Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    Ok - so we now have the contract details on Hartline (age 27) - Deal is 5 years 30.775M with a 12.5M guarantee - basically 6M/season with a 2 yr guarantee.

    Production: 74 receptions, 1083 yds, 1 TD, 48 first downs

    Lloyd (age 31) contract - two years remaining with a total of 10M or 5M/yr (2M dead money if cut before a 3M option bonus this year)

    Production: 74 receptions, 911 yds, 4 TD, 50 first downs

    Seems to me Lloyd represents pretty decent value based on current 'market'.

    And I am not that sure that 6M for Hartline at 27 with 12.5M guarantee is a worse deal than 8M for Welker at age 31 with 16M guarantee. They play different roles and positions but ...

    And I really don't think Miami can be seen to be overpaying here - small guarantee and medium per year cost for a youngish WR.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

     

    Yeah, pretty much agree with all of it. When I watch Hartline and Lloyd play they kind of have a similar skill set...neither is a real burner, they both don't do a lot after the catch. I mean Hartline is probably a better overrall talent at this point (a little faster, a little bigger), but to me he is more a number 2 reciever like Lloyd. The problem may be that Lloyd very well could be a head case, and that may only get worse the longer he is here...plus he is older than Hartline. I do agree however.

    I kind of agree with the Welker thing too - although I love Welker and think he is a tough, quick, skilled weapon - 8M is a lot of money for a guy his age and with his deficiencies. 

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    I can't see why the Pats would get rid of Lloyd unless he is the ultimate locker room jerk.  He was productive and I could see him being better this year.  So he's not a big YAC guy and he hits the ground a lot to avoid crushing blows?!  I don't care, he catches balls and keeps the chains moving.  They could do a lot worse for the money.   

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    Don't forget that Lloyd is the number 4 option of Brady's to Hartline's number 1 to Tannerhill. 

     

    Could Lloyd be better? Sure, but can Tom learn to throw a better deep ball? Yes. He missed Brandon a ton last season. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    If it was just performance wise then Lloyd is worth the money but from what we've herad about the locker room I'd let him walk and be done with it.

    As for Hartline, it sounds like a good deal but I have a feeling a lot of money is back loaded. I'd like to see what they upfront money is. 12.5 spread over 5 years is only 2.5mil a year and if the first couple years is on the much lower end Hartlines next two years could actually cost less then Lloyds.

    The more I look at it the more I think Hartlines deal (depending on the breakdown) actually hurts Welkers stance. Only 12.5mil guaranteed isn't a lot and again depending on the yearly breakdown Hartline could only be seeing 3-5mil for the first couple of years. Not nearly the 6-7mil we originally thought, which would be more inline with what many of us thought

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    Not to be contrary, but is it really a legit comparison - Lloyd vs Hartline?  Lloyd had the best QB in the game throwing to him and Hartline had a rookie, a pretty fair rookie but not really RG3 or Luck.  Brady's as accurate as they come and I have to believe that has some bearing on how many balls Lloyd caught.

    Apart from that, if what I've read and heard is true, Lloyd is a bit of head case and may very well be a locker room problem. I guess we'll know soon enough.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    Not to be contrary, but is it really a legit comparison - Lloyd vs Hartline?  Lloyd had the best QB in the game throwing to him and Hartline had a rookie, a pretty fair rookie but not really RG3 or Luck.  Brady's as accurate as they come and I have to believe that has some bearing on how many balls Lloyd caught.

    Apart from that, if what I've read and heard is true, Lloyd is a bit of head case and may very well be a locker room problem. I guess we'll know soon enough.



    It really isn't a good comparison but to be fair, and 49 pointed it out, Lloyd was the 4th and sometimes the 5th option in Brady's arsenal. Hartline was the main WR in Mia and the focus for most of the passing game

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to ATJ's comment:

     

    Not to be contrary, but is it really a legit comparison - Lloyd vs Hartline?  Lloyd had the best QB in the game throwing to him and Hartline had a rookie, a pretty fair rookie but not really RG3 or Luck.  Brady's as accurate as they come and I have to believe that has some bearing on how many balls Lloyd caught.

