Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    In response to coolade2's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    Kind of a dumb retort that ignores the obvious facts in my post.  I am simply reporting the mistake using the nine years of history to prove it.  Sorry if  the truth upsets you. 

    I'm not saying that the team hasn't had some success.  Winning superbowls is a pretty high standard...  but the fact is that this coaching staff has failed in all those big games where the prior staff didn't.    This is hard to quantify and measure but you know it when you see it.    The Patiots became the predictable ones rather than the other way around.  The other coaches made the right moves not the patriots.  The other teams made the right adjustments , had the answers.  Oh well ... better win this week.

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    As I read it, you have two points:

    "The trouble is Belichick is too linear to be a good playcaller.  H'es too straight, too mechanical."

    I don't really know what you're trying to get at here.  Give an example of linear, mechanical play calling and some examples of non-mechanical, non-linear playcalling to help. 

    Your second point is really just an opinion or assertion that the new coordinators are worse than the old.  But there's nothing to back that up in terms of actual examples of mis-called plays.  So it's just an assertion backed with nothing.  Sure you can point to recent playoff losses, but there are many possible reasons for those other than playcalling. (Missing Gronk may explain a lot.) You've got to show a connection between play calling and the loss before you have an argument. 

     

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    OK... One example is a simple play like a reverse.  Patriots have not run reverses this year.  They have a slot end around play that has had success but both Edelman and Amendola were injured with concussions running this play recently  which is kind of freaky.

    POint is it is a play that tries to spring a fast guy into open field but requires some surprise and good timing to execute and get big yards.  We saw Cleveland run it and spring Josh Gordon against the Patriots.  Belichick doesn't run it .  Why not?  He's too straight. 


    Second point is easier.  Charlie WEis won 3 suprbowls with brady when he was just a quasi-rookie.  You think Mcdaniels could have pulled that off...?  Are you denying that Weis' experience calling plays was in integral part in these titles...?  Conversely the lack of big game wins points directly at the playcalling in the critical momnts of the games.  The most dominant team ever   2007 (18-0)  could only muster 14 points.  why ?  because the defense knew what they were going to do .  there was no game plan adjustment, the offense gagged and MCD had no answer.  FAIL. vs win SB.  Pretty simple.

     

     

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    The Pats defense had more to do with those super bowl wins than Weis did. Give McDaniels or O'Brien those defenses in their prime the Pats have 2 more super bowl wins minimum, probably another one last year. The Pats offense wasn't great in 2001 and 2003 but the defense was great, especially when it mattered.

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    Pats D blew leads in all 3 SB wins.  They also had the ball last in SB 36 and Sb 38. Good thing McNabb puked on his shoes and Jon Kasay kicked it out of bounds, huh?

    And, that was in a much easier era to play defense in, too.

    I need to hump that Joe Pats thread about defensive penalties up 50-60% in recent seasons.

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    You need to hump Joe thread?  Little Freudian slip there?  Knew you were sick, but c'mon.

    Fact is the Pats D was giving up 16-19 points per game back then.

    There are D's that give up 16-19 points pg now, the Pats just aren't one of them.

    26 ppg in the past 6 weeks, against pathetic O's.  Luckily the O has averaged, 27+.  Pathetic!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to agcsbill's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fickle fans.....  Same OC from the 2007 team is being bashed now.  Go figure!

    [/QUOTE]


    Josh McDaniels in 07 is to KC Jones in 84-86

    [/QUOTE]

    Ill trump that

    john elway is to Gary bussey as Leon red bone is to frank Zappa.     Your move. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien


    Ok can someone answer me this...Some one who is not a troll I hope.

    How come All I ever here when Brady has an off game is that HE controls everything at the line. he has ability to change every call. Its his fault when the pass plays dont work and he is changing to pad stats. Coach on the field,etc. but when the argument comes to Joshy and how he does as a coach, people want to say Joshy coached the best offense EVA!!!!  well I recall Brady saying MOss was the smartest player he ever played with. They both will go to the hall on skates but we want to credit lil Joshy like he didnt ruin it with Sam Bradford and Orton. What a joke!

    Lets give some credit to 3 hall of famers. Brady, wes and Moss. Joshy wasnt even needed in 07.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien


    With the money on the table, he could only come up with a plan to score to 14 measly points with his BS playcalling that got snuffed out early and he never adjusted. FRONTRUNNER coach

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    Jill McBraniels....   

    Look, they're members of the BB choked offensive system.  It has failed in big games against good teams .  It is a limited regular season system that doesn't adapt in real time against top teams in big games  for all the reasons listed previously in this thread.  It has not evolved this ability...  that is...   yet.  you never know...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    Just for the record, I've posted the play-by-play (New England's offensive plays only) for Super Bowl 42, with all the runs highlighted in red.  Lots of posters criticize the Pats for not sticking with the run, but this shows two things:  first of all, they did come back to the run in many situations when a run made sense; second, the run was mostly very ineffective. 

    We remember all the sacks, but the reality is Maroney was getting stuffed repeatedly too.  Again, the big problem with SB 42 is the Giants defensive front just destroyed our O line.  I don't know how to "scheme" to avoid a mismatch in the trenches like that. 

     

     

