Look at the bright side...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Look at the bright side...

    ...of having a world class offense and a less than stellar defense: we can all get rich by betting the over every week.

    But really, New Orleans gave up 360 yds per game on average last year and finished 25th in the league on defense.  When the Colts won the SB in 2006 they had a historically awful defense, particularly against the run.  The Giants gave up 80 points in their first two games in 2007.  

    This isn't your grandfather's NFL.  That defense wins championships thing is passe.  It's like persimmon in golf. 

    The doom and gloomers need to stop wringing their hands and see how it plays out a while longer.  The Pats keep putting up 38s, they'll win way more than not. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    Good post Muzwell.

    In the playoffs, winning teams averaged 32 points per game last year, 27 ppg in '08 and 31 ppg in '07. You've got to score points to advance.

    I'd still take the Steelers defense but I'm not sure their offense can score enough points to go far in the playoffs.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from apdynasty23. Show apdynasty23's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    EXCELLENT POSTS. And not just because I'm a fan that's always overly optimistic until the season ends (and THEN I get into critical mode and trying to help figure out the Pats going forward)

    I think Belichick knows what you know and that's why he's focusing so much on offense (tight ends and a balanced attack); he'll always be a defensive mastermind and he'll take great pride in putting together a top-5 defense but it won't happen overnight because of our youth and inexperience. Let these young kids play and gain experience and we'll evaluate them post-Thanksgiving. Plus, we have many (soon to be high) picks coming up in next year's draft.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from krismk. Show krismk's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

     "It's like persimmon in golf"


    The pros should dump the hi-tech materials...wood and brass only..go back to feather-balls, too.  Make a 450 yd par 5 challenging again.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from kansaspatriot. Show kansaspatriot's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    its always nice to have a balnace between defense and offense, but how mant teams really have it? yeah if we can get 40 points a game that would be sweet, if the defense gives up 20-30, we win
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE] "It's like persimmon in golf" The pros should dump the hi-tech materials...wood and brass only..go back to feather-balls, too.  Make a 450 yd par 5 challenging again.
    Posted by krismk[/QUOTE]

    I'd love to see them play just one tournament with '70s technology, balls too, on a modern course.  The older guys who actually remember how to hit those clubs would probably clean up.  Will never happen though.
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from apdynasty23. Show apdynasty23's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    My interpretation of what he said:

    Defenses don't have to be utterly and totally shut-down for a team to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL. Your defenses today can give up more yards and points than defenses of the past and still win.

    That's my take at least.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from irishfanatic. Show irishfanatic's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]Let's not kid ourselves. We all know what the situation is. The offense needs to spot the D at least 30 points per game. Simple as that, if they can do it we have a good chance of winning. To say defenses aren't what they used to be in the NFL is crazy. Did NO give up a lot of yards yes but wasn't the D responsible for the SB win? How about Freeney and Mathis in the Indy win and closer to home wasn't it the BB way to "bend and not break" during their time? Just because we don't have a great D doesn't mean we can say it isn't that important anymore. btw-I think you'd have to go pretty deep into the Champions Tour to find someone who remembers how to hit an actual wood.  
    Posted by Sam-Adams[/QUOTE]

    Not very deep in the Champions Tour really, as Bernard Langer was slow to change over from the persimmon Driver. Great thread this a Combo of Football and Golf. Life is good.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]... To say defenses aren't what they used to be in the NFL is crazy. Did NO give up a lot of yards yes but wasn't the D responsible for the SB win? How about Freeney and Mathis in the Indy win and closer to home wasn't it the BB way to "bend and not break" during their time? Just because we don't have a great D doesn't mean we can say it isn't that important anymore. btw-I think you'd have to go pretty deep into the Champions Tour to find someone who remembers how to hit an actual wood.  
    Posted by Sam-Adams[/QUOTE]

    Call me crazy.  A stifling defense is a nice luxury, but the rules are so slanted in favor of the offense these days that you better be able to score or you will not win consistently.  You just need a competent defense, not a great one to win a championship.  But you need to be able to score.  Unless the rules suddenly revert, there will never be another team like the 2000 Ravens that wins without an offense.  The Pats defense needs to improve, because right now it's borderline incompetent.  I think it can improve.  Will it?  Time will tell. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from memery26. Show memery26's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Look at the bright side... : Call me crazy.  A stifling defense is a nice luxury, but the rules are so slanted in favor of the offense these days that you better be able to score or you will not win consistently.  You just need a competent defense, not a great one to win a championship.  But you need to be able to score.  Unless the rules suddenly revert, there will never be another team like the 2000 Ravens that wins without an offense.  The Pats defense needs to improve, because right now it's borderline incompetent.  I think it can improve.  Will it?  Time will tell. 
    Posted by Muzwell[/QUOTE]


    Pretty much agree with this entire post. I do think the defense will continue to "gel" or whatever the heck the current catchphrase is for improving over time.It's hard to evaluate the overall talent of the team in division games, IMO (still remember 33-0 in 2003 to these same [hapless] Bills. A win against Baltimore and/or @ San Diego will tell me more about this team (and even more about the defense) than one Jets game or one Bills game.

