Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    As for your choke comment - All this means is that the pats since 01 have choked 2 times less than the colts.  And in the more relevant last 5 years, the colts have choked one time less than the pats... 
    Posted by underdoggg

     
         Whatever you say, Dog(gg)...LOL!!!
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning :        Whatever you say, Dog(gg)...LOL!!!
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Thanks for the support!!!  LOL!!!
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : He shouldn't be. Same offensive coordinator for since his rookie year, dome, overall a weak division with an expansion team in it, Polian on the rules committee shaping rules for him. Huge list of advantages for Manning in this regard. But then, you look at Gomer outdoors or in the playoffs and this is where we start to see the issues and just how much better Brady has been in comparison. Manning is Warren Moon with a ring.
    Posted by russgriswold


    Manning has been better than brady over the last 5 years and has a ring to show for it.  The only reason brady won was because of his kicker and his defense.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : Thanks for the support!!!  LOL!!!
    Posted by underdoggg


         You think that was support?? What's in that blue koolaid that you've been drinking all these years? LOL!!!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : Manning has been better than brady over the last 5 years and has a ring to show for it.  The only reason brady won was because of his kicker and his defense.
    Posted by underdoggg


         Silly posts like the one above are why the majority of posters here see you as a troll, and don't take you seriously.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    Tex - we all have him on ignore.  It's sad that an alleged Colts fan posts more than anyone else on a Pats forum.  He must secretly love the Pats!
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning :      Silly posts like the one above are why the majority of posters here see you as a troll, and don't take you seriously.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Are you saying that Manning has not been better than Brady over the last 5 years?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsRfineIn09. Show PatsRfineIn09's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    Asking a manning apologist to admit PM was the main reason the Colts lost the superbowl(pick 6) is like asking BR to take your hot daughter out on a date without raping her.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : Are you saying that Manning has not been better than Brady over the last 5 years?
    Posted by underdoggg


         Yes. Brady perhaps was not better...but certainly in the same class. Brady was far better in 2007, when he broke Peyton's TD pass record. Of course, he missed all of 2008. In 2006, Brady was the better QB. The guy nearly led the Pats to another title, despite having WRs Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell as his top targets. Had Peyton had such "B"  list WRs to throw to, he would have broken his own record for most excuses made during a season. 
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

         Here are some interesting comment from Dwight Freeney, prior to Indy's AFC title game win over the Jets. Not surprisingly, Freeney feels that the Colts' "D' is vastly underrated: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/article/2010-01-21/sporting-news-conversation-dwight-freeney

     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning :      Yes. Brady perhaps was not better...but certainly in the same class. Brady was far better in 2007, when he broke Peyton's TD pass record. Of course, he missed all of 2008. In 2006, Brady was the better QB. The guy nearly led the Pats to another title, despite having WRs Jabar Gaffney and Reche Caldwell as his top targets. Had Peyton had such "B"  list WRs to throw to, he would have broken his own record for most excuses made during a season. 
    Posted by TexasPat3


    If nothing else, you know how to rationalize things.  In 06 Manning won the SB - 07 I'll give to Brady for the records and MVP - 08 sure Brady was out but Manning also had 2 knee surgeries (not serious enough to keep him out but serious enough to affect him).  What did he do - won the MVP.  2009, another MVP and AFC championship.  Admit it Tex - last 4 years has Manning taking the cake!

    As for B list wideouts - How about Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon?  What did Manning do?  MVP and AFC Champ.  No doubt Manning is better.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsRfineIn09. Show PatsRfineIn09's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    Lets compare SB losses for both Brady and Manning.

    When the game was on the line, Brady threw a TD pass to Moss late in the 4th quarter to put the Patriots ahead by 4, no one ever mentions Brady played with a high ankle sprain, it was obvious to see that this affected his accurracy greatly that game, he was off all game but never threw an INT, he had no time to throw from the fierce giants pass rush and our porous OL.

