Mankins Expendible?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Mankins Expendible?

    Worst case scenario, Mankins chooses not to play. I don't think he'll do this, but one never is 100% sure.

    The Patriots have a chance to have a really, really strong left side (Vollmer and Mankins) that can help protect brady and create openings for the running game.

    Resign him at all cost or let him go?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    You never sign a player at all costs.  The player should never dictate a contract dispute.  Offer him something fair and take it from there.  If the player declines it's time to move on. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    The issue is a philosophical one. OG's have moved into the realm of OT's money wise for the top 5 or so. The drop off for the next level the next 5 or so is not really all that much so the issue to me is do you want to have a top 10 or so OG on your team? Mankins is a top 5 probably 3rd best though he could be the best if he gets rid of that little lazy streak he shows once in a while. Personally I think when you have a guy at QB that is that valuable (Brady) then you have to give him a very solid Left side and Light and Mankins or Vollmer Mankins long term is a solid left side.
    So talking money I think the Patriots have the money to sign him long term to a deal that pays him somewhere in that top 3 realm with out killing their ability to sign other tallent. 
    If It was me I would offer him the average of the top 3 contracts over a 5 year deal. If he didn't take it I would just make him play under the tender and franchise him in 2011. He either then takes basicly the same deal then or you work a trade for him.
     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Mankins Expendible?:
    Worst case scenario, Mankins chooses not to play. I don't think he'll do this, but one never is 100% sure. The Patriots have a chance to have a really, really strong left side (Vollmer and Mankins) that can help protect brady and create openings for the running game. Resign him at all cost or let him go?
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii


    I wouldn't mind getting compensation for him in a trade. He isn't worth the big bucks. I'm thinking if he gets traded, this is the look of our offensive line:

    Matt Light -- Rich Ohrnberger -- Dan Koppen -- Stephen Neal -- Sebastian Vollmer

    Not too shabby. We get a cheaper, solid alternative to fill in for Mankins, (Rich Ohrnberger), and we also get whatever compensation that is sent our way in a trade, (maybe another couple of draft picks?) I think this is a deal worth exploring and ultimately agreeing to if he price tag on Logan is unreasonable.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Let him go if he wants.  If he were so great, why haven't other teams given up a 1st round pick for him?

    Just like Wilfork, he's by no means invincible.  He gave up a crucial stip sack in the Broncos game in the 4th quarter.  He's the one who let Fat Albert squash Brady's shoulder in the pre-season.  And he's the one who couldn't handle Justin Tuck in the Super Bowl. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    Let him go if he wants.  If he were so great, why haven't other teams given up a 1st round pick for him? Just like Wilfork, he's by no means invincible.  He gave up a crucial stip sack in the Broncos game in the 4th quarter.  He's the one who let Fat Albert squash Brady's shoulder in the pre-season.  And he's the one who couldn't handle Justin Tuck in the Super Bowl. 
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    You're kidding, right?

    Mankins is one of the best guards in the NFL and is by far the Pats' best O-lineman. We'd be crazy to let him walk over money.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/positional-rankings/OFF/G
    http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2008-07-19/ranking-top-10-nfl-guards
     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : You're kidding, right? Mankins is one of the best guards in the NFL and is by far the Pats' best O-lineman. We'd be crazy to let him walk over money. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/positional-rankings/OFF/G http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2008-07-19/ranking-top-10-nfl-guards
    Posted by unclealfie


    I don't get this type of argument.  With guys like Wilfork, Mankins, Merriweather, Mayo, etc.  everyone on here says, "They are one of the best at their position.  They made the pro bowl in so many years and were DROY."  These are just generalizations.  The fact is all these players have major faults that have shown up on the field at crucial times.  They've all blown critical plays.  I'm not saying everyone on our team has to be perfect, I'm saying don't act like they are, and don't pay them mega millions if they aren't.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Mankins Expendible?:
    Worst case scenario, Mankins chooses not to play. I don't think he'll do this, but one never is 100% sure. The Patriots have a chance to have a really, really strong left side (Vollmer and Mankins) that can help protect brady and create openings for the running game. Resign him at all cost or let him go?
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii


    Mankins will sign and be ready at the start of TC, if not sooner. He's got zero leverage. He'll stay away from OTAs just to let it be known, he's not happy with his deal. He won't go so far as to tweak BB. If he does, he, along with his agent would become motor and mental morons.

