Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate
posted at 2/2/2013 1:10 AM EST
In response to dapats1281's comment:
In response to 42AND46's comment:
In response to dapats1281's comment:
If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.
In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.
First, with Brady and Peyton:
Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.
Mannings last 4 one and done's:
Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.
Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great
Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.
Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.
Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.
The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.
As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.
Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning
Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli
I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.
Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.
all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either
I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.
These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that
i dont fully buy that goodell era/inflated numbers thing to a great extent-to be honest this idea that D's were so tough and the smashed the QB around and hit, etc...back when and werre allowed so much more freedom etc than today is really overstated and very much a soundbyte it wasn;t the wild west peopleand old timers like to carp about-as a collector of old games on dvd regular season and post season-i just watched the 1946 NFLCG last week and a regular season Dallas-Oakland game from 1974 last night i can tell you the idea of how much rougher and tougher the game was and all the big hitting and how they let guys mug the receivers and how they went after the QB blah blah blah is a helluva lot more myth than reality-a lot-there was a PI in the 1974 game on Jack Tatum of the raiders that looked just like one of today's-just reached out and did a tuck and grab and flag comes out
and while the rules clearly favor the Offense today by far-far too much i agree-it's also true that the schemes and types of D's QBs face the last 10+ years are a lot more complex and numerous than back when
Johnny U once admitted back a few years that when he played he might see 3-4 different D's a game and that QB's now might see that in one quarter, maybe less
the point is while i dont compare eras as much as possible and that things evolve it all seems to even out