    1. 1st Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 05:01
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 69 yards from NYG 30 to NE 1. 39-L.Maroney pushed ob at NE 44 for 43 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      3. 1-10-NE 44(4:52) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 39-L.Maroney [96-B.Cofield].
      4. 2-10-NE 44(4:47) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 47 for 9 yards (28-G.Wilson, 31-A.Ross).
      5. 3-1-NYG 47(4:03) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 42 for 5 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      6. 1-10-NYG 42(3:30) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 10-J.Gaffney.
      7. 2-10-NYG 42(3:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 35 for 7 yards (55-K.Mitchell, 58-A.Pierce).
      8. 3-3-NYG 35(2:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 27 for 8 yards (35-K.Dockery, 28-G.Wilson).
      9. 1-10-NYG 27(2:04) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NYG 25 for 2 yards (98-F.Robbins).
      10. 2-8-NYG 25(1:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 17 for 8 yards (29-S.Madison).
      11. 1-10-NYG 17(:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 84-B.Watson.
      12. 2-10-NYG 17(:32) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk.
      13. 3-10-NYG 17(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 84-B.Watson [92-M.Strahan]. PENALTY on NYG-58-A.Pierce, Defensive Pass Interference, 16 yards, enforced at NYG 17 - No Play.
      14. 1-1-NYG 1(:23) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 1 for no gain (91-J.Tuck).
      15. END QUARTER 1 Super Bowl record-only 2 drives in 1st quarter
      16. NYG 3    NE 7    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:04
    2. 2nd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 2-1-NYG 1(15:00) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
      3. 0-0-NYG 23-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      4. New England Patriots at 11:53
      5. 1-10-NE 33(11:53) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NE 41 for 8 yards (93-J.Alford).
      6. 2-2-NE 41(11:11) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 42 for 1 yard (72-O.Umenyiora).
      7. 3-1-NE 42(10:43) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NE 40 for -2 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 92-M.Strahan).
      8. 4-3-NE 40(10:04) 6-C.Hanson punts 40 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters to NYG 36 for 16 yards (58-P.Woods).
      9. New England Patriots at 08:35
      10. 1-10-NE 30(8:35) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 30 for no gain (91-J.Tuck, 55-K.Mitchell).
      11. 2-10-NE 30(7:55) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 23 for -7 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 3-17-NE 23(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck).
      13. 4-24-NE 16(6:54) 6-C.Hanson punts 41 yards to NYG 43, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 43 for no gain (52-E.Alexander).
      14. New YorkNew England Patriots at 01:47
      15. 1-10-NE 11(1:47) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss [28-G.Wilson].
      16. 2-10-NE 11(1:41) 39-L.Maroney right end to NE 8 for -3 yards (91-J.Tuck, 72-O.Umenyiora).
      17. Timeout #1 by NYG at 01:35.
      18. 3-13-NE 8(1:35) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NE 26 for 18 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NE 26(1:11) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss [91-J.Tuck].
      20. 2-10-NE 26(1:05) (Shotgun) 33-K.Faulk up the middle to NE 41 for 15 yards (92-M.Strahan). PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 33.
      21. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:59.
      22. 2-13-NE 23(:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 32 for 9 yards (98-F.Robbins, 91-J.Tuck).
      23. 3-4-NE 32(:35) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 38 for 6 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      24. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:28.
      25. 1-10-NE 38(:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss pushed ob at NYG 44 for 18 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      26. 1-10-NYG 44(:22) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 49 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck). FUMBLES (91-J.Tuck), RECOVERED by NYG-72-O.Umenyiora at NE 49. 72-O.Umenyiora to NE 49 for no gain (67-D.Koppen).
      27. 3rd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 15:00
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 65 yards from NYG 30 to NE 5. 39-L.Maroney to NE 21 for 16 yards (57-C.Blackburn, 43-M.Johnson).
      3. 1-10-NE 21(14:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 36 for 15 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 55-K.Mitchell) [92-M.Strahan].
      4. 1-10-NE 36(14:16) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 43 for 7 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 28-G.Wilson).
      5. 2-3-NE 43(13:41) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk (92-M.Strahan).
      6. 3-3-NE 43(13:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 48 for 5 yards (43-M.Johnson, 55-K.Mitchell) [72-O.Umenyiora].
      7. 1-10-NE 48(13:02) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 46 for -2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      8. 2-12-NE 46(12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 47 for 7 yards (58-A.Pierce, 55-K.Mitchell).
      9. 3-5-NYG 47(11:38) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 44 for 3 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      10. 4-2-NYG 44(11:07) (Punt formation) 6-C.Hanson punts 31 yards to NYG 13, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters ran ob at NYG 14 for 1 yard. New England challenged the too many players on field ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Punt formation) PENALTY on NYG-57-C.Blackburn, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 44 - No Play.
      11. 1-10-NYG 39(11:00) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NYG 35 for 4 yards (98-F.Robbins, 58-A.Pierce). NE 12-Brady 84 career Super Bowl completions, NFL record.
      12. 2-6-NYG 35(10:25) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 35 - No Play.
      13. 2-11-NYG 40(10:08) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 42 for -2 yards (31-A.Ross, 23-C.Webster).
      14. 3-13-NYG 42(9:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 28 for 14 yards (28-G.Wilson, 58-A.Pierce).
      15. 1-10-NYG 28(8:42) 39-L.Maroney right guard to NYG 28 for no gain (53-R.Torbor).
      16. 2-10-NYG 28(8:10) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 88-K.Brady to NYG 25 for 3 yards (53-R.Torbor).
      17. 3-7-NYG 25(7:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NYG 31 for -6 yards (92-M.Strahan).
      18. 4-13-NYG 31(6:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 10-J.Gaffney.
      19. New YorkNew England Patriots at 03:04
      20. 1-10-NE 10(3:04) PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 10 - No Play.
      21. 1-15-NE 5(3:04) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 18-D.Stallworth.
      22. 2-15-NE 5(3:01) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NE 21 for 16 yards (28-G.Wilson).
      23. 1-10-NE 21(2:19) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 30 for 9 yards (96-B.Cofield, 55-K.Mitchell).
      24. 2-1-NE 30(1:47) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 32 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      25. 1-10-NE 32(1:03) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 49 for 19 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      26. 1-10-NYG 49(:17) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker.
      27. 2-10-NYG 49(:14) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 49 - No Play.
      28. 2-15-NE 46(:14) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
      29. 3-15-NE 46(:06) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 45 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      30. END QUARTER 3
    3. 4th Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 4-6-NYG 45(15:00) 6-C.Hanson punts 45 yards to end zone, Center-66-L.Paxton, Touchback.
      3. New England Patriots at 11:05
      4. 9-L.Tynes kicks 67 yards from NYG 30 to NE 3. 39-L.Maroney to NE 32 for 29 yards (58-A.Pierce, 59-G.Wilkinson). PENALTY on NE-71-R.Hochstein, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 21.
      5. 1-10-NE 11(10:59) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 28 for 17 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      6. 1-10-NE 28(10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 31 for 3 yards (29-S.Madison).
      7. 2-7-NE 31(9:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss.
      8. 3-7-NE 31(9:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 83-W.Welker (29-S.Madison).
      9. 4-7-NE 31(9:30) 6-C.Hanson punts 49 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 29 for 9 yards (53-L.Izzo).
      10. New England Patriots at 07:54
      11. 1-10-NE 20(7:54) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 25 for 5 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 2-5-NE 25(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 35 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster).
      13. 1-10-NE 35(6:39) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 44 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      14. 2-1-NE 44(6:14) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 43 for 13 yards (58-A.Pierce, 37-Ja.Butler).
      15. 1-10-NYG 43(5:27) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk pushed ob at NYG 39 for 4 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      16. 2-6-NYG 39(5:01) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 29 for 10 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NE 83-Welker 11th reception of game, ties Super Bowl record (Dan Ross, Jerry Rice & Deion Branch)
      17. 1-10-NYG 29(4:15) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 18-D.Stallworth.
      18. 2-10-NYG 29(4:12) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NYG 18 for 11 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NYG 18(3:31) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 6 for 12 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NYG-98-F.Robbins was injured during the play.
      20. 1-6-NYG 6(2:55) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 81-R.Moss.
      21. 2-6-NYG 6(2:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker. NYG-37-Ja.Butler was injured during the play.
      22. 3-6-NYG 6(2:45) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
      23. 3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      24. NYG 10    NE 14    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:12
      25. New England Patriots at 00:35
      26. 9-L.Tynes kicks 61 yards from NYG 30 to NE 9. 39-L.Maroney to NE 26 for 17 yards (51-Z.DeOssie, 57-C.Blackburn).
      27. 1-10-NE 26(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 10-J.Gaffney.
      28. 2-10-NE 26(:25) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -10 yards (93-J.Alford).
      29. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:19.
      30. 3-20-NE 16(:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (23-C.Webster).
      31. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:10.
      32. 4-20-NE 16(:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (28-G.Wilson).
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to Philskiw1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to agcsbill's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fickle fans.....  Same OC from the 2007 team is being bashed now.  Go figure!

