Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from manowar333. Show manowar333's posts

    Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    Answer:  an elephant...

    I know I'm gonna get killed here, but I'm just too frustrated not to throw it out there again.

    First off, I'm not exonerating the offense.  I think poor QB play and choices, poor personnel decisions and questionable playcalling have factored greatly into losses for a few seasons now and certainly this season.  And yes, I do realize they are/were the number 1 offense in the league rolling into last week, but sometimes you can't look at the big picture.  Sometimes the glaring flaws get covered up by the end result.  When the team scores 35, no one wants to look back at the game and discuss Brady overthrowing or underthrowing 4 or 5 critical plays and that's becoming more and more common.  And apparently, no one is seeing the fact that late in games when we're trying to come back after a catastrophic defensive (and/or offensive) letdown, the offensive line has a hard time handling even a 4 man pass rush if it's dialed up aggressively with heat on the outside and a stunt up the middle.

    My biggest issue however, is with the defense and more specifically, Belichick.  At what point does Belichick have to start accepting some REAL accountability for this putrid defense? In fact, how about some accountability for the entire team?   I'm not talking about the mundane press conference response where he says "we have to play better, we have to coach better, it's as simple as that... blah, blah, blah." He's the one that drafts the players on the field. He's the one that hires the coaching staff... he makes the personnel decisions. He signs off on the gameplan... If you want to play that "bend but don't break" style of defense, fine... but you kinda need corners and safeties that don't allow receivers to get 10 yards past them in coverage.  The whole freaking point of the bend but don't break defense is to keep everything IN FRONT of you!   Bend but don't break is bent an broken...   In any event, the buck stops with him on everything pertaining to the organization aside from ownership concerns. So at what point does he become accountable?

    Everyone from fanboys to the media love to throw about buzz words, such as "defensive genius" or "guru." I can assure you, he's neither. If he were, he'd have a defense that people fear, rather than laugh at. Yes, I said LAUGH AT! Nothing worse than Russell Wilson knifing you up in the second half for a comeback victory...  No one fears this defense anymore.   I've been a Patriots fan for many, many years and suffered through the bad days and enjoyed the good, but the conclusion that I've come to is that there seems to be an elephant in the corner of the room that no one wants to address when it comes to Belichick... The fact that all of his titles were won playing with house money.

    As a defensive coordinator for the Giants in the '80's, he was coaching the likes of L.T., Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson and Leonard Marshall, just to name a few. Pretty hard not to be successful with that bunch. But guess what... he didn't draft any of those players. Another Bill, last name Parcells did. So, when we fast forward a decade to when he takes over the Patriots, he wins early and often on his way to 3 titles in 4 years, and everyone crowns him as a defensive genius. Once again, he's riding on the coat tails of that "other" Bill, last name Parcells.  Belichick won 3 titles in New England with the likes of Tedy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Willie Mac, Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law... ALL PARCELLS' GUYS! Then throw Romeo Crennel and Charlie Weiss into the mix and you have two MORE Parcells guys! What happens after all those guys are long gone? The "guru" is exposed for the fraud he is.

    Are you seriously telling me that a defensive "genius" can't come up with some sort of plan to keep a rookie qb from looking like Joe Montana?  Really???   This has slowly been happening for the last few seasons, but now it's just a joke.  Last season, Dan Orlovsky went 30 of 37 for 353 and 2 TDs and the Colts gave us all we wanted... Dan "no-longer-in the-league" Orlovsky...   and now, RUSSELL FREAKING WILSON?

    We've been seeing other defenses rebuilt with quick turnarounds over the past two or three season, while the Patriots defense is floundering.  Why?  How is it that other teams are fielding solid defenses while ours is the laughing stock of the league?  Please don't say it's where we draft.  We've traded down or out of the first round quite a few times over the years, when we could have picked up a stud player, instead opting for "value" or "future picks"...   It doens't matter how many picks you stockpile for the future if you're never going to use them, or use them on guys like Darius Butler and Pat Chung.  And honestly, who knows?  Maybe those guys (Butler and Chung) are/were actually good picks, but if they were, then the "genius" has done a pizz poor job in hiring assistant coaches to coach them up and teach them.  There may actually be something to that, considering so many of our high DB selections seem to merit the place they were drafted, only to regress after the first season, then continue to spiral downward. 

