we need to do at least two things in the offseason: get tougher O-linemen (and I love the idea of a better center) and get a better tailback.  

    I agree that WR isn't as a high a priority as the above (and also a lower priority than OLB/DE, because there are defensive needs as well that are at least as pressing as the offensive needs) -- but I still think that a WR who can challenge the safeties deep would be a huge plus for us.  As it is, teams with top corners (like the Jets) were able to cover our wideouts one-on-one and let the safeties come down and defend the short stuff.  The Jets did that against Moss/Tate in week 2 and against Branch/Tate in the playoffs with pretty equal success. They screwed up in the 45-3 game when they tried to make Revis defend the slot (Welker).  

    Obviously, we won't solve all the problems in one offseason--and no team is going to be perfect in all areas anyway.  I assume BB will take what he feels is the best talent available and solve one or two of the issues.  That may be all it takes to get us over the hump and back to the Super Bowl. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    I remember Tate being open on some plays but just not getting the ball. I think if Brady starts to trust Tate (and Tate earns some trust) then Tate will be looking a whole lot better. I think the dolphins gave us another reminder Tate and Edelman can play, but it doesn't matter if Brady doesn't throw them the ball. 

    The play that kills me is the third down play during the drive to nowhere where Brady forced the ball to Woodhead when Tate was doing jumping jacks to get Brady's attention. The CB was 5 yards off of Tate and if Brady delivered the ball well it was a YAC opportunity. 

    In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS) : I was frustrated with their refusal to run too.  It may have been just stubbornness ("we have a game plan that calls for spread formations and lots of passing and we're sticking to it come hell or high water").  But I can't help wondering if the reason the coaches were so stubborn is because they don't think: (1) our O-line is physical enough to blow DLs and LBs off the ball and (2) our RBs have the skills to consistently break 3, 4, and 5 yard runs when the defense is expecting run.  Because of that they try to spread the defense and use gadget plays (like the reverse, which worked, and the fake reverse and screen which was a disaster) instead of going to a pound-it-down-your-throat approach (like the Steelers used with Mendenhall). If the coaches do lack faith in the running game (and I think there are reasons for them to lack faith), then we need to do at least two things in the offseason: get tougher O-linemen (and I love the idea of a better center) and get a better tailback.   I agree that WR isn't as a high a priority as the above (and also a lower priority than OLB/DE, because there are defensive needs as well that are at least as pressing as the offensive needs) -- but I still think that a WR who can challenge the safeties deep would be a huge plus for us.  As it is, teams with top corners (like the Jets) were able to cover our wideouts one-on-one and let the safeties come down and defend the short stuff.  The Jets did that against Moss/Tate in week 2 and against Branch/Tate in the playoffs with pretty equal success. They screwed up in the 45-3 game when they tried to make Revis defend the slot (Welker).   Obviously, we won't solve all the problems in one offseason--and no team is going to be perfect in all areas anyway.  I assume BB will take what he feels is the best talent available and solve one or two of the issues.  That may be all it takes to get us over the hump and back to the Super Bowl. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: Im tired of all the WR and DB talk...WE NEED PRESSURE (PASS RUSHERS THAT IS)

    SB 42 and the Jets playoff loss are somewhat similar.

    Plenty of missed executions by NE and by some good D by the opponent, but nothing that wasn't a situation where they couldn't have fought through it by simply running the ball more.

    Each of these games were not blowouts, obviously, so there was no need to become one dimensional and panic.  I feel like this topic has beaten to death, but if you can't point to the guy calling the plays, just who do you point to?

    Each of those games were on the offensive coordinator. He gets paid to get a feel for the game and call plays strategically.  Adjustments are what make good coordinators.

    Anyone can call in a play to Brady and this offense. The offense is loaded. Brady is Brady.  It's not rocket science.

    But it's the coordinators who have a plan and also adjust from that plan, that are the ones who should be in that position and should know what to do.

    Credit goes to the opponents' defense, sure, but i also expect adjustments from my coordinator to offset that.

    20 carries is the breaking point for this team. Anything under that and you are looking at a loss, especially against a quality defense. The numbers don't lie in this case.  Go look at the games where they blew games they should have won or BARELY won.  The rushes are right at 20 or below.  

    It actually ALMOST happened in the AFC title game in 2007 against SD, if fans remember that game.

    McDaniels finally gave in and flippped the switch where NE ran all over a gassed SD defense for the entire 4th qtr.  But, for a while there, that juggernaut offense wasn't really putting up points.  SD was containing them.

    The end of that season proves the spread offense as a base offense is a failure against good defenses.

    As it's known by now, I hate the McDaniels spread. It only works against teams who don't have good coverage personnel and an average pass rush.

    It takes almost perfect execution repeatedly by the O Line (this is why the O Line looked bad in 2009 and GREAT after Week 6 in 2010), Brady and the WRs to use it as the base and at a 70% clip (or highers) against the good/great Ds in the league.

    That Balt and Minny game this year is really where the team started to find some balance and finally get away from the McDaniels spread/shotgun.

    It's almost like an additction. 

    It works against Pitt because they can't cover.  Their CBs are average, and their nickel and dime packages are weak.

    But, the Baltimores, Eagles, Giants, Chargers, Jets, and even the Colts (at times), can gameplan for that one dimensional offense to contain it enough.

    You have to run the ball and show the other team you are determined to do it early, especially when teams match up decently.

    Otherwise, we see 3 and outs and punts at an alaming rate early in games.

    The Jets came in with an improved gameplan and NE played right into it.  They sold out on the pass defense. How many times did we see DeVito or Ellis just come right in and sell out on a pass rush move and not even consider holding the line in case it was a run?

    Where were the draws, counters or runs off tackle?
     

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