    [/QUOTE]


    Josh McDaniels in 07 is to KC Jones in 84-86

    [/QUOTE]

    Ill trump that

    john elway is to Gary bussey as Leon red bone is to frank Zappa.     Your move. 

    [/QUOTE]


    May I ask you what is your interpretation and understanding of my comment...

    Thank-You

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

    [/QUOTE]


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    Another thing to keep in mind when looking at the play-by-play is down and distance.  A short run on first down or an incomplete pass almost always forces a team into passing more on second and third down.  In any game, the pass-run balance is going to shift in favour of more passes if first down plays don't gain more than 2 yards.  Short runs and incomplete passes on first down almost always translate into more passes on subsequent downs.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Like I said I  am not saying running was always the answer but if the question is would this offense have done better under wiess in that SB,. my answer would be an astounding YES. That game was lost before it started and I believe if there is ONE game where coaching overcome a lot its Football. I mean both times we played we were better teams on paper with better records so how can you ignore coaching and just say the D line overpowered our O line? The same could be said for GB/Pats 96 but freaking Drew statue bledsoe put up more than we did with R.White on his butt. Weiss gave us a chance but Desmond Howard killed us. Either way, you make great points, I just dont think Joshy is  a great coach. Very smart, knows the game but cant coach.

    I see it all the time. Right now my 10 y/o is in a bbal league, his coaches Stink. One of them knows the game from playing and seemed good for a month of practice but once we played the 1st game I could tell he had never coached. I noticed too many little things not being adressed and he was thoroughly outcoached.I had to write up a plan of action for the coaches.   Thats Joshy. Knows the game in and out but is wet behind  the ears in big game coaching and lacks the ability to adjust and still needs BB to fix the problems he cant

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Neither passing or rushing was very effective in that game. But if you take a gander at ProFootball Reference, the pass was actually MORE effective than the rush as expressed in Expected Points. And the offense, again, was better than the defense as well in Expected Points. People have imaginations on them ... but taken as a whole, the NYG dominated both phases at the line. 

    Running more might well have hurt the final score as opposed to helping it, at least if we use prior success in various sitautions throughout the game as a predictor.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Neither passing or rushing was very effective in that game. But if you take a gander at ProFootball Reference, the pass was actually MORE effective than the rush as expressed in Expected Points. And the offense, again, was better than the defense as well in Expected Points. People have imaginations on them ... but taken as a whole, the NYG dominated both phases at the line. 

    Running more might well have hurt the final score as opposed to helping it, at least if we use prior success in various sitautions throughout the game as a predictor.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good call Z. As evidenced, we should have taken the 135 passes to 55 rushes in the 3 losses in a row to the giants, and thrown that plan out the window. Since pro football reference clearly shows us, the pass was more effective them the run, so out of those 190 plays we used, we should have thrown like 160 or 170 times and ran 30 or even 20 times.....I mean heck, the results couldn't have gotten any worse, 3 losses and 2 of them were super bowls. Maybe even pass 190 times and rush zero??? Right?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Neither passing or rushing was very effective in that game. But if you take a gander at ProFootball Reference, the pass was actually MORE effective than the rush as expressed in Expected Points. And the offense, again, was better than the defense as well in Expected Points. People have imaginations on them ... but taken as a whole, the NYG dominated both phases at the line. 

    Running more might well have hurt the final score as opposed to helping it, at least if we use prior success in various sitautions throughout the game as a predictor.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good call Z. As evidenced, we should have taken the 135 passes to 55 rushes in the 3 losses in a row to the giants, and thrown that plan out the window. Since pro football reference clearly shows us, the pass was more effective them the run, so out of those 190 plays we used, we should have thrown like 160 or 170 times and ran 30 or even 20 times.....I mean heck, the results couldn't have gotten any worse, 3 losses and 2 of them were super bowls. Maybe even pass 190 times and rush zero??? Right?

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, if you have a shallow conception of running and passing you might look at it that way. The NFL doesn't work the way you seem to think it does though, as I've said before. 

    The game plan isn't to throw the ball X amount of times or run the ball X amount of times. But when you are down late in the game three times in a row ... you are basically forced to pass to extend the game and give yourself a maximum number of chances to score. Also, when you don't run successfully on first down and second down, you force yourself to throw more passes on third down to make up the yardage.  