    One thing I've always liked about Belichick's teams is the fact that they operate with the totality of the season in mind. We're continually putting pieces of a puzzle together, and the end picture won't be clear until, well, the end. It's like the difference between a sitcom and a series.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Look at the bright side... : Clearly an uneducated Pats fan... sorry if that is redundant.  Yes, defense wins championships is passe.  It's likely that happened immediately after the Pats last superbowl win.  Those darn statisticians working for the NFL may disagree, but what do they know?  Besides this, I mean: Six of the last 10 superbowl champs were either ranked 1,2, or 3 in D and 4 OF 10 were #1 Ds.  Wait a minute, what did you think passe means?  Maybe you're dead on.
    Posted by PhatRex[/QUOTE]

    He's probably talking much more recent, like post Polian passing rules.  Since then it has been

    2005 Steelers #4 DEF   #9 offense
    2006 Colts     #23 DEF  # 2 offense
    2007 NYG      #7  DEF   #14 offense
    2008 Steelers #1 DEF    #22 offense
    2009 Saints    #20 DEF  #1 offense

    (average)       #11 DEF   #9.6 off

    I know people like to say that the rules emphasis didn't change much except to Pats fans but take a look at the previous 5 years.

    2000 Ravens  #1 defense  #14 off
    2001 Pats     #6 defense  #6 off
    2002 TB        #1 defense  #18 off
    2003 Pats      #1 defense  #12 off
    2004 Pats      #2 defense  #4 off

    (average)      #2.2 DEF     #11 off

    Clearly things have changed.  Since 04 the average def rank of a SB winner is 11th, of the offense is 9.6.

    So yes, I would agree that the old axiom of defense wins championships is gone.  Simply put, better offenses and worse defenses now win championships  The numbers show that championships aren't favored by offenses or defenses now.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Look at the bright side... : Not very deep in the Champions Tour really, as Bernard Langer was slow to change over from the persimmon Driver. Great thread this a Combo of Football and Golf. Life is good.
    Posted by irishfanatic[/QUOTE]

    Not to get entirely off football, but it seems to me that if you're 45-ish and older, you grew up playing with persimmon so at least know what it feels like. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    The offense is great (top 3) and the defense is not very good. Just look at the yardage we gave up to rough Buffs offense. Can't stop the pass, can't stop the run. If not for a red zone INT the outcome could have gone against the PATS. Our one solace is that this is a very young defense with very young players (Spikes, Butler, Chung, Brace, Mc Courty and a number of 2nd year players getting significant playing time)in prominent roles formerly held by good veterans. Loss of Bodden (best CB) and Ty Warren (best DE) hurts alot and cuts the learning curve for young players to a very short space of time. I keep saying this defense will be better by week ten than it was in week three.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BitBenClot. Show BitBenClot's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    All is needded is a medyocra deffens to win itall. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsfan1033. Show Patsfan1033's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    I feel the style of defenses that win championships has changed...more of an attacking style, which the Patriots are not doing.  If you look at the winners from 05-09, the #1 thing they had in common was that these teams played various and predominately man coverages and threw in some zones here and there.  They liked using multiple blitz packages to create pressure with man coverage behind it and even the zone blitz scheme with DT's and DE's...speed & athleticism, creating and attacking...just my 2 cents!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]All is needded is a medyocra deffens to win itall. 
    Posted by BitBenClot[/QUOTE]

    Funny, I was just wondering whatever happened to Fr. Guido Sarducci and here he is.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from perfect72. Show perfect72's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    2007 Patriots anyone? You need defense to win the Superbowl. You need turnovers. You people are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. There's a difference between giving up yards and giving up points. Take a look at the last 10 superbowl winners. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NE, New Orleans, Colts. They all played good defense. They all stopped good offenses when they had to regardless of what their rankings were.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from apdynasty23. Show apdynasty23's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]2007 Patriots anyone? You need defense to win the Superbowl. You need turnovers. You people are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. There's a difference between giving up yards and giving up points. Take a look at the last 10 superbowl winners. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NE, New Orleans, Colts. They all played good defense. They all stopped good offenses when they had to regardless of what their rankings were.
    Posted by perfect72[/QUOTE]

