Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from sday4x4. Show sday4x4's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    how much preseason preparation did Ocho have last year TexasPat3 ? Pats are know to have complicated system.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Tex, he had the same low snap count that he had in the SB. The most snaps he had was vs the Giants and Brady missed him badly all game...cmon man!

    If you wanna put it on B.B. , go ahead, he signed him.  IDk, why he didnt play but it wasnt because of playbook or ability. The Giants game proved that.

    Also, this is the only Year that Wes was actually asked to go deep and had several games this past year where he ran 7 routes, 9 routes , etc, so please dont make excuses for a guy who has caught over 700 balls since coming here. Maybe Bradys' throw was a tad off, but not because he was hurt right?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]Ocho Had At least 6 dropped passes and 15 receptions , tell is there any WR prospect who is younger faster  that cant produce that number , If you had Stallworth instead he would have given at least 30 receptions , chad has done his year with the pats no production time to move on and save a roster spot for some one who can produce the 6M salary is what kept chads job not his production 
    Posted by yakv[/QUOTE]

    Alright yakv-  First off, let's ALL try to at least attempt to here on this board, try to angle the stats we're proffering within our posts, perhaps back a bit towards maybe actual fact-based reality...  It's not just you man, really that 400 post thread by babe crushed many of us truth-lovers...  

    Ocho caught only 15 receptions, but was credited with at least 6 dropped passes this year...?  Then just offer us the link...  Same with Mayo making only 1.25 mil in the upcoming year (after signing something like a 5 year 30 million dollar contract), and same with Ocho makin' 6 mil this past year (I thought it was 5 mil)....?  Just offer us up the links please for simple reference sake, considering that now it appears to be the recent norm on this forum, to offer up any and all inaccurate figures people want, simply to bolster their given claims (again, not pointing towards you yourself, in these recent threads). 

    ~~~

    Fact is, the very simple reality which others are pointing out on this topic, IS very poignant in terms of what NE can even hope to possibly do about their wide receiver corps in the upcoming season...

    Even IF and when Welker gets tagged or actually resigned, NE's STILL left with scary uncertainties everywhere ELSE other than the slot wideout position...  And even IF any argument says that NE would rather deploy 2 TEs and just 2 WRs (as opposed to more instances of showing more 3 wideout sets with a #1 type, a possession #2 wideout, along with their #3 slot wideout), The Patriots STILL have simply an enormously concernable gap at this position...

    Branch is old and every year (every...single...year), You can count on Branch getting injured (sometimes major, & season-wide...sometimes minor, missing a span of game(s)).  So you'd rather go into the year with Welker (IF no holdout) and Edelman (same spot @ backup slot)...then Branch...and then after these 2=ANY-one and EVERY-one else brand new to NE's insanely complicated passing system wherein wideouts need to make adjustments ad hoc and in unison with Brady each and every single time they step up alone at the LOS, and only THEN see what the defense is showing and what they MUST do in their various alterations right before every snap?  Crazy man....  NE's Passing O is Soooo complicated- On 1 hand you absolutely NEED to temper the fact that Ocho's total lack of production for this season-wide length of time, IS (was)- really a long interval- BUT (with) the notion of once again, just HOW complicated NE's passing Offense is (especially to a player who's overall "game" in his career was both HOF-worthy in his unique skill-set and who's vet experience was limited to 1 single NFL team throughout his entire career).

    This moves a no-brainer... Ya get Ocho to take a pay-cut, pray Welker won't make a stink about being franchised, and you're STILL not 1, but 2(!) wide receivers short of having any real credible corp of guys at that position (you'd STILL need a decent vet and a decent draftee...or a "project" draftee along with much more of a higher-priced stud veteran at wideout).

    NE HAS to shore up Ocho...right now...this second.  They need to see how Ocho plays this one out, in order to fully determine just how desperate they might be (really, really utterly desperate...or just sorta well-above average desperate)-  This Ocho thing determines much- It determines draft, It determines how Welker might play his own hand...  Ya need to resolve this Ocho thing 1 way or another...he ain't worth that price tag, but given NE's completely uncertain void, you'd like someone who actually already suffered through that chemistry-with-Brady, crazy NE Offense, Learning curve already, right?      
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Good points Laz?