    Mankins can still become UFA after this season. Holding out would cost him money. Moreover, you are overrating the guy. He's a guard. Guards can always be found in any draft. 2005 draft was weak in overall talent and the Pats had to settle with Mankins with the final pick in round 1. Believe me, guard wasn't at the top of their need list for round 1. Pro Bowl aside, Mankins has been a solid guard, nothing more. He was dreadful in SB42, and Osi and Tuck completely dominated him. Moreover, Mankins is very replaceable. The prospect of Vollmer at LT and Light moving inside to LG looks promising. Sebass is better Light at LT and Light should be as good, if not better, than Mankins at LG.  Guards who have been adequately replaced, while holding out do not improve their market status the following offseason.

    Mankins only logical choice is to sign his tender, continue his solid play, and then go the UFA route for 2011.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcour382. Show jcour382's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    its not sign him at any cost...
    a good example is damion woody mid round first came to free agency...and pats did not resign him... he went to lions for megabucks...and now hes with jets im sure for something more reasonable...  pats have drafted additional guard types the last two years and have a tendency not to overpay on the o-line and take nonames and train them up.... I dont think they will pay mankins anywhere close to 7-8 even if that is the going rate

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kebbe. Show kebbe's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

          every effort should be expended to resign mankins as he is one of the top 5-6 in the league at his position.however,if his demands are beyond the pale you franchise again and deal him.that's how the nfl,with a hard salary cap,works.the nfl will never sign a new cba without a cap.the only question is what percentage of the revenues the palyers will  get.the nflpa knows this and dispite their protests to the contrary what they fight for is a higher percentagewhich is what they were doing during the initial negotiations(the owners had significantly cut the percentage offerd from the previous cba)and th nflpa will fight the cut.why the nflpa is so vehemently against a rookie salary remains a mystery to me unless they believe if the rookies,especially the to 10-15 picks overall,get more the vets will as well,something that hasn't been the case in the past.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    Ohrnberger sounds nice but we have not seen him and the Pats are kicking the tires on Procter so they can not think a whole lot of Ohrnberger or Connolly. Posted by One-If-By-Sea


    So any time the team has a player in for a workout, it means they don't think a whole lot of the players on the roster?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from gridlocked. Show gridlocked's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Really what are we talking about here for money?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from isurfvb35. Show isurfvb35's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    i hope the pats can keep him on board he is young and is a monster lg, one of the best in the league. we at least have him for another year and maybe the thinking at patriots place is with 2first and 2second rounders next year why overpay when u can draft a young guy in round 1 or 2. either way it will all work itself out.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Mankins is the best Offensive Lineman on our team, by no means is he one of the top 5 OGs in the league. He should take what the Pats are giving because he won't get much else on FA. He needs to stop acting like a baby, Wilfork showed what treating the Patriots with patience can do for you. Mankins is one of those bums who only cares about getting paid.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : I don't get this type of argument.  With guys like Wilfork, Mankins, Merriweather, Mayo, etc.  everyone on here says, "They are one of the best at their position.  They made the pro bowl in so many years and were DROY."  These are just generalizations.  The fact is all these players have major faults that have shown up on the field at crucial times.  They've all blown critical plays.  I'm not saying everyone on our team has to be perfect, I'm saying don't act like they are, and don't pay them mega millions if they aren't.
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    1.) No player is perfect. Period. Even the ones who get "mega millions."

    I have some news. Brady made more on the field mistakes last season than any of those guys.

    2.) The reason no one gave up a first, is because you don't give up a first for negotiation rights. It has little to do with the player's actual value, and more to do with the hassle of having to negotiate a new contract.

    3.) Mankins is not the best. But he is one of the best in the NFL, and should (like Fork) get a contract that pays him as such. Not record breaking, but very near the top. If he doesn't here, someone else will.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : 1.) No player is perfect. Period. Even the ones who get "mega millions." I have some news. Brady made more on the field mistakes last season than any of those guys. 2.) The reason no one gave up a first, is because you don't give up a first for negotiation rights. It has little to do with the player's actual value, and more to do with the hassle of having to negotiate a new contract. 3.) Mankins is not the best. But he is one of the best in the NFL, and should (like Fork) get a contract that pays him as such. Not record breaking, but very near the top. If he doesn't here, someone else will.
    Posted by zbellino


    You are right, as always.  But for the sake of disagreeing with you:

    1) Wrong

    2)  Sorry, I don't think so.