    When the game was on the line for Manning, he threw a TD pass to Tracy Porter, wrong team, and the rest is history. Manning was 100 percent healthy for the game.

    Not even close as to who the better big game QB is. Brady />Manning



     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
     Frankly, their making it to the superbowl was miraculous. 
    Posted by underdoggg


    So according to you they are the best team in the AFC yet their getting to the Super Bowl last year is miraculous? Which is it?
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : So according to you they are the best team in the AFC yet their getting to the Super Bowl last year is miraculous? Which is it?
    Posted by mikzor


    given what they were projected to be at the start of the season as compared to the pats.  Yes.  They proved themselves to be the best, not necessarily in talent, but in toughness and moxie.  Some pundits did not even have them in the playoffs.  Few had them winning the division.  by contrast the pats were odds on favorites to represent the AFC. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    The system and philosophy is Tony Dungy's not Polians, he made it popular with the Vikings in the 90's which led to his being hired by the Colts to his first head coaching job.  John Randle and Henry Thomas were the spark that made them go, two undersized defensive tackles that could shoot gaps with a blitz happy linebacking corp.  The Colts best defense not suprisingly was when they had their best D tackles.

    I don't know when Tex jumped the shark and became a Colt's fan but in the "Patrick Chung" thread he decries that the PAT's drafting process needs to be blown up and lists all BB's misses in the draft over the past few drafts...  If I combed over the Colt's draft board I could find quite a few players who didn't make the team. 

    Polian doesn't hit on all his players, nobody does, the draft is an imperfect process that can't possibly read into the heart of a man and determine his motivation. What can't be argued with is results, 10-6 in a rebuilding year isn't bad...  remember the 80's... anybody?

    The PAT's used to beat the Colts by power running all over them, an undersized defense is easily beat on... not exactly dominant.  Let's not look at the last couple seasons when our franchise QB was hurt and say we should have done better, if PayAton was hurt the Colt's would win 4 games... maybe.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from HOTBLITZ. Show HOTBLITZ's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    doggg, Manning=ginormous choke
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    Their D is a joke. There pass rush leads to winning theory is exactly why they dont win when it counts. They dont know how to stop the run because all their players are built to rush the passer. Tony D and his Tampa Two defense *SUCK balls. I have never liked this style of play and i never will. I live and breath defense its all i ever wanted to play i had no interest at all as a kid in the offense so when i say watching the Colts play defense makes me want to *puke please know that I have seen many a bad defense and none make me sick as much as that puss puss style of D they play in Indy.
    Posted by MVPKilla2009


    Allow me to detail what killa is saying in otherwords:

    Some uncreative imbec!le took a standard 4-3 Defense, mainly as some vague counter D to the West Coast Offense, AND that genius says, "O.k., We'll have the four lineman 1-gap rushing the ball at the snap like speed demons, and the rest of our guys will play the most uncreative zone containment defense with each (including the CBs, In charge of a specific bubble area of the field, like so:
       
        S                S
          LB   LB   LB
    CB                    CB

    So he goes, "We'll give 'em the 100 yard run games, but who cares, We'll stop the pass based on speed rushing the passer, and by quick reacting guys everywhere else, based again-on speed, But we'll make up for the size and massive unoriginality factor, by "gang-tackling.  I mean, we'll never be trully dominant as a Defense, Unless by some freak luck of nature, we get a HOF QB and the other team then has to be playing catch-up real quick and for most of the game, BUT man it's already 4:50 pm Friday, and dang-it, I said I'd have a Defense done before quittin' time, and I WILL!" 

