Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

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    Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/10/31/patriots-coming-short-down/szbj76kvmMqj6blROrk7LN/story.html

    Offense has to step up things up.  I think this is the time of the year that we will see how far the receivers have progressed, if things are sinking in for the rookie/new receivers on the team.  IMO, McD has some improving to do too.

     
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    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    Once JM extracts his heads from his arrse and starts thinking the 3rd down play calls should improve....

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Once JM extracts his heads from his arrse and starts thinking the 3rd down play calls should improve....

    [/QUOTE]


    Well the problem, mostly, concerns what is happening prior to 3rd down, poor 0-line play and some suspect play calling.

    Just looking at the Cincy game:

    3/14=6 yrd pass   ??????

    3/2 =SACK

    3/7= incomplete pass

    3/7 = inc pass

    3/14=inc pass

    3/10- 4 yrd completion  ??????

    3/9 SACK

    3/5 = 3 yrd comp  ???????

    3/1= inc pass   ??????

    3/10 SACK

    Of 10 plays, 8 were 3rd and longs,   Third and longs difficult to convert unless you are the other team.  The D needs to pick it up on these, too!

    2, 3rd and shorts with a sack and a 1 yard inc,

    3, sacks on 3rd down

    3, 3rds and longs with short yardage completions,

    Every receiver including Bolden had at least one drop  and several negative yardage plays, makes for a hard day on 3rd down play

     

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Patsfansince1966's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Once JM extracts his heads from his arrse and starts thinking the 3rd down play calls should improve....

    [/QUOTE]


    Well the problem, mostly, concerns what is happening prior to 3rd down, poor 0-line play and some suspect play calling.

    Just looking at the Cincy game:

    3/14=6 yrd pass   ??????

    3/2 =SACK

    3/7= incomplete pass

    3/7 = inc pass

    3/14=inc pass

    3/10- 4 yrd completion  ??????

    3/9 SACK

    3/5 = 3 yrd comp  ???????

    3/1= inc pass   ??????

    3/10 SACK

    Of 10 plays, 8 were 3rd and longs,   Third and longs difficult to convert unless you are the other team.  The D needs to pick it up on these, too!

    2, 3rd and shorts with a sack and a 1 yard inc,

    3, sacks on 3rd down

    3, 3rds and longs with short yardage completions,

    Every receiver including Bolden had at least one drop  and several negative yardage plays, makes for a hard day on 3rd down play

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe everyone on the Pats has an "injured hand"?

    [/QUOTE]


    Yes, I think they all have injured hands

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrbungle. Show mrbungle's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    That's because we have no real 3rd down back option like Faulk or Woodhead now. I like Bolden but, he's not the answer there.

    Vereen may prove to be the one to take over that role. This hasn't been so much because Woodhead is gone although I'd prefer we kept him. This is a consequence of injuries. When Vereen comes back we'll see more 3rd down conversions. Bet on it. 

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That's because we have no real 3rd down back option like Faulk or Woodhead now. I like Bolden but, he's not the answer there.

    Vereen may prove to be the one to take over that role. This hasn't been so much because Woodhead is gone although I'd prefer we kept him. This is a consequence of injuries. When Vereen comes back we'll see more 3rd down conversions. Bet on it. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Yes, that too, but the excessive 3rd and longs and sacks on third are killers.

    Will be hard for Vereen to convert on a lot of those.  Clutch is great but consistency is better.

    No solution for the missing guy who led the league in 1st downs last year.???

    The entire O needs to step it up on all downs.

    Thank you BB

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheTinMan. Show TheTinMan's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    For me, it really comes down to the playcalling.  Too predictable.

    Pats had 12 3rd down situations in the game mentioned.  Regardless of yardage needed for the first, Pats threw on all 12 (as far as I'm concerned, the sacks count as pass plays--you don't get sacked just handing off the ball).

    From my perspective--and no, I'm not a coach, let alone THE coach, just my opinion--the important thing for the Pats to keep in mind is the pass\run ratio.  For me, it makes things much less predictable.

    Take a look at Pats record just since the 2010 season began (I haven't gone back any further):

    overall record (include games so far this year):  48-14

    regular season:  45-11

    playoffs: 3-3

    When they rush 30 times or more in a game (regardless of overall # of plays):

    overall record:  27-1
    regular season  25-1
    playoffs  2-0

    20 or fewer rush attempts in a game (regardless of overall # plays)
    overall record  2-6
    regular season  2-5
    playoff record  0-1

    13 - 0 record when rushing attempts => than pass attempts
    19 - 1 record when pass to rush ratio > 1:1 <= 1.50:1
    11 - 1 record when pass to rush ratio >1.50:1 <=1.75:1
    5 - 12 record when pass to rush ratio > 1.75:1

    Over the past 3 seasons in playoffs, the Pats have never had at least 30 rush attempts in any game they lost.