    I beleive, most losses NE sustains feature something close to a 55/45 pass/run ratio until the third quarter. After that, the final few drives decide what the final ratio looks like. Last week was a very typical look. Sure they threw the balkl 55 times ... but 32 of those passes came on three final drives. Prior too that I think the ratio was something like 23/20 pass run. That works out to something like 53% passing, when they had such luxury of time. That is HARDLY abandoning the run, or not sticking with the run. They ran until it DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO RUN ANYMORE. No team is going to be handing the ball off with three minutes left on the clock unless they have a lead. 

    Perhaps, especially in the last contest, if NE had passed more frequently early on they would have had greater success and wouldn't have been left scrambling later on trying to catch up to the Giants? 

    The final ratio could have been the same, or may have even shown more running plays ... but those plays would have come AFTER they had built a lead big enough to run the clock on top of.  

    Lastly, the numbers you are citing are absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.

    If you take any three losses by any one team, it's highly likely they will have many more passes than runs. In fact, it would be odd if they didn't. Again, teams that don't play well for the first three quarters are usually forced into passing almost exclusively for the last quarter. 

    So ... here are three completely arbitray slices of football life. The first is the r/p ratio from the losses by the NYG this season. 

    Those games featured 128 passes to just 46 runs. 

    OR how about, arbitrarily selected again, the first three losses by the Ravens this season. 

    Those games featured 137 passes and only 63 runs. 

    Did the Giants and Ravens just throw their Superbowl winning game plans ... (The Super Duper Secret of Sucess: JUST RUN DUMMY! by TC, Rusty, et al) ... out the window? Did they forget how to put together a game plan? Why oh why would they forget the secret? Did McDaniels sneak into their office and replace HIS game plan with theirs?

    Or, can you, at long, long last finally admit that I have a valid point and that run/pass numbers are always situationally decided?

    I await your answer. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just for the record, I've posted the play-by-play (New England's offensive plays only) for Super Bowl 42, with all the runs highlighted in red.  Lots of posters criticize the Pats for not sticking with the run, but this shows two things:  first of all, they did come back to the run in many situations when a run made sense; second, the run was mostly very ineffective. 

    We remember all the sacks, but the reality is Maroney was getting stuffed repeatedly too.  Again, the big problem with SB 42 is the Giants defensive front just destroyed our O line.  I don't know how to "scheme" to avoid a mismatch in the trenches like that. 

     

     