    Some will say, "relax, we got to the superbowl last year."... Yeah, but here's why.  In the playoffs, opposing teams seem to get conservative against us.  They don't want to make a big mistake in a playoff game.  If you get too conservative against Brady, he will beat you.  The proof is in the 2007 season. Late in the season, the Eagles, Ravens and Giants figured out the formula for slowing down the undefeated offensive juggernaut.  They pressured Brady to the extreme and we won all 3 of those games by a mere 3 points.  The formula was out, but in the playoffs, Jacksonville and San Diego were too conservative to even try.  But then we meet up with the Giants again in the Superbowl and they didn't really even blitz that much... they just brought a lot of 4 man pressure with stunts in the gaps.  And once again last year, the Giant's just overmatched and outcoached us.  They were not afraid of us.  Some will say, yeah, but the offense choked...  perhaps, but we led late in the game... the offense did it's job.  The D couldn't get off the field.

    The bottom line is that the buck stops with Belichick. Whether it's lack of personnel, or poor coaching (or both), there's an inherent problem with technique and personnel on this squad on both sides of the ball. He apparently has the guys that he wants, since he's the guy drafting them... so, either he's not the coach everyone thinks he is, or, he's not the personnel evaluator that HE thinks he is. If he is indeed a "genius" then why are guys like Chung and Arrington even on the field. They are clearly liabilities. Not only can Chung not cover, but he can't even lay a big hit anymore because he's always so out of position that he can't get to the play until it's well over...  and even then, it's only when he's not injured.

    I'm not saying I want Belichick's head on a platter.  I'm just tired of all the "genius" or "guru" stuff flying around.  People want to know why the Patriots are not playing well... why they can't win the big one?  Facts are facts, and the fact is that he hasn't won a title, either as a coordinator or as a head coach without the Parcells drafted players and assistants around him.  His claim to fame is drafting Tom Brady and having the sense to put him in when Bledsoe went down.  Now we're seeing Brady in decline.  He's just not clutch anymore... hasn't been since '07.  He's now forcing balls, making bad decisions, jawing to other players "see me after the game"...  Uhhh... you might want to break yourself there Tom, because this defense certainly isn't going to close for you or back you up.  I cringe everytime the opposition drops back to pass... even on 4th and 15...  and certainly no one wants to see Gostkowski come in with the game on the line. We've learned our lesson there...  So, Tom, maybe ease up on the "see me after the game stuff"...

    So, go ahead, call me a troll.  It's just a word made up by internet bullies who want to slam those who don't agree with or won't conform to the status quo.  So, I'm a troll, but at least the elephant in the corner has been addressed.

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    "Look, I'll cover the guy down the sideline, you cover the guy underneath, and let's just hope no one goes down the middle."

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    The reason people who post things like this are called trolls by a lot of people is because they completely overreach in their criticisms.  Consider the common argument against BB that is reiterated in the OP that he only won because of good players.


    NO $HIT.  There is no coach in NFL history that won with a roster full of JAGs.  Jesus christ look at who we lost to in the SB last year.  Eli is a dam good QB.  Nicks and Cruz are two of the best receivers in the league.  JPP, Osi, Tuck and the rest of the guys in the front 4 are one of the most talented groups in the NFL.  Look at all the other teams that won multiple SBs in a short span.  Does anyone think Noll's Steelers, Walsh's 49ers or Shanahan's Broncos were short on talent?  The fact is if we win even one of those SBs against the Giants (and we easily could have if things went slightly differently given how close both games were) no one is having this conversation.


    Belichick isn't perfect, but he's pretty dam good so we have to take the good with the bad.  It's fair to criticize, but all of these criticisms tend to devolve into these ridiculous assertions that somehow our previous success isn't legitimate in some way or another because our previous players were too talented (or something along those lines) and that because we haven't won the past 2 SBs we were in that it's proof that BB is ruining the team.


    Spare me.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from WeDerrWEBACK. Show WeDerrWEBACK's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    I have been asking this question for the past few years.  How can Mumbles McGhee be a defensive guru while putting out this garbage of a defense the past few years.  The responses I have gotten are, he is rebuilding on the fly, the offense(namely Brady) has hurt the defense and his defense is working as intended(the bend but dont break philosophy).  Honestly, with all the draft picks and being in such great cap shape(I have heard that BB invented the model that all great teams in the league use in working the cap) he should be able to put a defense out there that can stand on its own. 