    THEN, lo and behold upon dubbing this a Cover 2, or 3, or who cares Defense, ANOTHER even more uncreative mor#n than the first guy, says to himself, "Man this D is gettin' torn up by the more accurate NFL QBs, even with our speed rushing D-Lineman, and well- I heard someone in the stands say that I should 'Be looking for the soft spots in this defense that these QBs have been using as target practice areas;'  So alright, we got 1 very obvious one behind the MLB and in between the two Safeties in that mid- deep-mid portion of the field.  And I guess we got 2 other ones behind the CBs and in that coverage bubble before where the Safety on each side takes over...  And krikees!  It's 4:55pm on Friday and I said that I'd fix this pathetically unoriginal piece of garbage D, BEFORE quittin' time...  So look, we'll just have that MLB drop into a deeper zone than before, far downfield into the secondary, and now Both Safeties have a little less space to worry about, So they can worry a little more with inching forward to help the 2 soft spots behind the CBs and to the side of the OLBs and in front of them, the Safeties...  OMG, 4:58 pm...boy was that a tough call, Hey Fred the Janitor!: Can you give my timecard a punch, seein' as you're gonna be here til 7 p.m. anyways... Da Names 'TONY DUNGY' pal...uh-oh, hold on a sec, I forgot to name this unbelievable work of genius defense that I just created/fixed, Well-seein' as how I'm on Tampa, and the one it's based off of was a 2 or 3, I'm just goin' with Tampa 2, and MAN! 5:01?  I better be gettin' some serious OT for this work...". 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    I think the stats show that the Colts D has been very good this decade.  An average QB could get a winning record with them.  Manning hasn't put up mega numbers since 2004.  Their D played well in all their playoff losses since 2002 - it was Manning who failed to put up any points (or else put up points for the opposition).  Don't let Sony, Sprint and Nestle convince you that Manning's D is the only thing holding him back from 5 trophies.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    The Colts defense and offense complement each other.  Basically the Colts' game plan is to score a lot of points on offense.  This forces their opponents to try to match the Colts' scoring, which means their opponents are forced to pass a lot.  So the Colts defense is designed to disrupt their opponent's passing game.  Teams can run against the Colts, but for the most part the Colts don't care because most teams won't be able to outscore the Colts' high-powered offense by running a lot. When the Colts lose it's usually because their opponent succeeds in disrupting the timing of the Colts offense and therefore reduces the Colts' ability to score.   If the game isn't a shoot out, the Colts defense becomes less effective, because it is vulnerable to both the run and occasional big pass plays.  So teams can score against it, especially if they are running a balanced offense that keeps the Colts' defense from just focusing on the pass. 

     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : If nothing else, you know how to rationalize things.  In 06 Manning won the SB - 07 I'll give to Brady for the records and MVP - 08 sure Brady was out but Manning also had 2 knee surgeries (not serious enough to keep him out but serious enough to affect him).  What did he do - won the MVP.  2009, another MVP and AFC championship.  Admit it Tex - last 4 years has Manning taking the cake! As for B list wideouts - How about Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon?  What did Manning do?  MVP and AFC Champ.  No doubt Manning is better.
    Posted by underdoggg


         Talk about rationalizing...LOL!!! In 2006, the Patriots had the SB stolen from them by the men in striped shirts...who gratuitously awarded it to Manning. In 2007, Brady was hands-down the better QB. In 2008, Manning had a minor knee procedure...and was gift-wrapped the MVP by his loyalists in the media. But, he showed his true colors when he choked against the 8-8 Chargers in the play-offs. 

         As for Manning doing it with "B" list WRs last year, you conveniently forget to mention that he also had pro-bowl WR Reggie Wayne, and a pro-bowl TE in Dallas Clark. All Brady had in 2006 was Gaffney, Caldwell, and the under achieving Ben Watson.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    If the game isn't a shoot out, the Colts defense becomes less effective, because it is vulnerable to both the run and occasional big pass plays.  So teams can score against it, especially if they are running a balanced offense that keeps the Colts' defense from just focusing on the pass. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    See I don't agree with this.  The Colts have won plenty of blow outs this decade, but they've also won plenty of close games where their D held the opposition to under 20 or the low 20s. 

    Look at their games this decade ...

    http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule?team=IND&season=2009&seasonType=REG

    very rarely does an opponent put up big points against them, regardless of what their offense is doing.