    1. 1st Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 05:01
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 69 yards from NYG 30 to NE 1. 39-L.Maroney pushed ob at NE 44 for 43 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      3. 1-10-NE 44(4:52) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 39-L.Maroney [96-B.Cofield].
      4. 2-10-NE 44(4:47) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 47 for 9 yards (28-G.Wilson, 31-A.Ross).
      5. 3-1-NYG 47(4:03) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 42 for 5 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      6. 1-10-NYG 42(3:30) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 10-J.Gaffney.
      7. 2-10-NYG 42(3:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 35 for 7 yards (55-K.Mitchell, 58-A.Pierce).
      8. 3-3-NYG 35(2:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 27 for 8 yards (35-K.Dockery, 28-G.Wilson).
      9. 1-10-NYG 27(2:04) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NYG 25 for 2 yards (98-F.Robbins).
      10. 2-8-NYG 25(1:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 17 for 8 yards (29-S.Madison).
      11. 1-10-NYG 17(:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 84-B.Watson.
      12. 2-10-NYG 17(:32) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk.
      13. 3-10-NYG 17(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 84-B.Watson [92-M.Strahan]. PENALTY on NYG-58-A.Pierce, Defensive Pass Interference, 16 yards, enforced at NYG 17 - No Play.
      14. 1-1-NYG 1(:23) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 1 for no gain (91-J.Tuck).
      15. END QUARTER 1 Super Bowl record-only 2 drives in 1st quarter
      16. NYG 3    NE 7    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:04
    2. 2nd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 2-1-NYG 1(15:00) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
      3. 0-0-NYG 23-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      4. New England Patriots at 11:53
      5. 1-10-NE 33(11:53) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NE 41 for 8 yards (93-J.Alford).
      6. 2-2-NE 41(11:11) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 42 for 1 yard (72-O.Umenyiora).
      7. 3-1-NE 42(10:43) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NE 40 for -2 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 92-M.Strahan).
      8. 4-3-NE 40(10:04) 6-C.Hanson punts 40 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters to NYG 36 for 16 yards (58-P.Woods).
      9. New England Patriots at 08:35
      10. 1-10-NE 30(8:35) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 30 for no gain (91-J.Tuck, 55-K.Mitchell).
      11. 2-10-NE 30(7:55) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 23 for -7 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 3-17-NE 23(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck).
      13. 4-24-NE 16(6:54) 6-C.Hanson punts 41 yards to NYG 43, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 43 for no gain (52-E.Alexander).
      14. New YorkNew England Patriots at 01:47
      15. 1-10-NE 11(1:47) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss [28-G.Wilson].
      16. 2-10-NE 11(1:41) 39-L.Maroney right end to NE 8 for -3 yards (91-J.Tuck, 72-O.Umenyiora).
      17. Timeout #1 by NYG at 01:35.
      18. 3-13-NE 8(1:35) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NE 26 for 18 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NE 26(1:11) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss [91-J.Tuck].
      20. 2-10-NE 26(1:05) (Shotgun) 33-K.Faulk up the middle to NE 41 for 15 yards (92-M.Strahan). PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 33.
      21. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:59.
      22. 2-13-NE 23(:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 32 for 9 yards (98-F.Robbins, 91-J.Tuck).
      23. 3-4-NE 32(:35) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 38 for 6 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      24. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:28.
      25. 1-10-NE 38(:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss pushed ob at NYG 44 for 18 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      26. 1-10-NYG 44(:22) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 49 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck). FUMBLES (91-J.Tuck), RECOVERED by NYG-72-O.Umenyiora at NE 49. 72-O.Umenyiora to NE 49 for no gain (67-D.Koppen).
      27. 3rd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 15:00
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 65 yards from NYG 30 to NE 5. 39-L.Maroney to NE 21 for 16 yards (57-C.Blackburn, 43-M.Johnson).
      3. 1-10-NE 21(14:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 36 for 15 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 55-K.Mitchell) [92-M.Strahan].
      4. 1-10-NE 36(14:16) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 43 for 7 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 28-G.Wilson).
      5. 2-3-NE 43(13:41) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk (92-M.Strahan).
      6. 3-3-NE 43(13:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 48 for 5 yards (43-M.Johnson, 55-K.Mitchell) [72-O.Umenyiora].
      7. 1-10-NE 48(13:02) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 46 for -2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      8. 2-12-NE 46(12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 47 for 7 yards (58-A.Pierce, 55-K.Mitchell).
      9. 3-5-NYG 47(11:38) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 44 for 3 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      10. 4-2-NYG 44(11:07) (Punt formation) 6-C.Hanson punts 31 yards to NYG 13, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters ran ob at NYG 14 for 1 yard. New England challenged the too many players on field ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Punt formation) PENALTY on NYG-57-C.Blackburn, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 44 - No Play.
      11. 1-10-NYG 39(11:00) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NYG 35 for 4 yards (98-F.Robbins, 58-A.Pierce). NE 12-Brady 84 career Super Bowl completions, NFL record.
      12. 2-6-NYG 35(10:25) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 35 - No Play.
      13. 2-11-NYG 40(10:08) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 42 for -2 yards (31-A.Ross, 23-C.Webster).
      14. 3-13-NYG 42(9:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 28 for 14 yards (28-G.Wilson, 58-A.Pierce).
      15. 1-10-NYG 28(8:42) 39-L.Maroney right guard to NYG 28 for no gain (53-R.Torbor).
      16. 2-10-NYG 28(8:10) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 88-K.Brady to NYG 25 for 3 yards (53-R.Torbor).
      17. 3-7-NYG 25(7:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NYG 31 for -6 yards (92-M.Strahan).
      18. 4-13-NYG 31(6:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 10-J.Gaffney.
      19. New YorkNew England Patriots at 03:04
      20. 1-10-NE 10(3:04) PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 10 - No Play.
      21. 1-15-NE 5(3:04) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 18-D.Stallworth.
      22. 2-15-NE 5(3:01) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NE 21 for 16 yards (28-G.Wilson).
      23. 1-10-NE 21(2:19) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 30 for 9 yards (96-B.Cofield, 55-K.Mitchell).
      24. 2-1-NE 30(1:47) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 32 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      25. 1-10-NE 32(1:03) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 49 for 19 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      26. 1-10-NYG 49(:17) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker.
      27. 2-10-NYG 49(:14) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 49 - No Play.
      28. 2-15-NE 46(:14) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
      29. 3-15-NE 46(:06) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 45 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      30. END QUARTER 3
    3. 4th Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 4-6-NYG 45(15:00) 6-C.Hanson punts 45 yards to end zone, Center-66-L.Paxton, Touchback.
      3. New England Patriots at 11:05
      4. 9-L.Tynes kicks 67 yards from NYG 30 to NE 3. 39-L.Maroney to NE 32 for 29 yards (58-A.Pierce, 59-G.Wilkinson). PENALTY on NE-71-R.Hochstein, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 21.
      5. 1-10-NE 11(10:59) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 28 for 17 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      6. 1-10-NE 28(10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 31 for 3 yards (29-S.Madison).
      7. 2-7-NE 31(9:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss.
      8. 3-7-NE 31(9:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 83-W.Welker (29-S.Madison).
      9. 4-7-NE 31(9:30) 6-C.Hanson punts 49 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 29 for 9 yards (53-L.Izzo).
      10. New England Patriots at 07:54
      11. 1-10-NE 20(7:54) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 25 for 5 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 2-5-NE 25(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 35 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster).
      13. 1-10-NE 35(6:39) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 44 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      14. 2-1-NE 44(6:14) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 43 for 13 yards (58-A.Pierce, 37-Ja.Butler).
      15. 1-10-NYG 43(5:27) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk pushed ob at NYG 39 for 4 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      16. 2-6-NYG 39(5:01) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 29 for 10 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NE 83-Welker 11th reception of game, ties Super Bowl record (Dan Ross, Jerry Rice & Deion Branch)
      17. 1-10-NYG 29(4:15) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 18-D.Stallworth.
      18. 2-10-NYG 29(4:12) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NYG 18 for 11 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NYG 18(3:31) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 6 for 12 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NYG-98-F.Robbins was injured during the play.
      20. 1-6-NYG 6(2:55) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 81-R.Moss.
      21. 2-6-NYG 6(2:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker. NYG-37-Ja.Butler was injured during the play.
      22. 3-6-NYG 6(2:45) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
      23. 3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      24. NYG 10    NE 14    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:12
      25. New England Patriots at 00:35
      26. 9-L.Tynes kicks 61 yards from NYG 30 to NE 9. 39-L.Maroney to NE 26 for 17 yards (51-Z.DeOssie, 57-C.Blackburn).
      27. 1-10-NE 26(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 10-J.Gaffney.
      28. 2-10-NE 26(:25) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -10 yards (93-J.Alford).
      29. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:19.
      30. 3-20-NE 16(:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (23-C.Webster).
      31. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:10.
      32. 4-20-NE 16(:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (28-G.Wilson).

    [/QUOTE]

    Kevin faulk had 1 carry. Good game plan? Good coaching? Good end result?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just for the record, I've posted the play-by-play (New England's offensive plays only) for Super Bowl 42, with all the runs highlighted in red.  Lots of posters criticize the Pats for not sticking with the run, but this shows two things:  first of all, they did come back to the run in many situations when a run made sense; second, the run was mostly very ineffective. 

    We remember all the sacks, but the reality is Maroney was getting stuffed repeatedly too.  Again, the big problem with SB 42 is the Giants defensive front just destroyed our O line.  I don't know how to "scheme" to avoid a mismatch in the trenches like that. 