    They exceeded a pass\rush ratio of 1.75:1 in every game they lost in the playoffs since 2010.

    They were under 1.75:1 pass\rush ratio in every playoff game they won since 2010.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Uncle Rico. Show Uncle Rico's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That's because we have no real 3rd down back option like Faulk or Woodhead now. I like Bolden but, he's not the answer there.

    Vereen may prove to be the one to take over that role. This hasn't been so much because Woodhead is gone although I'd prefer we kept him. This is a consequence of injuries. When Vereen comes back we'll see more 3rd down conversions. Bet on it. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You make a solid point.  I think with Vereen back this will change.  But as right now it was clearly a mistake to let Danny Woodhead go.  This won't go down in history as one of Bill's better off seasons.  Matter of fact,it is probably his worst ever.  Handicap an offense lie he did, I think he is on the back of his career much like Tom Brady is.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    Brady has simply sucked.  NFL N showed that Brady forced throw to a triple covered Gronk from last week, and as the ball was thrown, a streaking Amendola was running well in front of a trailing Miami DB, with no one in front of him.

    Ugh.

    That's it in a nutshell. There's your 3rd down offensive problem. Brady. Decision making. Accuracy.

     




    Yes, ballbanger, All that ails the Pats is Brady and umm, the GM?coach that allows him to destroy the team.

    Difference between SOX and Pats

    Last to first, One GM brings in  FA's and coaching that provide stability, allowing the team to thrive.

    First to last, One GM blows up the top ranked offense and brings in FA's, rookies, guys that can't stay healthy and coaches that provide instability' causing said offense to sputter and die..

    Mystery solved!

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from xXR3S1NXx. Show xXR3S1NXx's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Brady has simply sucked.  NFL N showed that Brady forced throw to a triple covered Gronk from last week, and as the ball was thrown, a streaking Amendola was running well in front of a trailing Miami DB, with no one in front of him.

    Ugh.

    That's it in a nutshell. There's your 3rd down offensive problem. Brady. Decision making. Accuracy.

     




    Yes, ballbanger, All that ails the Pats is Brady and umm, the GM?coach that allows him to destroy the team.

    Difference between SOX and Pats

    Last to first, One GM brings in  FA's and coaching that provide stability, allowing the team to thrive.

    First to last, One GM blows up the top ranked offense and brings in FA's, rookies and coaches that provide instability' causing said offense to sputter and die..

    Mystery solved!

    [/QUOTE]

    As long as Brady does not throw INTs in the playoffs, with the D as good and as deep as it is, that's all that should matter.  Brady won 3 SBs with that formula, but the key is Brady being smart and thinking about the team like he used to do pre 2007.

    No real fan cares about stats and where a team "ranks" in the middle of a season. That didn't work too well with Brady spoiled like a baby, from 2007-2012, did it?

    No, it didn't.

    No QB has ever been so spoiled with 2 cracks at a SB, only to choke in both postseasons.

    No more spoiling Brady. Hopefully, this last attempt by BB to fix Brady once and for all, works.

    If Brady was so great, he wouldn't need to have HOF wepaonry all around him. He used to be great.  Not sure what happened.  Ego?  Arrogance?  All words are up for debate and in play now.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I see it as more of a stubborness from brady more than anything... The Gronk play with brady forcing it into triple converage is the perfect example.. He trusts gronk more than any of the other guys on offense, so much so that he's willing to force it to gronk in triple coverage. Brady shoul give the guys a chance to make a play if they are open regardless of how much he trusts them. You cant come to trust a player if you dont give them a chance.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrbungle. Show mrbungle's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Brady has simply sucked.  NFL N showed that Brady forced throw to a triple covered Gronk from last week, and as the ball was thrown, a streaking Amendola was running well in front of a trailing Miami DB, with no one in front of him.

    Ugh.

    That's it in a nutshell. There's your 3rd down offensive problem. Brady. Decision making. Accuracy.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Brady still has to work within the confines of McDaniels schemes. 

    I say they should simplify this offense. Perhaps the well known complexity of this offense is it's own undoing. You let veterans go and then give Brady all new receivers coming into a new system and things are bound to get messy. The reason he throws to Gronk so much now is that McDaniels figures Gronk knows the system better than anyone now. However, this pretty much throws the others under the bus. That Amendola was wide open and didn't get the throw was indicative of the mindset of JM. I'm not saying the Patriots need to dumb things down but, designing plays that give these new WR's confidence needs to be done. 

    Does Brady get to call plays at all? I admit that I don't know the details about this. I know on occasion he can but, if he doesn't, maybe he should. In fairness, Brady has not executed on passes he used to throw in his sleep. I still believe some nagging injury is at play. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and hear if BB asks JM sometimes "what on earth were you thinking??". I mean, we all do.