    Also how many of those 6 drops were bad passes. Besides the Buffalo TD catch, I cant recall him dropping any other "catchable" balls.

    If The Sb pass to Wes was Bad, then most his passes to Ocho during the year were horrible.

    He undressed Webster in the Giants game and was open and waiting for the ball but it was late and behind him.

    In the SB where he could have had an impact, they gave him ONE snap.

    Anyone ever think it was Brady's lack of deep ball accuracy that kept Ocho on the bench???
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Laz is sounding quite sensible . . . but even if you follow Laz's sensible advice, you still need to bring in a few free agents or draft picks to shore up the position even beyond Welker and Ocho . . .

    Brady really deserves at least one wideout who's not a smurf, washed up, a small-school quarterback, a street free agent with a bizzaro hairdo, or some other freak of nature . . . he needs a guy who might actually be able to start on another decent offense in the NFL. 

    The fact that BB can figure out how to win games with a freak show is admirable, but really haven't we had enough of this Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey crew at wideout?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

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    In Response to Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]Chad Ochocinco  - WR -  Patriots According to the Sports Business Journal, the Patriots have "approached Chad Ochocinco about restructuring his contract." The news is only surprising in that the Patriots are even giving Ochocinco the opportunity to take a pay-cut from his current scheduled 2012 salary of $3.1 million. His out-right release seemed more likely. However, the Boston Globe reported Tuesday that Ochocinco could be back with the Pats in 2012 under a restructured deal, and then subject to release. If Ocho bristles at a pay-cut, he could force his release and take his chances on the open market. Dont go that way been there , done that lets move on and draft 2WR. No more ocho no play boko
    Posted by yakv[/QUOTE]
    It is called keeping options "open" and he can be released.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Do you guys really believe that the Pats really need a WR/Deep threat ? Do you realistically believe that Brady will throw under 4000 yrds if the Pats don't sign Mike Wallace ? What happens when we get Wallace or Lloyd; Brady throws for 6000 yrds and the Pats lose in the playoffs because they have a mediocre defense and no running game. I thought the goal was to win championships and you can't do that with deficiencies at many positions (FS, CB, OLB, DE).
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

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    I'm gonna ask a very simple question. Would you rather have Goldson, D. Ware or Wallace ? Choose one.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

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    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]Do you guys really believe that the Pats really need a WR/Deep threat ? Do you realistically believe that Brady will throw under 4000 yrds if the Pats don't sign Mike Wallace ? What happens when we get Wallace or Lloyd; Brady throws for 6000 yrds and the Pats lose in the playoffs because they have a mediocre defense and no running game. I thought the goal was to win championships and you can't do that with deficiencies at many positions (FS, CB, OLB, DE).
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz[/QUOTE]

    There are lots of ways to win.  My own personal preference would be to improve the defense, which probably means bringing in a minimum of one stud DB (either safety or corner), and one stud edge defender (OLB/DE) among the front seven. Ideally, we'd bring in at least four starting-quality defensive players: one safety, one corner, one OLB, and one DE--plus maybe another DT if we're playing 4-3.

    However, I don't think you can completely ignore the offense.  Shoring up the running game is important, but so is getting a receiver with some speed and size to beat safeties and corners on the perimeter and/or deep.  We need a receiver who can force defenses to back their corners and safeties away from the LOS and the middle of the field. 

    I guess if it were possible to turn the defense into the 49ers defense in one offseason you could ignore the offense.  But the likelihood is that the defense is only going to take a few steps forward and is still going to have some problems, so that means we'll want to improve the offense too if we want to have a strong chance of competing for the Super Bowl title again next year. 