     

     

    1. 1st Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 05:01
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 69 yards from NYG 30 to NE 1. 39-L.Maroney pushed ob at NE 44 for 43 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      3. 1-10-NE 44(4:52) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 39-L.Maroney [96-B.Cofield].
      4. 2-10-NE 44(4:47) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 47 for 9 yards (28-G.Wilson, 31-A.Ross).
      5. 3-1-NYG 47(4:03) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 42 for 5 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      6. 1-10-NYG 42(3:30) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 10-J.Gaffney.
      7. 2-10-NYG 42(3:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 35 for 7 yards (55-K.Mitchell, 58-A.Pierce).
      8. 3-3-NYG 35(2:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 27 for 8 yards (35-K.Dockery, 28-G.Wilson).
      9. 1-10-NYG 27(2:04) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NYG 25 for 2 yards (98-F.Robbins).
      10. 2-8-NYG 25(1:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 17 for 8 yards (29-S.Madison).
      11. 1-10-NYG 17(:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 84-B.Watson.
      12. 2-10-NYG 17(:32) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk.
      13. 3-10-NYG 17(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 84-B.Watson [92-M.Strahan]. PENALTY on NYG-58-A.Pierce, Defensive Pass Interference, 16 yards, enforced at NYG 17 - No Play.
      14. 1-1-NYG 1(:23) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 1 for no gain (91-J.Tuck).
      15. END QUARTER 1 Super Bowl record-only 2 drives in 1st quarter
      16. NYG 3    NE 7    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:04
    2. 2nd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 2-1-NYG 1(15:00) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
      3. 0-0-NYG 23-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      4. New England Patriots at 11:53
      5. 1-10-NE 33(11:53) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NE 41 for 8 yards (93-J.Alford).
      6. 2-2-NE 41(11:11) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 42 for 1 yard (72-O.Umenyiora).
      7. 3-1-NE 42(10:43) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NE 40 for -2 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 92-M.Strahan).
      8. 4-3-NE 40(10:04) 6-C.Hanson punts 40 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters to NYG 36 for 16 yards (58-P.Woods).
      9. New England Patriots at 08:35
      10. 1-10-NE 30(8:35) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 30 for no gain (91-J.Tuck, 55-K.Mitchell).
      11. 2-10-NE 30(7:55) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 23 for -7 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 3-17-NE 23(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck).
      13. 4-24-NE 16(6:54) 6-C.Hanson punts 41 yards to NYG 43, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 43 for no gain (52-E.Alexander).
      14. New YorkNew England Patriots at 01:47
      15. 1-10-NE 11(1:47) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss [28-G.Wilson].
      16. 2-10-NE 11(1:41) 39-L.Maroney right end to NE 8 for -3 yards (91-J.Tuck, 72-O.Umenyiora).
      17. Timeout #1 by NYG at 01:35.
      18. 3-13-NE 8(1:35) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NE 26 for 18 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NE 26(1:11) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss [91-J.Tuck].
      20. 2-10-NE 26(1:05) (Shotgun) 33-K.Faulk up the middle to NE 41 for 15 yards (92-M.Strahan). PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 33.
      21. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:59.
      22. 2-13-NE 23(:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 32 for 9 yards (98-F.Robbins, 91-J.Tuck).
      23. 3-4-NE 32(:35) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 38 for 6 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      24. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:28.
      25. 1-10-NE 38(:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss pushed ob at NYG 44 for 18 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      26. 1-10-NYG 44(:22) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 49 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck). FUMBLES (91-J.Tuck), RECOVERED by NYG-72-O.Umenyiora at NE 49. 72-O.Umenyiora to NE 49 for no gain (67-D.Koppen).
      27. 3rd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 15:00
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 65 yards from NYG 30 to NE 5. 39-L.Maroney to NE 21 for 16 yards (57-C.Blackburn, 43-M.Johnson).
      3. 1-10-NE 21(14:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 36 for 15 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 55-K.Mitchell) [92-M.Strahan].
      4. 1-10-NE 36(14:16) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 43 for 7 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 28-G.Wilson).
      5. 2-3-NE 43(13:41) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk (92-M.Strahan).
      6. 3-3-NE 43(13:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 48 for 5 yards (43-M.Johnson, 55-K.Mitchell) [72-O.Umenyiora].
      7. 1-10-NE 48(13:02) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 46 for -2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      8. 2-12-NE 46(12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 47 for 7 yards (58-A.Pierce, 55-K.Mitchell).
      9. 3-5-NYG 47(11:38) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 44 for 3 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      10. 4-2-NYG 44(11:07) (Punt formation) 6-C.Hanson punts 31 yards to NYG 13, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters ran ob at NYG 14 for 1 yard. New England challenged the too many players on field ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Punt formation) PENALTY on NYG-57-C.Blackburn, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 44 - No Play.
      11. 1-10-NYG 39(11:00) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NYG 35 for 4 yards (98-F.Robbins, 58-A.Pierce). NE 12-Brady 84 career Super Bowl completions, NFL record.
      12. 2-6-NYG 35(10:25) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 35 - No Play.
      13. 2-11-NYG 40(10:08) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 42 for -2 yards (31-A.Ross, 23-C.Webster).
      14. 3-13-NYG 42(9:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 28 for 14 yards (28-G.Wilson, 58-A.Pierce).
      15. 1-10-NYG 28(8:42) 39-L.Maroney right guard to NYG 28 for no gain (53-R.Torbor).
      16. 2-10-NYG 28(8:10) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 88-K.Brady to NYG 25 for 3 yards (53-R.Torbor).
      17. 3-7-NYG 25(7:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NYG 31 for -6 yards (92-M.Strahan).
      18. 4-13-NYG 31(6:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 10-J.Gaffney.
      19. New YorkNew England Patriots at 03:04
      20. 1-10-NE 10(3:04) PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 10 - No Play.
      21. 1-15-NE 5(3:04) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 18-D.Stallworth.
      22. 2-15-NE 5(3:01) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NE 21 for 16 yards (28-G.Wilson).
      23. 1-10-NE 21(2:19) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 30 for 9 yards (96-B.Cofield, 55-K.Mitchell).
      24. 2-1-NE 30(1:47) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 32 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      25. 1-10-NE 32(1:03) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 49 for 19 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      26. 1-10-NYG 49(:17) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker.
      27. 2-10-NYG 49(:14) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 49 - No Play.
      28. 2-15-NE 46(:14) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
      29. 3-15-NE 46(:06) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 45 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      30. END QUARTER 3
    3. 4th Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 4-6-NYG 45(15:00) 6-C.Hanson punts 45 yards to end zone, Center-66-L.Paxton, Touchback.
      3. New England Patriots at 11:05
      4. 9-L.Tynes kicks 67 yards from NYG 30 to NE 3. 39-L.Maroney to NE 32 for 29 yards (58-A.Pierce, 59-G.Wilkinson). PENALTY on NE-71-R.Hochstein, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 21.
      5. 1-10-NE 11(10:59) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 28 for 17 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      6. 1-10-NE 28(10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 31 for 3 yards (29-S.Madison).
      7. 2-7-NE 31(9:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss.
      8. 3-7-NE 31(9:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 83-W.Welker (29-S.Madison).
      9. 4-7-NE 31(9:30) 6-C.Hanson punts 49 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 29 for 9 yards (53-L.Izzo).
      10. New England Patriots at 07:54
      11. 1-10-NE 20(7:54) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 25 for 5 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 2-5-NE 25(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 35 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster).
      13. 1-10-NE 35(6:39) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 44 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      14. 2-1-NE 44(6:14) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 43 for 13 yards (58-A.Pierce, 37-Ja.Butler).
      15. 1-10-NYG 43(5:27) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk pushed ob at NYG 39 for 4 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      16. 2-6-NYG 39(5:01) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 29 for 10 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NE 83-Welker 11th reception of game, ties Super Bowl record (Dan Ross, Jerry Rice & Deion Branch)
      17. 1-10-NYG 29(4:15) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 18-D.Stallworth.
      18. 2-10-NYG 29(4:12) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NYG 18 for 11 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NYG 18(3:31) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 6 for 12 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NYG-98-F.Robbins was injured during the play.
      20. 1-6-NYG 6(2:55) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 81-R.Moss.
      21. 2-6-NYG 6(2:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker. NYG-37-Ja.Butler was injured during the play.
      22. 3-6-NYG 6(2:45) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
      23. 3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      24. NYG 10    NE 14    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:12
      25. New England Patriots at 00:35
      26. 9-L.Tynes kicks 61 yards from NYG 30 to NE 9. 39-L.Maroney to NE 26 for 17 yards (51-Z.DeOssie, 57-C.Blackburn).
      27. 1-10-NE 26(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 10-J.Gaffney.
      28. 2-10-NE 26(:25) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -10 yards (93-J.Alford).
      29. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:19.
      30. 3-20-NE 16(:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (23-C.Webster).
      31. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:10.
      32. 4-20-NE 16(:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (28-G.Wilson).