    Last year 10 opponents scored 17 or less against them.  An average QB could have gotten to the playoffs with that D.


     
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    Re: Polian

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    The Colts have won plenty of blow outs this decade, but they've also won plenty of close games where their D held the opposition to under 20 or the low 20s.  
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    True enough, but in a lot of those games, the Colts got out to a big lead (around 20 pts) in the first half. The second half the other team was forced to throw a lot and the Colts D is designed to disrupt the passing game.  They want to get a big lead then force the other team to pass.  There are exceptions to every rule of course, but I think you'll also find that in a lot of the lower-scoring close games where the Colts didn't jump out to a big lead in the first half, the opposing team had a fairly anemic offense and was helped by Indy turnovers (Ravens) or was able to control the ball on offense for long stretches (Miami) or simply got lucky because the Colts failed to score despite moving the ball well (San Fran).  

    I'm not being critical of the Colts, by the way.  With Manning as your QB, I think their strategy is very smart.  And I think it makes a lot of sense to have a D that emphasizes being disruptive in the passing game, because you know your opponents are going to be forced to pass a lot just because your own offense is so good.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

         Some serious free agency concerns loom for the Colts in 2011: http://www.indystar.com/article/20100518/SPORTS03/5180313/1058/SPORTS03/Bevy-of-Colts-free-agents-loom
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    The system and philosophy is Tony Dungy's not Polians , he made it popular with the Vikings in the 90's which led to his being hired by the Colts to his first head coaching job.  John Randle and Henry Thomas were the spark that made them go, two undersized defensive tackles that could shoot gaps with a blitz happy linebacking corp.  The Colts best defense not suprisingly was when they had their best D tackles. I don't know when Tex jumped the shark and became a Colt's fan but in the "Patrick Chung" thread he decries that the PAT's drafting process needs to be blown up and lists all BB's misses in the draft over the past few drafts...  If I combed over the Colt's draft board I could find quite a few players who didn't make the team.  Polian doesn't hit on all his players, nobody does, the draft is an imperfect process that can't possibly read into the heart of a man and determine his motivation. What can't be argued with is results, 10-6 in a rebuilding year isn't bad...  remember the 80's... anybody? The PAT's used to beat the Colts by power running all over them, an undersized defense is easily beat on... not exactly dominant.  Let's not look at the last couple seasons when our franchise QB was hurt and say we should have done better, if PayAton was hurt the Colt's would win 4 games... maybe.
    Posted by wozzy


    wozzy - couple of thoughts:

    I think Polian has said a good draft is hitting on 60% of your picks.  A great draft is hitting on 65%.  Now I don't know what his criteria is for that and my numbers may be off, but does have some measurability factor to determining how well he has done and other teams have done.  But you are right, the draft (and free agency) are dice rolls.  

    Thank you for identifying the value that Manning is for the colts.  The colts would be mediocre without him.  It is why he wins MVP's.
     
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    Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning

    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning:
    In Response to Re: Polian "D" Formula: Rushing the Passer = Winning : wozzy - couple of thoughts: I think Polian has said a good draft is hitting on 60% of your picks.  A great draft is hitting on 65%.  Now I don't know what his criteria is for that and my numbers may be off, but does have some measurability factor to determining how well he has done and other teams have done.  But you are right, the draft (and free agency) are dice rolls.   Thank you for identifying the value that Manning is for the colts.  The colts would be mediocre without him.  It is why he wins MVP's.
    Posted by underdoggg


    Underdoggg,

    Polian is a decent personel and draft guy, to field a solid contender consistantly in Indy is no easy thing.  To have Manning on your team makes things much easier.  I believe this is why Dungy was hired, he proved that he could make something out of nothing on another smaller market team in Minny and was defense minded.

    The Colts spend the majority of their cap dollars on offense so a mind like Dungys was needed to mold young defensive players.  I always thought this was a weakness of Polians as well, great defense wins championships, a great offense wins regular season games... spend some money on defense already.   
     

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