     
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from yakv. Show yakv's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Laz lets look at info just for you:

    5.5 M restructured not including bonuses .

    look also at 

    chad dropping balls in SB warmup

    have you heard about a reciever  dropping passes in SB warmup??

    learn your facts 
    the guy is done even moss can get better seperation 

    22 snaps one catch he couldn't get separation that's why he caught one pass 
    let ocho find a new home where they can use him better


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]Do you guys really believe that the Pats really need a WR/Deep threat ? Do you realistically believe that Brady will throw under 4000 yrds if the Pats don't sign Mike Wallace ? What happens when we get Wallace or Lloyd; Brady throws for 6000 yrds and the Pats lose in the playoffs because they have a mediocre defense and no running game. I thought the goal was to win championships and you can't do that with deficiencies at many positions (FS, CB, OLB, DE).
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz[/QUOTE]


    We're on the same page here Hannah.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!! : We're on the same page here Hannah.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
    I agree with Hannah and True..   a real good defense can solve a lot of ills and the offense is not that ill at all!!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Does anyone believe that if our defense was atleast able to force 2 "3 and outs" in the Sb, we win that game going away?

    I do.

    All that offense needed was a couple more possesions or more time to work with.

    We can point to "deep threats" but when your defense is on the field all day, that is the "real" Issue

    All this with a First time Go to Guy in Gronk.

    Joshy doesnt need much to keep this offense going. If its true LLoyd is following him here. We get a good Center, maybe another RB, franchise wes, the offense is fine.

    There are plenty of defensive players who need to be replaced.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Agree Jayshiz. If we draft a stud DT or DE for the 4-3 Wilfork doesn't get doubled nearly as much and the Pats D gets more pressure up the middle.

    If Gronk is healthy and Welker is signed all the WR corps needs is depth. Now if Vollmer is not healthy what happens at LT (Solder or Cannon). Waters could be gone which means a hole at RG (Connally?). Point is at some point you have to look at positional value. Brady, Welker and Gronk are all great players, but if the Pats O has a turnstile at LT the offense (and its skill players) are in real trouble.

    I think Ridley has potential, but he absolutely cannot fumble. Vereen has skill, but is an unknown quantity and inexperienced. Contrast this with what Faulk was (say three years ago or before injuries) and what Law Firm is (never fumbles). You could make a cogent argument that signing or drafting a RB is as important as signing a FA WR. Brady can get a lampost 30-40 receptions (see Stallworth). If Law Firm leaves Woodhead is #1 on the depth chart at RB.

    Secondary needs playmaker at either CB or FS. The D is predicated on playing great situational football (which they did down the stretch and in the playoffs) and turnovers. So yeah if the D (Spikes I think) recovers the 12 man fumble the complexion of the Super Bowl changes.

    Too many people look at the Free Agency period like it is given when, in fact, it is much a gamble (see Adalius) as the draft and almost always more expensive. Teams obviously use different schemes and you have to incorporate players that fit your scheme; not just sign whichever guy made the pro-bowl in 2012.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    This is why you shore up cheap guys in free agency that fit your system.

    I think B.B has some redeeming to do after last year getting Aintsworth and Ocho Stinko who werent good fits.

    The only reason I am endorsing Ocho is because I know he can still run and I figure after investing a year, why start over again with someone new,

    NOt sure what a hall of fame guy at age 33 would command in the market, but I think if we got R.Wayne, franchised Wes and kept Ocho we are All set and then shore up O and D line. Get a Safety in Free Agency, draft a nice young CB.

    SB again, no question.

    But we need to spread the ball more on offense and stop overusing Wes n Gronk IMO
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!



    I agree with all that the defense is most important--and Jay, I definitely agree that if the defense were better the outcome of the Super Bowl may have been different. 

    I'd add, though, that a more diverse offense (with additional weapons to turn to when Gronk was hurt) could also have resulted in a different outcome in the Super Bowl.  I guess what I'm saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat.  The best way might be to improve the defense, but there are other ways that might work too--and there's no harm in trying to upgrade both the defense and the offense,

    I think additional receiving weapons would help this team.  Getting better defenders is more important, but I don't think we should ignore bringing in at least a few mid-level free agent receivers to compete with Branch and Ocho for the second, third, and fourth wide receiver slots after Welker (assuming we sign Welker).   And if we can bring in a high-profile guy, I'm not opposed to that either, as long as we don't completely ignore the big issues on the defense. 




     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    Agreed.