    [/QUOTE]

    Kevin faulk had 1 carry. Good game plan? Good coaching? Good end result?

    [/QUOTE]

    There was no statue of liberty play either.  Maybe that would have done it. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     


    There was no statue of liberty play either.  Maybe that would have done it. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    We need a SoL/Pass/Run ratio. I'd be willing to bet it correlates as well as running to winning.

    (running more through three quarters correlates with winning at about .51 Basically it is about as useful a predictor of winning as flipping a coin)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

     In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Neither passing or rushing was very effective in that game. But if you take a gander at ProFootball Reference, the pass was actually MORE effective than the rush as expressed in Expected Points. And the offense, again, was better than the defense as well in Expected Points. People have imaginations on them ... but taken as a whole, the NYG dominated both phases at the line. 

    Running more might well have hurt the final score as opposed to helping it, at least if we use prior success in various sitautions throughout the game as a predictor.

    [/QUOTE]

    Good call Z. As evidenced, we should have taken the 135 passes to 55 rushes in the 3 losses in a row to the giants, and thrown that plan out the window. Since pro football reference clearly shows us, the pass was more effective them the run, so out of those 190 plays we used, we should have thrown like 160 or 170 times and ran 30 or even 20 times.....I mean heck, the results couldn't have gotten any worse, 3 losses and 2 of them were super bowls. Maybe even pass 190 times and rush zero??? Right?

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, if you have a shallow conception of running and passing you might look at it that way. The NFL doesn't work the way you seem to think it does though, as I've said before. 

    The game plan isn't to throw the ball X amount of times or run the ball X amount of times. But when you are down late in the game three times in a row ... you are basically forced to pass to extend the game and give yourself a maximum number of chances to score. Also, when you don't run successfully on first down and second down, you force yourself to throw more passes on third down to make up the yardage.  

    I beleive, most losses NE sustains feature something close to a 55/45 pass/run ratio until the third quarter. After that, the final few drives decide what the final ratio looks like. Last week was a very typical look. Sure they threw the balkl 55 times ... but 32 of those passes came on three final drives. Prior too that I think the ratio was something like 23/20 pass run. That works out to something like 53% passing, when they had such luxury of time. That is HARDLY abandoning the run, or not sticking with the run. They ran until it DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO RUN ANYMORE. No team is going to be handing the ball off with three minutes left on the clock unless they have a lead. 

    Perhaps, especially in the last contest, if NE had passed more frequently early on they would have had greater success and wouldn't have been left scrambling later on trying to catch up to the Giants? 

    The final ratio could have been the same, or may have even shown more running plays ... but those plays would have come AFTER they had built a lead big enough to run the clock on top of.  

    Lastly, the numbers you are citing are absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.

    If you take any three losses by any one team, it's highly likely they will have many more passes than runs. In fact, it would be odd if they didn't. Again, teams that don't play well for the first three quarters are usually forced into passing almost exclusively for the last quarter. 

    So ... here are three completely arbitray slices of football life. The first is the r/p ratio from the losses by the NYG this season. 

    Those games featured 128 passes to just 46 runs. 

    OR how about, arbitrarily selected again, the first three losses by the Ravens this season. 

    Those games featured 137 passes and only 63 runs. 

    Did the Giants and Ravens just throw their Superbowl winning game plans ... (The Super Duper Secret of Sucess: JUST RUN DUMMY! by TC, Rusty, et al) ... out the window? Did they forget how to put together a game plan? Why oh why would they forget the secret? Did McDaniels sneak into their office and replace HIS game plan with theirs?

