Interesting OL read

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    I didn't see enough from Cannon to feel confident about him as our starting RT.  I think if Vollmer goes, they've got to get someone else--maybe as Rusty suggests a decent veteran if there's one available at an affordable cap cost. 

    I'm not as sanguine about the team's salary cap position as PatsEng is.  I don't have all the details to really know for sure, but from what I've been reading, we don't have anywhere near enough cap space to franchise Welker at $11 million and then sign Talib, Vollmer, and everyone else (another 10 or 15 players!). 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to FrnkBnhm's comment:

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

    With Vollmers medical history I just don't see anyone paying him at top 10 RT money - because signing him means that you still need a high quality back-up to cover for the 4-6 games he will miss based on last two years. Top 10 RT money comes in about 5M/per for 4 years. With a typical signing bonus/escalation that comes in at 3-4M for the first year. And no one is going to pay him as a left tackle based on a couple of games a few years ago, nor will the pats tag him because that is the same as paying him as a left tackle. 

    I could see someone offering Thomas a 4 year deal at 10M but back loaded and with limited guarantee (4M), and I could see the pats matching that. With half of the money at the back end unguaranteed - 2M signing, 1M, 1.5M, 2.5M, 3M, first two years guaranteed. If he develops further, great, you renegotiate in year three extending his deal, if not you cut him after 2 years. Cap hit 1.5M first year. I think that would be as good as he could expect - take a look at Waters a 5 time probowler - he was at 2.25/year.

    No way Welker is tagged - and he gets to test the market if he doesn't accept three years 20M with 14M guaranteed - cap hit around 5-6M in the first year.

    Talib - no way a player with his history gets tagged and if anyone offers him top ten money he is gone. I would not be surprised if he signs a middle of the pack one or two year deal to improve his reputation before trying for the big payday. With the current history, I would be surprised if anyone offers more than 6M/year or guaranteed money beyond about 10M.

     



    I don't disagree with the numbers you put forward. But if the Patriots tried to sign those four guys with cap hits of $6M, $6M, $4M and $2M that would literally use up all the cap space and still leave them with 14 empty roster spaces. The Patriots only had 33 players under contract for 2013 when the season ended. Even at minimum salaries 14 players will cost between $7M and $10M depending the years of service of guys you sign - the rookie minimum next season is $405k.

     

    The fact is that even with a good amount of cap space the Patriots will need to cut or renogitiate some players to make all their signings...



    I think you have used that 33 player under contract number a few times and it is just wrong. Between their final roster minus free agents and their injured reserve and the CFLers and the future contracts they have signed they have well over 50 players under contract for 2013. And the numbers you see regarding their current cap for 2013 is based on the top 51 contracts they have. When they sign a new contract that is above the lowest current #51 contract, that low contract rolls off the cap list so the cap cost of the new contract is $400+K less than the first year  contract of the new player. The best site I have found for Cap numbers in the AFC East is here:

    http://www.nyjetscap.com/Patriots/patriots2013.php

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    I'm no expert, but I believe the top-51 rule applies only during the offseason (or for some period during the offseason/preseason).  I believe it's designed to give teams more flexibility to sign and cut players as they are trying to build a team. Once the season starts, however, I am almost certain that teams need to be under the cap taking into account all their signed players (plus any dead money).   If the Pats reported current $18 million in cap space (or whatever it is with the CFL players accounted for) is for only their top-paid 51 players, then their "real" cap space is actually less, because once the season starts, players 52 and 53 (as well as players on the PUP and other lists) will count toward the cap calculation and will eat up additional cap space. 

    Am I wrong? 

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to RockScully's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    I didn't see enough from Cannon to feel confident about him as our starting RT.  I think if Vollmer goes, they've got to get someone else--maybe as Rusty suggests a decent veteran if there's one available at an affordable cap cost. 

    I'm not as sanguine about the team's salary cap position as PatsEng is.  I don't have all the details to really know for sure, but from what I've been reading, we don't have anywhere near enough cap space to franchise Welker at $11 million and then sign Talib, Vollmer, and everyone else (another 10 or 15 players!). 

     



    I don't either, but he looked A LOT better in season than preseason which is what I suggested when BB had a mish mash on the O Line preseason.

     

    I am just saying, if some team or team start throwing out the 7-9 mil per year kind of numbers gambling on Vollme's back, or BB simply walks away from Vollmer, Cannon is likely the guy the turn to.

    Maybe with a full camp he'll be just fine and they'll just need to sign a cheap, veteran FA Tackle swing player and then also hit one in the draft in the mid rds to try to develop.

     

     

     



    He also was active most games, which does say something positive about him.  I just hope they can sign Vollmer, though, because he's a very good tackle, and quality at tackle is extremely important to both the running and passing game.  I'd hate to see us slip backwards too much at that position. 

     

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    I'm no expert, but I believe the top-51 rule applies only during the offseason (or for some period during the offseason/preseason).  I believe it's designed to give teams more flexibility to sign and cut players as they are trying to build a team. Once the season starts, however, I am almost certain that teams need to be under the cap taking into account all their signed players (plus any dead money).   If the Pats reported current $18 million in cap space (or whatever it is with the CFL players accounted for) is for only their top-paid 51 players, then their "real" cap space is actually less, because once the season starts, players 52 and 53 (as well as players on the PUP and other lists) will count toward the cap calculation and will eat up additional cap space. 