    But, and this has been brought up by a lot of guys like me, the running game needs to be established! OK, the passing game isn't vintage Brady now. However, we have 3 good, solid backs right now with Vereen coming back too. Blount may not be everyone's favorite but, he can punish DL's if he gets the carries. Ridley? Time to let this guy shine now. Yes, he may fumble again but, if he's still on the team and healthy, let him run! Bolden is an underrated back IMO. 

    This offense seems to be the same one that was used with Moss. That offense was designed to get Moss open and to utilize his strengths. Seems they've succumbed to that same mindset with regards to Gronk. I love Gronk. But, we can't turn to him for every play. Hey, I don't have all the answers but, this team is very frustrating to watch. Get Dobson, Thompkins, Boyce into the game. Brady needs to get them the ball too. Run more. Use Gronk as the threat that is always lurking underneath it all. I definitely think a healthy Vereen will address the 3rd down conversion nightmare that is this years Patriots team. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

     

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Brady has simply sucked.  NFL N showed that Brady forced throw to a triple covered Gronk from last week, and as the ball was thrown, a streaking Amendola was running well in front of a trailing Miami DB, with no one in front of him.

    Ugh.

    That's it in a nutshell. There's your 3rd down offensive problem. Brady. Decision making. Accuracy.

     

     




    Yes, ballbanger, All that ails the Pats is Brady and umm, the GM?coach that allows him to destroy the team.

     

    Difference between SOX and Pats

    Last to first, One GM brings in  FA's and coaching that provide stability, allowing the team to thrive.

    First to last, One GM blows up the top ranked offense and brings in FA's, rookies and coaches that provide instability' causing said offense to sputter and die..

    Mystery solved!



    As long as Brady does not throw INTs in the playoffs, with the D as good and as deep as it is, that's all that should matter.  Brady won 3 SBs with that formula, but the key is Brady being smart and thinking about the team like he used to do pre 2007.

    No real fan cares about stats and where a team "ranks" in the middle of a season. That didn't work too well with Brady spoiled like a baby, from 2007-2012, did it?

    No, it didn't.

    No QB has ever been so spoiled with 2 cracks at a SB, only to choke in both postseasons.

    No more spoiling Brady. Hopefully, this last attempt by BB to fix Brady once and for all, works.

    If Brady was so great, he wouldn't need to have HOF wepaonry all around him. He used to be great.  Not sure what happened.  Ego?  Arrogance?  All words are up for debate and in play now.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I can't imagine a Great QB needing HoF receivers, either.  Not like Montana had any or a stellar defense for that matter.  Right?  UMMMM.......WRONG

    Funny what rookies and guys that never played in the system and always injured players, will do to a QB.

    Unfortunately, we've never seen a HoF QB have to endure this before, so there's really nothing to compare it to.

    FIRST TO LAST IN A FLASH!

    Thanks BB


     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    Everyone calm down, it's no one in particular's fault. It's just injuries and offseason departures.

    Brady is used to looking for Welker, 3rd down back, Hernandez on 3rd downs. Welker left, Woodhead left and Aaron is in jail. BB decided that Amendola would replace Welker, Vareen had already taken a large chunk of Woodhead's snaps last year and BB decide to keep Vareen over Woodhead and the Pats were hopeful Sudds could pick up for Hern. 

    Vareen and Amendola both got injured week 1, Sudds got cut in week 3, teams target Edelman on third and force Brady to make the more difficult passes to Dobson and Kenbrell. The only plays that can work to outside WRs in 3rd down play are back shoulders and slants because the QB has to get rid of it quicker on third.

    Both guys struggle with the back shoulders and Kenbrell has a tough time fighting off jamming coverages which make throwing slants impossible and potential INTs likely, Dobson hasn't been catching the slant passes, but Brady seems to be trusting him more. Vareen will be back soon, Amendola will be more healthy after the BYE and Brady and Dobson should continue to sync up.

     

    They'll be better.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Uncle Rico's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That's because we have no real 3rd down back option like Faulk or Woodhead now. I like Bolden but, he's not the answer there.

    Vereen may prove to be the one to take over that role. This hasn't been so much because Woodhead is gone although I'd prefer we kept him. This is a consequence of injuries. When Vereen comes back we'll see more 3rd down conversions. Bet on it. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You make a solid point.  I think with Vereen back this will change.  But as right now it was clearly a mistake to let Danny Woodhead go.  This won't go down in history as one of Bill's better off seasons.  Matter of fact,it is probably his worst ever.  Handicap an offense lie he did, I think he is on the back of his career much like Tom Brady is.

    [/QUOTE]

    It was not a mistake to let Woodhead go, Bustchise.  Woodhead helped us lose games with Welkie as Brady would throw too much and then pretend Woodhead was a lead back. FAIL.