    More options on offense THAT WILL BE USED so if/when a Gronk or Wes is out, we arent struggling to incorporate newbies at the last minute(see T.Underwood)

    Defense is  a No Brainer. We were almost last in pass defense in a passing league!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrtm70. Show mrtm70's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    I think one problem that Pats had (once again & against the GMen again) is that Brady & the OC relied too much on one guy again!  What I mean is Gronk!  Just like Moss in '07!  The Pats offensive game plan relied too much on 1 offensive player & especiallywith Brady going ALWAYS to that one player all year as his security blanket!  We were all excited about the Brady to Gronk of '11, but just like they figured out RM & our offense in '07, with Gronk hurt in the SB, the OC DID NOT adjust to a game plan without Gronk and spreading the ball around like past SBs & the offensive players fed negatively into that.  Like others have stated, I do not understand why Chad was not game planned more into the SB but O'Brian is at fault for that.  Chad should be allowed to come back & compete in camp, it's as simple as that! $$$ Numbers withstanding of course.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from yakv. Show yakv's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE] Like others have stated, I do not understand why Chad was not game planned more into the SB but O'Brian is at fault for that.  Chad should be allowed to come back & compete in camp, it's as simple as that! $$$ Numbers withstanding of course.
    Posted by mrtm70[/QUOTE]


    22 snaps one catch he couldn't get separation that's why he caught one pass 
    let ocho find a new home where they can use him better,
    Lets Say It Agin Chad Can't Get sepration doesnt know The routes ,
    doesnt line up well  Has to be told during the play were to line up, 
    doesnt know the no huddle offense.

    bring in new blood
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!! :      Who was productive as a #4 WR?? Ocho??? You've got to be kidding. The guy had 15 receptions over a 16 game season, with one TD. Is that your idea of production?      I'd rather see the Pats bring in younger guy and work with him, than go another year with this washed up relic.
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Texas, first how many teams have #4 WR's that have more then 15rec without major injures to their WR core? Not many. You can go down the list is very small. Second on this team we have 2 pro-bowl caliber TE's. That means a #4 WR is in reality the 6th receiving option (not including RB's). How many teams 6th receiving option gets more rec's then Ocho? When you put it into context he produced as the 4th WR. The problem is that he's getting paid like a #1/2 WR. If he was making the vet min then I think your outlook would be different about his production. It's the salary that blinds that and it's that salary as to why I want him off the team, nothing else
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]Laz lets look at info just for you: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/6851472/albert-haynesworth-chad-ochocinco-take-pay-cuts-new-england-patriots 5.5 M restructured not including bonuses . look also at  http://nyjetscap.com/Patriots/patriots2012.php chad dropping balls in SB warmup http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/34709665 have you heard about a reciever  dropping passes in SB warmup?? learn your facts  the guy is done even moss can get better seperation  http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4717428/offensive-snaps-gronk-reduction 22 snaps one catch he couldn't get separation that's why he caught one pass  let ocho find a new home where they can use him better
    Posted by yakv[/QUOTE]

    Yakv~

    Which one of these links again that'chr now offering here, has to do with the statistical evidence I asked that you might simply offer to Us based on the statistics from your initial claim?  Is it the filler preseason ESPN article RE: Ochocinco's and Haynesworth's initial contract analysis(es) of this past season from half a year + ago (ya know, the bad article that shows you're incorrect anyways)...Orrrr should I read the random and unrefernced numbers thrown quickly onto a half page of Pats upcoming 2012 team cap number from a god know's what(?!) personal poster's New York Jets own salary cap Website....Orrr, Did ya want me to give your thoughts a hearty nod based on that 2 inch CBS article from some guy I've never heard of who's discussing that Ochocinco svx because that guy saw Ocho drop 2 passes in the pre-Superbowl warm-up drills...Orrrr, And I'm still attempting to figure out the last correlation where Moss is better than Ocho=Because Moss can still get seperation=And it's ALL clearly evident and iron-clad because Ochocinco didn't have alota snaps in the Superbowl...?