     

    Granted, you guys did go to the SB but I think that had a lot more to do with Tommy Terrific than little bill.  My $0.02.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from manowar333. Show manowar333's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Belichick isn't perfect, but he's pretty dam good so we have to take the good with the bad.  It's fair to criticize, but all of these criticisms tend to devolve into these ridiculous assertions that somehow our previous success isn't legitimate in some way or another because our previous players were too talented (or something along those lines) and that because we haven't won the past 2 SBs we were in that it's proof that BB is ruining the team.


    Spare me.

    [/QUOTE]

    Uhh... actually it IS proof... You're actually making my point for me!  Thanks... You JUST mentioned Osi, JPP, Tuck, Cruz, Nicks... If Tom Coughlin can get them and coach them why can't BB.   It's not like the Giants have been drafting in the top 10 for the past decade. I'M NOT SAYING PAST SUCCESS WASN'T LEGITIMATE. I'm saying Belichick WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE for attaining the personnel he won with. Bruschi was the Brady of the defense. Ty Law used to own opposing qbs in man coverage. If it weren't for Law owning Peyton Manning for so many years, Willie Macs pass rushing abilities, Bruschi's field leadership and Ted Johnson stonewalling the run, Peyton Manning would have three rings and Tom would only have one.

    I'm not overreaching in my criticism.  The facts are presented right there.  And if you want to throw the greatness of the Giants around, Belichick passed on Osi 3 times in the '03 draft.  He passed on Justin Tuck in the '05 draft.  Heck, since you mentioned Nicks, they traded out of the first round twice before Nicks was taken, so they could've had him too and Cruz wasn't even drafted.  So how does Tom Coughlin see the talent and BB not?  In '09 they trade down twice and end up with Darius Butler and Ron Brace and Pat Chung because they didn't think Clay Matthews was good enough.  That's genius for you.

    And I know next you'll throw out the ol' "hindsight is 20/20"... you're right, it is...  but there are plenty of other teams drafting right down at the bottom where we typically do that still manage to field good to stellar defenses.  So, my question is why aren't we doing it if you're boy is such a great coach?  Heck, at this point, I'd be THRILLED with even an average defense.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from WeDerrWEBACK. Show WeDerrWEBACK's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    Manowar, you need to speak with Crusty.  BB is the bestest GM EVAHHHH!!!!  you must be a troll...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from manowar333. Show manowar333's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    In response to dustcover's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "Look, I'll cover the guy down the sideline, you cover the guy underneath, and let's just hope no one goes down the middle."

    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks!  LMFAO...   I needed that right about now.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    Pete Carroll has the Seahawks playing great defense.  Maybe the Patriots should get him.  Or maybe they should get one of the Ryan brothers.  They are both defensive geniuses.  Or what about Wade Phillips?  He had that Texas defense playing extremely well, at least until last week.  It's time the Patriots got rid of a head coach who only gets his team to the Super Bowl an average of every other year and hire one of the true defensive gurus in the NFL.  I am sure any one of them would continue his great track record of getting his team to the Super Bowl and winning it.  

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    I don't think BB is ruining the team, but he has to take responsibility for the team coming up short especially in big games and critical situations. The fact is that this team used to be amazing at winning close games and they are no longer are. For the most part, they either blow you out or lose a close one...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    In response to jri37's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to newenglanderinexile's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Pete Carroll has the Seahawks playing great defense.  Maybe the Patriots should get him.  Or maybe they should get one of the Ryan brothers.  They are both defensive geniuses.  Or what about Wade Phillips?  He had that Texas defense playing extremely well, at least until last week.  It's time the Patriots got rid of a head coach who only gets his team to the Super Bowl an average of every other year and hire one of the true defensive gurus in the NFL.  I am sure any one of them would continue his great track record of getting his team to the Super Bowl and winning it.  

    [/QUOTE]


     

    I don't totally disagree with the premise of the thread but how many SB's have Wade Philips, pete Carroll and the Ryan brothers been to?