    Apart from that, if what I've read and heard is true, Lloyd is a bit of head case and may very well be a locker room problem. I guess we'll know soon enough.


    It really isn't a good comparison but to be fair, and 49 pointed it out, Lloyd was the 4th and sometimes the 5th option in Brady's arsenal. Hartline was the main WR in Mia and the focus for most of the passing game



    Which, in the final analysis, makes my point, although I know I didn't phrase it this way.  Too many variables to make this a legit comparison in my judgment.  There's no way of knowing if the '12 stats are skewed one way or the other.  

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    As far as targets go - the numbers were pretty equal between Hartline and Lloyd - so they caught about the same number and dropped about the same number and TB and Tannhill missed them about the same number. You can never do an exact comparison between two players on the same team let alone across teams, but I do think Lloyd/Hartline are about as close as you can get and much better than comparing either to Welker.

    It is also interesting to me that Hartline or his agent was talking about 8M/yr as their asking price a month ago which just shows how much hot air is thrown around. If they really thought that was a possibility they would have waited till at least tomorrow to test the waters. Wonder what that means for Jennings with the agent speak being 10M/yr.

    Wallace is the only receiver that I think will break the 10M per year barrier - he is young and fast. With players like Welker and Jennings who are older, the GM has to believe the window for SB challenge is in the next few years - otherwise you have spent big and the player is gone before the window opens. I know every team dreams that they are getting there next year, but good management needs to be more realistic.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    In response to alfred-e-bob-neumier's comment:

    I actually think Hartline is now the better receiver, especially given the age difference and future potential, something that definitely plays into his new contract numbers and works against Lloyd. In no way did Lloyd have a "bad" year, he just got blindsided by expectations given his production in St. Louis the year before. In reality, he played to his potential while here, for the most part. The large guarenteed $$$ due will probably croak him here this year.

    As far as being a head case that's always been his rep so it shouldn't be a huge surprise and they probably felt his old coach could handle that aspect of things. The stories coming out just before the guarenteed $$$ is due and free agency starts could also be a way to justify his exit. it wouldn't be the first time in this town someone's character was assasinated prior to a convenient parting of the ways.



    I agree on the age issue which is why Hartline got five at age 27 and Lloyd got 3 at age 30. I do find it interesting that Lloyds total deal was 3/12 and Hartline gets 12.5 presumably over 2+

    I didn't see the 'head case' story gain much following after the initial splash and think it was mostly just noise. So he isn't a very social guy - not like he was spouting off or causing fights. I think the team is strong enough to carry a few such players as long as they put the effort out on the field and in meetings/practice and there was never a hint that he wasn't doing that.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kansaspatriot. Show kansaspatriot's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    Hope they ship or cut Lloyd. He did nothing for our offense last year. I'd rather have Moss back that another season of Lloyd

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Lloyd vs. Hartline - value

    In response to mia76's comment:

    Ok - so we now have the contract details on Hartline (age 27) - Deal is 5 years 30.775M with a 12.5M guarantee - basically 6M/season with a 2 yr guarantee.

    Production: 74 receptions, 1083 yds, 1 TD, 48 first downs

    Lloyd (age 31) contract - two years remaining with a total of 10M or 5M/yr (2M dead money if cut before a 3M option bonus this year)

    Production: 74 receptions, 911 yds, 4 TD, 50 first downs

    Seems to me Lloyd represents pretty decent value based on current 'market'.

    And I am not that sure that 6M for Hartline at 27 with 12.5M guarantee is a worse deal than 8M for Welker at age 31 with 16M guarantee. They play different roles and positions but ...

    And I really don't think Miami can be seen to be overpaying here - small guarantee and medium per year cost for a youngish WR.



    Welker should get the same cash as Hartline only for 1 less year and with 2.5 more guaranteed

    4/30 with 15m bonus paid over 3 years 

     

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