    Look, ya know what?  We're good...you really, really, REALLY don't need to gimme any more "proof" of validity behind your simple numerical claims-  It's pretty clear to me, that'll it be a waste of both of our time... 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!! : Texas, first how many teams have #4 WR's that have more then 15rec without major injures to their WR core? Not many. You can go down the list is very small. Second on this team we have 2 pro-bowl caliber TE's. That means a #4 WR is in reality the 6th receiving option (not including RB's). How many teams 6th receiving option gets more rec's then Ocho? When you put it into context he produced as the 4th WR. The problem is that he's getting paid like a #1/2 WR. If he was making the vet min then I think your outlook would be different about his production. It's the salary that blinds that and it's that salary as to why I want him off the team, nothing else
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Good passing teams often have high production from their third and fourth wideouts.  Here's GB as an example (wideouts with 20+ catches in red):

    WR Jordy Nelson 68126318.69315
    WR Greg Jennings 6794914.2799
    TE Jermichael Finley 5576713.9418
    WR James Jones 3863516.7707
    WR Donald Driver 3744512.0356
    RB James Starks 292167.4170
    WR Randall Cobb 2537515.0611
    RB Ryan Grant 1926814.1801
    RB John Kuhn 15775.1112
    RB Brandon Saine 10696.9220
    TE Tom Crabtree 6386.3151
    TE Andrew Quarless 33612.0210
    TE D.J. Williams 2136.570
    RB Alex Green 166.060
    TE Ryan Taylor 144.041

    They don't have quite the same production from the TE (one highly productive TE instead of two), but they have better production from their RBs.  You have to go down to their ninth receiver (a RB) to get to just 15 catches.  Now GB and NO have more good receivers than most NFL teams, but the comparison is a fair one because NE is also a passing team with an explosive offense much like NO and GB.

    Here for reference is NO's receiving stats:

    TE Jimmy Graham 99131013.25911
    RB Darren Sproles 867108.3397
    WR Marques Colston 80114314.3508
    WR Lance Moore 5262712.1478
    RB Pierre Thomas 504258.5571
    WRRobert Meachem 4062015.5676
    WR Devery Henderson 3250315.7792
    RB Jed Collins 11504.5142
    RB Mark Ingram 11464.290
    TE David Thomas 5163.280
    TE John Gilmore 3206.791
    WR Adrian Arrington 23115.5170
    TE Mike Higgins 144.040

    And here are the Pats' receiving stats (stunning difference!): 

    Wes Welker 122156912.9999
    Rob Gronkowski 90132714.75217
    Aaron Hernandez 7991011.5467
    Deion Branch 5170213.8635
    Danny Woodhead 181578.7160
    Chad Ochocinco 1527618.4531
    BenJarvus Green-Ellis 915917.7530
    Kevin Faulk 7344.9180
    Julian Edelman 4348.5110
    Tiquan Underwood 33010.0130
    Stevan Ridley 3134.380
    Matthew Slater 14646.0460


    For perspective, here's the fourth best passing team, the Lions--they go only three deep at wideout, but they still have 8 guys with 20 or more catches, compared with just 4 for the Pats.