    I am not 100% positive but i believe Rob Ryan is the only one and he went as part of BB staff.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    That is the point.  It was meant to be sarcastic.  Football, Brian Billick said recently (maybe quoting someone else) is not a game of perfection.  Too many fans around here have absolutely impossible expectations.  The Patriots have had one of the greatest runs in the history of the NFL over the last dozen years.  They have been in five Super Bowls in eleven years.  They have a winning record every one of those years, have been in the playoffs nearly every one of those years.  This is as much as can be humanly expected.  What other coach and what other team has come close to matching the Patriots' record under Bill Belichick?  You could say the Giants and the Steelers have done so, but who else?  No one is perfect, and I would not claim Bill Belichick is perfect.  I am sure he has made a million mistakes, and he would probably say the same thing.  But who is better?  Who would his critics rather have?  I named four people who are thougt to be better defensive minds than Bellichick.  But none of them have come close to matching his success in the NFL.  People imagine there is some coach or some player or some team out there that can be perfect.  This is never going to happen.  The Patriots have close to a .750 winning percentage under Bill Belichick.  Do people realize how hard that is to accomplish?  Maybe he can't draft a good secondary, and maybe he makes some regrettable decisions on the field, but his teams win three out of every four games they play.         

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from manowar333. Show manowar333's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    Apparently everyone missed the part where I said I don't want Belichicks head on a platter.  I'm not saying to get a new head coach and most certainly made NO mention Wade, Pete or the Ryans, but I AM saying we need a REAL defensive coordinator brought in from the outside, not a BB puppet hired from within.  Unfortunately, this won't happen because Bill won't come down from his egocentric throne and bring in a fresh defensive mind because he still believes in the "bent and broken" defense... err, sorry, "bend but don't break"... 

     

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    In a nutshell, and manowar I see where you may be coming from depending on how long you have been a Pats fan, is the expectations of so many fans here since the SB years of 2001 through 2005.  After that period of time, the expectation of this fan base is year in and year out participation in the SB and more SB trophies.  They seem to see that as a given and an entitlement in a way.  As pointed out, to go to 5 SBs in the last 11 years is an amazing feat given the parity drive of the NFL.  Brady and BB are but a VERY small handfull of folks who have even been on the field as a participating player or coach for 5 SBs let alone 1 or 2!  Yes, when your thirst in the early days was being quenched with SB win after another for a few years, that thirst will only be satisfied with more.  There are a lot of fans in other cities who simply want to sniff the record of the Pats franchise for their own for just a couple seasons, let alone 11!!  

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    I see the whole myth that BB simply won SBs with other people's players has resurfaced so allow me to debunk it yet again.  Here is a list of players that were brought in by BB in one way or another that started or played major roles on at least one of our 3 SB teams:

    Tom Brady
    Richard Seymour
    Matt Light
    David Patten
    Stephen Neal
    Anthony Pleasant
    Larry Izzo
    Mike Vrabel
    Terrell Buckley
    Antowain Smith
    Joe Andruzzi
    Mike Compton
    Greg Randall
    Bobby Hamilton
    Ty Warren
    Eugene Wilson
    Asante Samuel
    Dan Koppen
    Deion Branch
    David Givens
    Jarvis Green
    Roman Phifer
    Rodney Harrison
    Corey Dillon
    Ted Washington
    Vince Wilfork
    Tyrone Poole
    Jermaine Wiggins

    That's practically 30 players and isn't counting guys like Patrick Pass who were important role players.

    If that isn't enough for you let's look at the starting lineups for our 3 SB winning teams.  I've bolded the guys that BB brought in.

     

    2001 Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Mike Compton
    C: Damien Woody
    RG: Joe Andruzzi
    RT: Greg Robinson-Randall
    TE: Jermaine Wiggins
    WR: Troy Brown
    WR: David Patten
    RB: Antowain Smith
    FB: Marc Edwards

    2001 Defense:

    LE: Bobby Hamilton
    LDT: Brandon Mitchell
    RDT: Richard Seymour
    RE: Anthony Pleasant
    LOLB: Mike Vrabel
    MLB: Tedy Bruschi
    ROLB: Willie McGinest
    LCB: Ty Law
    RCB: Otis Smith
    SS: Lawyer Milloy
    FS: Tebucky Jones

     

    2003 Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Russ Hochstein
    C: Dan Koppen
    RG: Joe Andruzzi
    RT: Tom Ashworth
    TE: Daniel Graham
    WR: Troy Brown
    WR: Deion Branch
    RB: Antowain Smith
    FB: Larry Centers

    2003 Defense:

    LE: Bobby Hamilton
    NT: Ted Washington
    RE: Richard Seymour
    LOLB: Willie McGinest
    LILB: Tedy Bruschi
    RILB: Roman Phifer
    ROLB: Mike Vrabel
    LCB: Ty Law
    RCB: Tyrone Poole
    SS: Rodney Harrison
    FS: Eugene WIlson