    Am I wrong? 



    Yes, you are wrong - the cap number is always based on the top 51 salaries, but that includes anyone on IR or PUP so if you have a player with a $5M salary on IR his number is going to be included in your top 51. The cap number also includes 'dead money' - prorated bonus money for players you have cut during the previous year - e.g. Fanene is counting $2.5M in the 2013 cap as dead money.

    The is another accounting offset on the salary cap - teams signing veteran players to veteran minimum contracts get to discount those salaries by about $300K to bring them more in line with the rookie minimum - insentivises teams to hire the vets.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to mia76's comment:

    Yes, you are wrong - the cap number is always based on the top 51 salaries, but that includes anyone on IR or PUP so if you have a player with a $5M salary on IR his number is going to be included in your top 51. The cap number also includes 'dead money' - prorated bonus money for players you have cut during the previous year - e.g. Fanene is counting $2.5M in the 2013 cap as dead money.

    The is another accounting offset on the salary cap - teams signing veteran players to veteran minimum contracts get to discount those salaries by about $300K to bring them more in line with the rookie minimum - insentivises teams to hire the vets.

     _________________



    You sure about that? Because this is what the CBA says:

    The highest applicable Salary set forth in Paragraph of the NFL Player Contract shall be included in Team Salary in the year earned, except that,between the start of the League Year and the first day of the regular playing season, only the following amounts from Paragraph shall be included for players whose Player Contracts are not among the Team's 51 highest valued Player Contracts, tenders and Offer Sheets (as determined under this Section6):

    (1) Any amount that exceeds the Minimum Active/Inactive List Salary for Undrafted Rookie Free Agents; and

    (2) Any amount that exceeds twice the applicable Minimum Active/Inactive List Salary for all other players.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    So David Thomas is now a critical guy? He was an afterthought last year at this time. Hope he stays, but if he leaves, oh well. Next man up. And so it goes on the OL...seriously it is the least concern if you're a Pats fan. Well, maybe after punter and long snapper.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    @mia76

    Also, last year's NFL calendar clearly specifies when the top 51 rule expired for 2012 and all players' contracts had to fit within the salary cap:

     

    September 4 – Deadline at 4:00 p.m., New York time, for all NFL Player Contracts, Practice Player Contracts, tender offers, and miscellaneous amounts to fit within each club’s 2012 Salary Cap, in anticipation of the midnight expiration of the Top 51 Rule.      

    September 5 – At 12:00 a.m., New York time, the Top 51 Rule expires for all NFL Clubs.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    @mia76

    Also, last year's NFL calendar clearly specifies when the top 51 rule expired for 2012 and all players' contracts had to fit within the salary cap:

     

    September 4 – Deadline at 4:00 p.m., New York time, for all NFL Player Contracts, Practice Player Contracts, tender offers, and miscellaneous amounts to fit within each club’s 2012 Salary Cap, in anticipation of the midnight expiration of the Top 51 Rule.      

    September 5 – At 12:00 a.m., New York time, the Top 51 Rule expires for all NFL Clubs.



    No idea what the Top51 rule expiration date means, but I have never seen any cap number that does not ONLY include the 51 highest salaries. And I doubt many if any teams ever run into the other rule you sited as most of the players currently on the Pats top 51 salaries would are not making more than rookie minimum or two times active minimum of their status, so if they got displaced to below the 51 they would not trigger the clause. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to mia76's comment:

     

     

    No idea what the Top51 rule expiration date means, but I have never seen any cap number that does not ONLY include the 51 highest salaries. And I doubt many if any teams ever run into the other rule you sited as most of the players currently on the Pats top 51 salaries would are not making more than rookie minimum or two times active minimum of their status, so if they got displaced to below the 51 they would not trigger the clause. 

     

     ______________________



    This is why I don't pay too much attention to anything I read about the cap on fan sites or even in the media. There's a lot of misinformation out there, and the rules themselves are quite complex.  The CBA, however, is pretty clear that the top 51 rule applies only during the offseason.    And while I don't put much stock in what you find on the internet, here's something from the "ask the commish" website that seems consistent with the CBA text:

     

    Who falls under the Salary Cap? 

    Answer: The "Team Salary" falls under the Salary Cap. Team salary includes the amount a team must pay its current or former players under their player contracts. Notice emphasis on the word PLAYERS. The salary cap does not apply to coaches, assistants, trainers, and other personnel. Only the top 51 player salaries for a team count against the salary cap in the offseason. (Outstanding tenders apply.) During the season, all player salaries count toward the salary cap.

    __________________

    Really, if you think about it, a "top 51" rule makes a lot of sense during the offseason when rosters are expanded and teams are bringing in a lot of players to try out.  Once the real season starts, though, the salary cap goes fully into effect and any player you have under contract (top 51 or not) is counted in determining your team salary.     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Interesting OL read

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    So David Thomas is now a critical guy? He was an afterthought last year at this time. Hope he stays, but if he leaves, oh well. Next man up. And so it goes on the OL...seriously it is the least concern if you're a Pats fan. Well, maybe after punter and long snapper.



    yes he is critical. He competantly played 50% of the seasons offensive snaps for $750k. That is huge 

     

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