    3) Yeah right.

    Response?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    Whoa. Slow down. He's not a bum and he's not really complaining other than simply wondering when his deal might be completed.   As of now, the two sides are not close and that is likely tied directly to the new CBA not being known yet. Note how a certain #12's deal isn't done either.
    Posted by russgriswold


    Sorry, Rus. He's pulling an Asante. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from magicalhobo. Show magicalhobo's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Every year there's usually at least one surprising cut or big name released and one player no one expected to make the team make it. I'm fully expecting this to happen again this year, and Mankins could be the one that's let go. I'll never try to guess though, because I'm usually wrong and one of my favorites are let go. I'm glad I couldn't see the look on my face when I read that Vrabel was traded...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Overpay for a guard? You are joking right? They can replace Mankins easily next year if necessary in the draft. If he was as talented playing tackle as he is guard then that is another story. It just isn't a break the bank position when it is probably the easiest position to replace in all of football. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    Mankins is one of the best guards in the league.  Beyond the issue of continuity, he brings a mean streak to the Pats line and he would be a significant loss on multiple levels (performance and attitude) if we were forced to trade him or he leaves next year.

    I'd like to see the Pats get something done in the same way that they got something done for Wilfork.  It sends the right message: that if you perform, we will pay you.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    @Macrawn:

    Originally Published: August 6, 2008

    Why The Left Tackle Is Overrated

    Everyone knows the left tackle is the most important position on the offensive line, right? The stats say no, writes KC Joyner.

    Joyner By KC Joyner
    ESPN Insider
    Archive

    Many of you probably are familiar with Michael Lewis' book "The Blind Side." It recounts a young player's struggles to adapt to his new environment. From a football perspective, Lewis paints a compelling picture of how valuable the left tackle is to NFL teams.


    As excellent as Lewis' research was, after reading the book, I still had some doubt as to the real value of the left tackle. I understood how much it meant to Bill Walsh to have someone capable of blocking Lawrence Taylor. I also had a better understanding of why left tackles are paid so much. But I still didn't have a good sense of how much more valuable a left tackle is than, say, a right guard.
    So, what is the real value of the left tackle? I dedicated the lead chapter of my new book, "Blindsided: Why the Left Tackle is Overrated and Other Contrarian Football Thoughts," to that very subject. In the book, I detailed both run and pass blocking analyses, but for the sake of brevity, I can summarize the run blocking portion by saying the metrics show left tackles by themselves don't have a significant effect on the running game.
    That really isn't surprising, and it isn't the reason posited by Lewis as to why left tackles are paid a premium. Their perceived value is in the passing game, so I looked at the effect left tackles have by using pass blocking metrics derived from "Scientific Football 2006." Since I have the updated 2007 pass blocking metrics for "Scientific Football 2008," I thought it would be interesting to pair some of the comparative methods used in "Blindsided" with this past year's totals.
    The starting point was looking at how many total sacks each team allowed and how many sacks the left tackle(s) on those teams allowed. Here are the 2007 totals in those categories.

    RankTeamSacks AllowedLeft Tackle Sacks Allowed
    1.Saints163
    2.Bengals175.5
    T3.Browns192
    T3.Packers194
    5.Patriots215.5
    6.Texans228
    7.Colts235.5
    T8.Cardinals241.5
    T8.Chargers248.5
    10.Cowboys251
    11.Buffalo265
    12.Giants2812.5
    13.Redskins296
    14.Titans304.5
    15.Jaguars316.5
    16.Broncos323.5
    17. Panthers338.5
    T18.Bucs364
    T18.Seahawks365.5
    20.Vikings387
    21.Ravens392
    22.Raiders4110
    23.Dolphins423
    24.Bears438
    T25.Falcons474.5
    T25.Steelers479
    27.Rams482.5
    28.Eagles4910
    29.Jets538.5
    30.Lions5414
    T31.49ers5510.5
    T31.Chiefs559.5


    The rank column is important for reasons I will explain in just a moment, so please keep it in the back of your mind.
    The next step was to look at the percentage of team sacks each left tackle gave up. The goal was to see which left tackles were weak pass-blockers in comparison with the rest of their team's offensive line.
    The interesting part of the review came when I resorted the charts by the left tackle sack percentage but left the original team sack total rankings in place (the rankings I mentioned a couple of lines back). Here's what the chart looks like when resorted.