    WR Calvin Johnson 96168117.57316
    TE Brandon Pettigrew 837779.4275
    WR Nate Burleson 7375710.4473
    WR Titus Young 4860712.6576
    RB Jahvid Best 2728710.6601
    TE Tony Scheffler 2634713.3366
    RB Maurice Morris 262308.8161
    RB Kevin Smith 221798.1283
    RB Keiland Williams 8627.8120
    TE Will Heller 6427.0120
    WR Rashied Davis 46315.8220
    RB Stefan Logan 11919.0190
    Aaron Brown 199.090
    Maurice Stovall 188.080
    Jerome Harrison 133.030
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!! : Good passing teams often have high production from their third and fourth wideouts.  Here's GB as an example (wideouts with 20+ catches in red): WR Jordy Nelson 68 1263 18.6 93 15 WR Greg Jennings 67 949 14.2 79 9 TE Jermichael Finley 55 767 13.9 41 8 WR James Jones 38 635 16.7 70 7 WR Donald Driver 37 445 12.0 35 6 RB James Starks 29 216 7.4 17 0 WR Randall Cobb 25 375 15.0 61 1 RB Ryan Grant 19 268 14.1 80 1 RB John Kuhn 15 77 5.1 11 2 RB Brandon Saine 10 69 6.9 22 0 TE Tom Crabtree 6 38 6.3 15 1 TE Andrew Quarless 3 36 12.0 21 0 TE D.J. Williams 2 13 6.5 7 0 RB Alex Green 1 6 6.0 6 0 TE Ryan Taylor 1 4 4.0 4 1 They don't have quite the same production from the TE (one highly productive TE instead of two), but they have better production from their RBs.  You have to go down to their ninth receiver (a RB) to get to just 15 catches.  Now GB and NO have more good receivers than most NFL teams, but the comparison is a fair one because NE is also a passing team with an explosive offense much like NO and GB. Here for reference is NO's receiving stats: TE Jimmy Graham 99 1310 13.2 59 11 RB Darren Sproles 86 710 8.3 39 7 WR Marques Colston 80 1143 14.3 50 8 WR Lance Moore 52 627 12.1 47 8 RB Pierre Thomas 50 425 8.5 57 1 WR Robert Meachem 40 620 15.5 67 6 WR Devery Henderson 32 503 15.7 79 2 RB Jed Collins 11 50 4.5 14 2 RB Mark Ingram 11 46 4.2 9 0 TE David Thomas 5 16 3.2 8 0 TE John Gilmore 3 20 6.7 9 1 WR Adrian Arrington 2 31 15.5 17 0 TE Mike Higgins 1 4 4.0 4 0 And here are the Pats' receiving stats (stunning difference!):  Wes Welker 122 1569 12.9 99 9 Rob Gronkowski 90 1327 14.7 52 17 Aaron Hernandez 79 910 11.5 46 7 Deion Branch 51 702 13.8 63 5 Danny Woodhead 18 157 8.7 16 0 Chad Ochocinco 15 276 18.4 53 1 BenJarvus Green-Ellis 9 159 17.7 53 0 Kevin Faulk 7 34 4.9 18 0 Julian Edelman 4 34 8.5 11 0 Tiquan Underwood 3 30 10.0 13 0 Stevan Ridley 3 13 4.3 8 0 Matthew Slater 1 46 46.0 46 0 For perspective, here's the fourth best passing team, the Lions--they go only three deep at wideout, but they still have 8 guys with 20 or more catches, compared with just 4 for the Pats. WR Calvin Johnson 96 1681 17.5 73 16 TE Brandon Pettigrew 83 777 9.4 27 5 WR Nate Burleson 73 757 10.4 47 3 WR Titus Young 48 607 12.6 57 6 RB Jahvid Best 27 287 10.6 60 1 TE Tony Scheffler 26 347 13.3 36 6 RB Maurice Morris 26 230 8.8 16 1 RB Kevin Smith 22 179 8.1 28 3 RB Keiland Williams 8 62 7.8 12 0 TE Will Heller 6 42 7.0 12 0 WR Rashied Davis 4 63 15.8 22 0 RB Stefan Logan 1 19 19.0 19 0 Aaron Brown 1 9 9.0 9 0 Maurice Stovall 1 8 8.0 8 0 Jerome Harrison 1 3 3.0 3 0
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    As I said Pro a small list. You named the top 4 passing teams in the league. I fully expect the top passing teams in the league to have a number of players get rec's but 4 teams only represent 12.5% of the league. A vast majority don't have their 6th receiving option don't have a lot of receptions. Then when you looks at the difference between 15 and 20 rec's a year you are really talk 1 extra catch over 3 games. Do you really feel 1 extra catch over 3 games is going to make any kind of difference?

    If you are arguing that Brady needs to use he lower tier WR more often then I agree. They also need to use their RB's in the passing game more often too. I mean Woodhead gets 3 more catches, we have a #3 WR that Brady trust, and Ocho makes vet minimum and do you really think anyone is saying Ocho isn't productive enough as a #4 WR? The perception is though that coming in he was going to be the #2 outside threat WR and Branch would be the #3 WR. Ocho was most certainly paid the be the main outside the numbers WR. So people are looking at his numbers saying they weren't good enough and there weren't for what he was paid and what was expected but my original statement was that he was productive as a #4 WR.