    2004 Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Joe Andruzzi
    C: Dan Koppen
    RG: Stephen Neal
    RT: Brandon Gorin
    TE: Daniel Graham
    WR: David Givens
    WR: Deion Branch
    RB: Corey Dillon
    FB: Patrick Pass


    2004 Defense:

    LE: Roosevelt Colvin
    NT: Vince Wilfork
    RE: Richard Seymour
    LOLB: Willie McGinest
    LILB: Tedy Bruschi
    RILB: Roman Phifer
    ROLB: Mike Vrabel
    LCB: Asante Samuel
    RCB: Randall Gay
    SS: Rodney Harrison
    FS: Eugene WIlson


    So sure in 2001 BB wasn't as responsible for as many of the starting 11 in the SB as he was in 2003 and 2004, but still a majority at 63% (14/22).  BB was responsible for 86% (38/44) of the players in the starting 11 on offense and defense in the 2003 and 2004 SBs.  Overall then for the 3 SBs BB was responsible for 78% of the starting 11 on both sides of the ball.  At best you could make a weak argument that he doesn't deserve credit for the 2001 team.  He inherited some good players, but let's not kid ourselves here and argue that his personnel decisions didn't have a huge impact on our early success.  It is one thing to criticize BB as a GM, but trying to bolster your argument over any issues you may have with the past few years by arguing that our previous success is due to BB simply winning with other people's players is just not based in fact.   It is an overreach as I said in my original post.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    look at BB's record......enuff said........we can't win every game.....every playoff game ...and every Superbowl... EVERY YEAR. I for one am ecstatic that we are in the competition every year.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from brazilnut. Show brazilnut's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

       I think we need a real defensive coordinator, not one promoted from within.  Also, we have been hurt by our own success.  We lost both Weiss and crennel because we were so successful.  BB needs a defensive coordinator that can Take some of the pressure off of him.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I see the whole myth that BB simply won SBs with other people's players has resurfaced so allow me to debunk it yet again.  Here is a list of players that were brought in by BB in one way or another that started or played major roles on at least one of our 3 SB teams:

    Tom Brady
    Richard Seymour
    Matt Light
    David Patten
    Stephen Neal
    Anthony Pleasant
    Larry Izzo
    Mike Vrabel
    Terrell Buckley
    Antowain Smith
    Joe Andruzzi
    Mike Compton
    Greg Randall
    Bobby Hamilton
    Ty Warren
    Eugene Wilson
    Asante Samuel
    Dan Koppen
    Deion Branch
    David Givens
    Jarvis Green
    Roman Phifer
    Rodney Harrison
    Corey Dillon
    Ted Washington
    Vince Wilfork
    Tyrone Poole
    Jermaine Wiggins

    That's practically 30 players and isn't counting guys like Patrick Pass who were important role players.

    If that isn't enough for you let's look at the starting lineups for our 3 SB winning teams.  I've bolded the guys that BB brought in.

     

    2001 Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Mike Compton
    C: Damien Woody
    RG: Joe Andruzzi
    RT: Greg Robinson-Randall
    TE: Jermaine Wiggins
    WR: Troy Brown
    WR: David Patten
    RB: Antowain Smith
    FB: Marc Edwards

    2001 Defense:

    LE: Bobby Hamilton
    LDT: Brandon Mitchell
    RDT: Richard Seymour
    RE: Anthony Pleasant
    LOLB: Mike Vrabel
    MLB: Tedy Bruschi
    ROLB: Willie McGinest
    LCB: Ty Law
    RCB: Otis Smith
    SS: Lawyer Milloy
    FS: Tebucky Jones

     

    2003 Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Russ Hochstein
    C: Dan Koppen
    RG: Joe Andruzzi
    RT: Tom Ashworth
    TE: Daniel Graham
    WR: Troy Brown
    WR: Deion Branch
    RB: Antowain Smith
    FB: Larry Centers

    2003 Defense:

    LE: Bobby Hamilton
    NT: Ted Washington
    RE: Richard Seymour
    LOLB: Willie McGinest
    LILB: Tedy Bruschi
    RILB: Roman Phifer
    ROLB: Mike Vrabel
    LCB: Ty Law
    RCB: Tyrone Poole
    SS: Rodney Harrison
    FS: Eugene WIlson