    RankTeamSacks AllowedLT Sacks AllowedLT % Of Total Sacks
    10.Cowboys2514.0%
    21.Ravens3925.1%
    27.Rams482.55.2%
    T8.Cardinals241.56.3%
    23.Dolphins4237.1%
    T25.Falcons474.59.6%
    T3.Browns19210.5%
    16.Broncos323.510.9%
    T18.Bucs36411.1%
    14.Titans304.515.0%
    T18.Seahawks365.515.3%
    29.Jets538.516.0%
    T31.Chiefs559.517.3%
    20.Vikings38718.4%
    24.Bears43818.6%
    1.Saints16318.8%
    T31.49ers5510.519.1%
    T25.Steelers47919.1%
    11.Bills26519.2%
    28.Eagles491020.4%
    13.Redskins29620.7%
    15.Jaguars316.521.0%
    T3.Packers19421.1%
    7.Colts235.523.9%
    22.Raiders411024.4%
    17.Panthers338.525.8%
    30.Lions541425.9%
    5.Patriots215.526.2%
    2.Bengals175.532.4%
    T8.Chargers248.535.4%
    6.Texans22836.4%
    12.Giants2812.544.6%


    This shows that many teams with bad pass blocking lines have very good left tackles, or they at least have left tackles who give up few sacks relative to the rest of the offensive line. For example: Miami, Baltimore and St. Louis all finished 21st or worst in overall sacks and allowed a combined 129 sacks, yet their left tackles were responsible for only 7.5 of those sacks.
    There also is an interesting trend for some of the teams near the bottom of the list. Cincinnati, San Diego and Houston all finished in the top eight in sacks allowed, having given up only 63 sacks among them. That means that in general, their players were good pass-blockers. However, their left tackles struggled mightily, giving up 22 of those 63 sacks.
    The conclusion I came to in "Blindsided" is that this occurs because defenses choose the path of shortest distance as often as possible when pass rushing. If the offense has a pass blocking weakness at any of the guard or center positions, the defense's plan always will be to target those players first because that is the quickest route to the quarterback. That's what happened in the cases of the Dolphins, Ravens and Rams.
    When the up-the-middle option is not available because of good interior blocking, defenses then target the next-fastest route, which typically is around the left tackle. The Bengals, Chargers and Texans all had solid blocking up the middle, and that is why their left tackles were tested.
    That latter example is the only case in which a really good pass-blocking left tackle helps, but it still doesn't take an elite left tackle to win the Super Bowl. For proof of this, just look at the Giants and their left tackle last year, David Diehl. He gave up 12.5 sacks, the second-most by any left tackle, and New York still was able to go all the way.

    KC Joyner, aka the Football Scientist, is a regular contributor to ESPN Insider. His core coverage metrics for all skill-position players and cornerbacks are available in the ESPN Fantasy Football Magazine. His new book "Blindsided: Why The Left Tackle is Overrated and Other Contrarian Football Thoughts," is available in bookstores and on Amazon.com. For more information, check out KC's Web site, www.thefootballscientist.com.

     
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    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible? : You are right, as always.  But for the sake of disagreeing with you: 1) Wrong 2)  Sorry, I don't think so. 3) Yeah right. Response?
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    lmao....
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Re: Mankins Expendible?:
    Overpay for a guard? You are joking right? They can replace Mankins easily next year if necessary in the draft. If he was as talented playing tackle as he is guard then that is another story. It just isn't a break the bank position when it is probably the easiest position to replace in all of football. 
    Posted by Macrawn


    Isn't it about winning THIS year? If we keep on sayin' "NEXT YEAR", well....next thing ya know...it's just over.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Clay73. Show Clay73's posts

    Re: Mankins Expendible?

    In Response to Mankins Expendible?:
    Worst case scenario, Mankins chooses not to play. I don't think he'll do this, but one never is 100% sure. The Patriots have a chance to have a really, really strong left side (Vollmer and Mankins) that can help protect brady and create openings for the running game. Resign him at all cost or let him go?
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii


    He wants to be here and Bill wants him here.  He likes his linemates, he likes Scar and I think the deal will get done.  He is by far our best run blocker and his pass protection is pretty darn good also.  He grades out the highest on our line to this point.  If the Peppers deal had gone to the Pats we might be in trouble with him, money wise but I think he will get a deal.  He is our kind of "family man" and the Kraft family thinks that is important.  I think both sides with find the middle here sometime soon.
     

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