     
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    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!! : As I said Pro a small list. You named the top 4 passing teams in the league. I fully expect the top passing teams in the league to have a number of players get rec's but 4 teams only represent 12.5% of the league. A vast majority don't have their 6th receiving option don't have a lot of receptions. Then when you looks at the difference between 15 and 20 rec's a year you are really talk 1 extra catch over 3 games. Do you really feel 1 extra catch over 3 games is going to make any kind of difference? If you are arguing that Brady needs to use he lower tier WR more often then I agree. They also need to use their RB's in the passing game more often too. I mean Woodhead gets 3 more catches, we have a #3 WR that Brady trust, and Ocho makes vet minimum and do you really think anyone is saying Ocho isn't productive enough as a #4 WR? The perception is though that coming in he was going to be the #2 outside threat WR and Branch would be the #3 WR. Ocho was most certainly paid the be the main outside the numbers WR. So people are looking at his numbers saying they weren't good enough and there weren't for what he was paid and what was expected but my original statement was that he was productive as a #4 WR.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]


    Eng,

    • The list may be small (though I haven't looked at all 32 teams so I'm not sure how small it really is)--but I think it makes sense to compare the Pats to other teams with elite passing games, even if that is a small group.  Teams that get into the playoffs have to be outstanding at one or more parts of their game.  The Pats right now are an outstanding passing team.  We're mediocre running and mediocre on defense.  If we want to preserve our strength in the passing game (and ideally improve it) we need to be comparing ourselves to top passing offenses, not middle of the road passing offenses.
    • Personally, I think we need some more diversity in our receiving corp and we'd get that diversity by having at least three productive targets among the wideouts (this is in addition to the two TEs and whatever we get from our RBs).  I think we depend far too much on three or four guys right now.  Most teams with good passing offenses have five or six or even seven or eight guys with a significant numbers of catches
    • Any single number of catches is arbitrary when you try to define what a significant number of catches is.  I picked 20 because it is a round number that's more than one catch per game on average.  I think you are looking for guys who are going to be targeted, on average, about two times a game or more.  Assuming a 65% completion rate, 32 targets (two a game on average) result in 20 receptions.  Nothing scientific, but it's a reasonable starting point.  
    • Ideally, what we want is to be able to challenge all areas of the field so defenses can't focus on defending just one area.  We are not good challenging the perimeter or the deep areas right now.  A big reason we need more production from our wideouts is to be able to challenge those areas. 
    • Ocho may be productive enough for a number 4 wideout, but he was the number 3 wideout in our offense and the number 6 receiver overall (including wideouts, TEs, and RBs).  I don't think 15 catches from the number 6 receiver is enough at all, especially if you're a team that relies on the passing game as heavily as we do.  We should be getting 20-25 catches from our number 5, 6, and even 7 receivers, I think.  Welker and Gronk have far too many catches in my opinion.  We shouldn't be relying so heavily on so few guys.  It makes us one-dimensional.
    • I don't think it's play calling that has caused Ocho and others (Woodhead, Green-Ellis, Edelman, etc.)  to be underutilized as receivers.  I think the receivers after Branch just haven't been all that good, either because they lack basic talent in the passing game or (as in Ocho's case) they haven't been fully able to learn the offense. 






     
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    Re: Oh No Dont Go Thay Way Again!!!

    This is all about how do they take a situation that is less than ideal and improve it? They can't take away the salary cap problem, but they can deal with it effectively, to minimize the problem going forward.

    If he's not willing to restructure his contract then the Pats take the salary cap hit and move on. Again, nothing has been lost that already isn't going to be lost.

    If Ocho does work out and a draft pick works out then great - you have a talented WR group. If Ocho works out and the draft pick doesn't then you have minimized your risk. If neither works out then you haven't lost anything else.

    Besides, you're not going to find many HOF WRs out there who don't mind being 3rd WR (really 5th WR) that also have 1 year in the Pats system.

    It's a VERY smart move to ask him to redo his contract - it's absolutely the right business move and something that a good GM should be trying to do.

     

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