    2004 Offense:

    QB: Tom Brady
    LT: Matt Light
    LG: Joe Andruzzi
    C: Dan Koppen
    RG: Stephen Neal
    RT: Brandon Gorin
    TE: Daniel Graham
    WR: David Givens
    WR: Deion Branch
    RB: Corey Dillon
    FB: Patrick Pass


    2004 Defense:

    LE: Roosevelt Colvin
    NT: Vince Wilfork
    RE: Richard Seymour
    LOLB: Willie McGinest
    LILB: Tedy Bruschi
    RILB: Roman Phifer
    ROLB: Mike Vrabel
    LCB: Asante Samuel
    RCB: Randall Gay
    SS: Rodney Harrison
    FS: Eugene WIlson


    So sure in 2001 BB wasn't as responsible for as many of the starting 11 in the SB as he was in 2003 and 2004, but still a majority at 63% (14/22).  BB was responsible for 86% (38/44) of the players in the starting 11 on offense and defense in the 2003 and 2004 SBs.  Overall then for the 3 SBs BB was responsible for 78% of the starting 11 on both sides of the ball.  At best you could make a weak argument that he doesn't deserve credit for the 2001 team.  He inherited some good players, but let's not kid ourselves here and argue that his personnel decisions didn't have a huge impact on our early success.  It is one thing to criticize BB as a GM, but trying to bolster your argument over any issues you may have with the past few years by arguing that our previous success is due to BB simply winning with other people's players is just not based in fact.   It is an overreach as I said in my original post.

    [/QUOTE]


    Listen, I love Belichick, but look at the players you just listed (and they all were good)...all those players were signed or drafted by us in the first 5 years of Belichick's tenure here. Over the last 5 or six years he/we have landed 4 maybe 5 guys that have helped the team (hernandez, Gronk, Jones, spikes). I know I must be missing someone, but the point is, it's been nowhere like it was before...and it's hurt us. Too many trades back. Too much concern with "value". Too many free agent busts and this is where we really have been hurt - the free agent signings or lack of.

    Ocho

    Galloway

    Haynesworth

    Ellis

    Banta Cain

    Fred Taylor

    Shawn Springs

    Gallery

    Fenene

    Derek Burgess

    Damione Lewis

    Marquess Murrell (remember him?) kraft even talked about how good he was going to be! 

    Stallworth, Gonzalez, Gaffney

    Steven Gregory

    Leigh Bodden

    Joseph Addai

    ^^^This is the stuff that has hurt. THis is the stuff that has made the team...Brady and a cloud of dust.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    The whole point of my previous post was dealing with our SB winning teams so I'm not sure why you are talking about the last 5 years.  As I just said I think it is all too common for people who want to criticize BB the GM to attempt to discredit his role in our earlier success to strengthen their argument against him now.  My point was that simply isn't true.  That was the point I was addressing.  Read the OP he specifically makes this argument.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    PCM.. you have a good point.  That Patriots' SB run from 2001 - 2005 has been the expectation of fans to continue unabated to this day.  For some reason, since they did do it back then, there are fans who do not even take not take into account how much of the personnel of the team changed dramatically from year to year.  The team had a significant core of veterans to lead the team.  Now, that core is down to a precious few with lots of young players feeling their oats and learning what it takes to be a winning SB team. Look around the league because there is no other team that maintained such consistency these last 11 years even without winning a SB every year. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    Great posts guys. 

    Bb for sure has hit and misin the the FA market. Mthurl you assembled a decent List of misses, but let's not forget guys like carter, Anderson, waters, gwarren. They all played a key role here 

    My biggest issue is the black hole that consumed us from 06-09 in the draft. Lots of misses here and drafts since have in part tried to compensate for those misses. We especially feel it in the secondary. 

    Question is...what happened to us in that 3-4 year span? What was different in the front office, scouting, player development? I would say the last 2-3 drafts have been solid less a few misses, but overall solid. 06-whereas the beginning of the rebuilding effort and because of all the misses it set it back quite a bit. 

    Thoughts?

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brad34. Show Brad34's posts

    Re: Question: What's that big thing in the corner?

    I think BB is a great coach most wouldn't doubt that and he is headed to the HOF. He has missed as a GM particularly of late in the draft. Passing on Clay Mathews and the likes of Tuck is obviously a mistake but the draft can be a crap shoot. 1 thing that puzzles me is that players like Chung and Mcourtney have looked very good in their first year and we have all said BB picked those well in the draft but have regressed badly in the next few years. The play of the secondary is comical at times and how is that possible under BB?

     

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