    FAIL

    Clear FAIL.

    Vereen is more talented than Woodhead, was groomed by Woodhead and you move on with the superior talent.

    Very simple, Bustchise. We're well aware your stupid team walked from Woodhead when they had busts like Joe McKnight in the house down in Jersey, but that is your problem.

    THanks, BB.  Thanks for everything.  Getting healthier at the Bye and another division crown with a playoff run sounds great to me.

    Enjoy another sub .500 season in NJ, loser.

    [/QUOTE]

    You applaud BB for getting rid of Woodhead and Welker, but say nothing about him bringing them in the first place. Dumb, even for dumbkoff.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Brady has simply sucked.  NFL N showed that Brady forced throw to a triple covered Gronk from last week,

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Just goes to show how little confidence Brady has in the receivers BB has sadlled him with Megatool. Your every word is your undoing.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Uncle Rico's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mrbungle's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    That's because we have no real 3rd down back option like Faulk or Woodhead now. I like Bolden but, he's not the answer there.

    Vereen may prove to be the one to take over that role. This hasn't been so much because Woodhead is gone although I'd prefer we kept him. This is a consequence of injuries. When Vereen comes back we'll see more 3rd down conversions. Bet on it. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You make a solid point.  I think with Vereen back this will change.  But as right now it was clearly a mistake to let Danny Woodhead go.  This won't go down in history as one of Bill's better off seasons.  Matter of fact,it is probably his worst ever.  Handicap an offense lie he did, I think he is on the back of his career much like Tom Brady is.

    [/QUOTE]

    It was not a mistake to let Woodhead go, Bustchise.  Woodhead helped us lose games with Welkie as Brady would throw too much and then pretend Woodhead was a lead back. FAIL.

    FAIL

    Clear FAIL.

    Vereen is more talented than Woodhead, was groomed by Woodhead and you move on with the superior talent.

    Very simple, Bustchise. We're well aware your stupid team walked from Woodhead when they had busts like Joe McKnight in the house down in Jersey, but that is your problem.

    THanks, BB.  Thanks for everything.  Getting healthier at the Bye and another division crown with a playoff run sounds great to me.

    Enjoy another sub .500 season in NJ, loser.

    [/QUOTE]

    You applaud BB for getting rid of Woodhead and Welker, but say nothing about him bringing them in the first place. Dumb, even for dumbkoff.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think each move was great. I just don't think either should be targeted or used as much as Brady preferred to use them in his preferred shotgun spread base.

    Get it, Diapers?

    Each was relied on and used too much and they're finesse players. FAIL

    Brady failed with what he preferred to use.   Under this supposed "stinky" talent Bedard claims BB has here is something very special and you'll see it grow and explode by the end of the year.

    You'll see. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Stinky is a nice word.  Perrillo called them just plain CRAP!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrbungle. Show mrbungle's posts

    Re: Patriots Plagued By 3rd Down Failures

     

    [QUOTE]


    Brady still has to work within the confines of McDaniels schemes. 

    I say they should simplify this offense. Perhaps the well known complexity of this offense is it's own undoing. You let veterans go and then give Brady all new receivers coming into a new system and things are bound to get messy. The reason he throws to Gronk so much now is that McDaniels figures Gronk knows the system better than anyone now. However, this pretty much throws the others under the bus. That Amendola was wide open and didn't get the throw was indicative of the mindset of JM. I'm not saying the Patriots need to dumb things down but, designing plays that give these new WR's confidence needs to be done. 

    Does Brady get to call plays at all? I admit that I don't know the details about this. I know on occasion he can but, if he doesn't, maybe he should. In fairness, Brady has not executed on passes he used to throw in his sleep. I still believe some nagging injury is at play. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and hear if BB asks JM sometimes "what on earth were you thinking??". I mean, we all do.

    But, and this has been brought up by a lot of guys like me, the running game needs to be established! OK, the passing game isn't vintage Brady now. However, we have 3 good, solid backs right now with Vereen coming back too. Blount may not be everyone's favorite but, he can punish DL's if he gets the carries. Ridley? Time to let this guy shine now. Yes, he may fumble again but, if he's still on the team and healthy, let him run! Bolden is an underrated back IMO. 

    This offense seems to be the same one that was used with Moss. That offense was designed to get Moss open and to utilize his strengths. Seems they've succumbed to that same mindset with regards to Gronk. I love Gronk. But, we can't turn to him for every play. Hey, I don't have all the answers but, this team is very frustrating to watch. Get Dobson, Thompkins, Boyce into the game. Brady needs to get them the ball too. Run more. Use Gronk as the threat that is always lurking underneath it all. I definitely think a healthy Vereen will address the 3rd down conversion nightmare that is this years Patriots team. 

    [/QUOTE]


     

    They kind of did this today. 

    No charge coach Belichick!

     

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