    There's no debating that. Obviously, any champion would have had to stop the opposing team in crucial situations. What he's saying is that we don't necessarily have to wait around for this defense to become shut-down or top-5 just to be in the hunt for a title. No team has to these days as long as their offenses can put up points but still get critical stops when they need to. Can our defense be trusted to do that yet? No, not really. Then again, it's week 3. If it was week 13, I'd say we'd be fortunate to get into the playoffs and give a team some trouble on the road. That's it. It's only week 3 though and considering Belichick teams always hit their stride post-Thanksgiving, the jury is still out on what exactly we have here. Until then, enjoy the wins and understand there's going to be some stinkers along the way.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]2007 Patriots anyone? You need defense to win the Superbowl. You need turnovers. You people are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. There's a difference between giving up yards and giving up points. Take a look at the last 10 superbowl winners. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NE, New Orleans, Colts. They all played good defense. They all stopped good offenses when they had to regardless of what their rankings were.
    Posted by perfect72[/QUOTE]

    Not sure what your point is about the 2007 Pats?  They actually had a good defense, 4th in the league.  They lost by fluke.

    But the Colts and Saints did not play good defense the years they won it.  They won in spite of their defenses.  Did those defense make some plays, sure.  A blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.  But neither of those teams even sniffs the playoffs without their offenses playing at an extreme level.  Take Manning and Brees away from last year's Colts and Saints and how many games do they win?  Eight between them maybe?  It's an offense and more specifically, a QB-driven league.  That's how you win today.  

    I'm not saying defense is unimportant.  Far from it.  A defense that can get the other team off the field is great.  Makes life so much easier.  I'm saying it's clearly taken a back seat to offense with today's rules, that's all.  Obviously, balance is always better, and if you have a killer defense, then you may be able to get by with a less than great offense.  Like the Steelers a couple of years ago.  Great defense, solid offense.  But they could score points when they had to. 

    If you're going to beat teams like Indy and New Orleans when they're clicking, you better be able to score.  Because no matter how good your defense is, they will put up their points.

    That's just my observation anyway.  Reasonable people can disagree.  Trolls can die for all I care. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    I still use persimmons. I have a seven wood that is just awesome.

    Oh, and maybe you can win a championship with a below average defense, but I've got to believe that it lengthens your odds considerably.       
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimijazz. Show jimijazz's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    It's true that in the first half of the season the front runners are usually the teams with the hot offenses.  But as the season grinds on the defenses usually begin to tame those offenses.   Look back at 2007 as NE's offense began to struggle and at times was lackluster in the playoffs.  To stay in the hunt NE's defense will need to improve big time or else they will be another front runner that fades badly as the regular season comes to a close.

    The good news is they have the potential to be an adequate defense this season if they keep working hard and Mayo, Wilfork, and CHung never get injured.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from perfect72. Show perfect72's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    In Response to Re: Look at the bright side...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Look at the bright side... : Not sure what your point is about the 2007 Pats?  They actually had a good defense, 4th in the league.  They lost by fluke. But the Colts and Saints did not play good defense the years they won it.  They won in spite of their defenses.  Did those defense make some plays, sure.  A blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.  But neither of those teams even sniffs the playoffs without their offenses playing at an extreme level.  Take Manning and Brees away from last year's Colts and Saints and how many games do they win?  Eight between them maybe?  It's an offense and more specifically, a QB-driven league.  That's how you win today.   I'm not saying defense is unimportant.  Far from it.  A defense that can get the other team off the field is great.  Makes life so much easier.  I'm saying it's clearly taken a back seat to offense with today's rules, that's all.  Obviously, balance is always better, and if you have a killer defense, then you may be able to get by with a less than great offense.  Like the Steelers a couple of years ago.  Great defense, solid offense.  But they could score points when they had to.  If you're going to beat teams like Indy and New Orleans when they're clicking, you better be able to score.  Because no matter how good your defense is, they will put up their points. That's just my observation anyway.  Reasonable people can disagree.  Trolls can die for all I care. 
    Posted by Muzwell[/QUOTE]
    I'm not so sure about Saints and Colts having bad defenses. The colts still had Mathis and Freeney at DE while the Saints forced more turnovers than anyone in the league. The 2007 Pats lost to the Giants because NE couldn't control the D line of the giants. Eli Manning isn't exactly Brady out there. You need your defense to step up and make plays is my point. I think Bellicheck could use a defensive cordinator. I think he has too much on his plate IMO.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Look at the bright side...

    The issue is that opposing defenses in the playoffs will be good enough to stop our offense on a lot of drives.  Our D has to be good enough to stop their offense too or it won't be a contest.  Our D has had three bad halves (2nd half against Cincy, 2nd half against Jest, 1st half against Fitzgibbons) and three good halves.  My money is on a lot of good halves from this D come playoff time.

     
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