    Or, can you, at long, long last finally admit that I have a valid point and that run/pass numbers are always situationally decided?

    I await your answer. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Of course they are situationally decided, and when you let the other team dictate your actions and force you out of balance and back into the same corner over and over then I am sorry but you are getting out coached and outplayed.  

    Stop trying to belittle what I have said. Im not saying, "you have to run X amount of times" although I believe in a game like the 2011 super bowl if we allowed our lead back to get 20 carries at his 4.4 ypc average in that game then we would have used more clock and not allowed the gints time enough to come back.. if you want to talk play by play,... .instead of throwing a 50 yard pass down field to a hobbled TE who couldn't even win a battle against the defensive linemen covering him downfield, perhaps we could have kept giving the ball to our power back who just ripped off runs of 5 yards and 7 yards before the costly turnover.....but we didn't and we lost a golden opportunity to help put the giants away. It goes hand in hand with what our offensive philosophy has been since the 2007 season.

    I am saying that throwing it 2.5 times more then you run no matter if that was the game plan or not, has not worked for our offense. It made us one dimensional, and allowed playoff defenses to flat out stop us for most of the game...and let's not pretend like we were losing over half the time in any of those games, on the contrary we were winning over half the time.

    Trying to defend an offense that played about 75% below their average I  terms of not only points, but 1st downs is ridiculous. 90 passes to 35 rushes in 2 super bowl losses where you scored 14 and 17 points is inexcusable, no matter which you slice it.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Just for the record, I've posted the play-by-play (New England's offensive plays only) for Super Bowl 42, with all the runs highlighted in red.  Lots of posters criticize the Pats for not sticking with the run, but this shows two things:  first of all, they did come back to the run in many situations when a run made sense; second, the run was mostly very ineffective. 

    We remember all the sacks, but the reality is Maroney was getting stuffed repeatedly too.  Again, the big problem with SB 42 is the Giants defensive front just destroyed our O line.  I don't know how to "scheme" to avoid a mismatch in the trenches like that. 

     

     

    1. 1st Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 05:01
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 69 yards from NYG 30 to NE 1. 39-L.Maroney pushed ob at NE 44 for 43 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      3. 1-10-NE 44(4:52) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 39-L.Maroney [96-B.Cofield].
      4. 2-10-NE 44(4:47) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 47 for 9 yards (28-G.Wilson, 31-A.Ross).
      5. 3-1-NYG 47(4:03) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 42 for 5 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      6. 1-10-NYG 42(3:30) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 10-J.Gaffney.
      7. 2-10-NYG 42(3:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 35 for 7 yards (55-K.Mitchell, 58-A.Pierce).
      8. 3-3-NYG 35(2:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 27 for 8 yards (35-K.Dockery, 28-G.Wilson).
      9. 1-10-NYG 27(2:04) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NYG 25 for 2 yards (98-F.Robbins).
      10. 2-8-NYG 25(1:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 17 for 8 yards (29-S.Madison).
      11. 1-10-NYG 17(:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 84-B.Watson.
      12. 2-10-NYG 17(:32) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk.
      13. 3-10-NYG 17(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 84-B.Watson [92-M.Strahan]. PENALTY on NYG-58-A.Pierce, Defensive Pass Interference, 16 yards, enforced at NYG 17 - No Play.
      14. 1-1-NYG 1(:23) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 1 for no gain (91-J.Tuck).
      15. END QUARTER 1 Super Bowl record-only 2 drives in 1st quarter
      16. NYG 3    NE 7    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:04
    2. 2nd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 2-1-NYG 1(15:00) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
      3. 0-0-NYG 23-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      4. New England Patriots at 11:53
      5. 1-10-NE 33(11:53) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NE 41 for 8 yards (93-J.Alford).
      6. 2-2-NE 41(11:11) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 42 for 1 yard (72-O.Umenyiora).
      7. 3-1-NE 42(10:43) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NE 40 for -2 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 92-M.Strahan).
      8. 4-3-NE 40(10:04) 6-C.Hanson punts 40 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters to NYG 36 for 16 yards (58-P.Woods).
      9. New England Patriots at 08:35
      10. 1-10-NE 30(8:35) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 30 for no gain (91-J.Tuck, 55-K.Mitchell).
      11. 2-10-NE 30(7:55) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 23 for -7 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 3-17-NE 23(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck).
      13. 4-24-NE 16(6:54) 6-C.Hanson punts 41 yards to NYG 43, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 43 for no gain (52-E.Alexander).
      14. New YorkNew England Patriots at 01:47
      15. 1-10-NE 11(1:47) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss [28-G.Wilson].
      16. 2-10-NE 11(1:41) 39-L.Maroney right end to NE 8 for -3 yards (91-J.Tuck, 72-O.Umenyiora).
      17. Timeout #1 by NYG at 01:35.
      18. 3-13-NE 8(1:35) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NE 26 for 18 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NE 26(1:11) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss [91-J.Tuck].
      20. 2-10-NE 26(1:05) (Shotgun) 33-K.Faulk up the middle to NE 41 for 15 yards (92-M.Strahan). PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 33.
      21. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:59.
      22. 2-13-NE 23(:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 32 for 9 yards (98-F.Robbins, 91-J.Tuck).
      23. 3-4-NE 32(:35) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 38 for 6 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      24. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:28.
      25. 1-10-NE 38(:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss pushed ob at NYG 44 for 18 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      26. 1-10-NYG 44(:22) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 49 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck). FUMBLES (91-J.Tuck), RECOVERED by NYG-72-O.Umenyiora at NE 49. 72-O.Umenyiora to NE 49 for no gain (67-D.Koppen).
      27. 3rd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 15:00
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 65 yards from NYG 30 to NE 5. 39-L.Maroney to NE 21 for 16 yards (57-C.Blackburn, 43-M.Johnson).
      3. 1-10-NE 21(14:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 36 for 15 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 55-K.Mitchell) [92-M.Strahan].
      4. 1-10-NE 36(14:16) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 43 for 7 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 28-G.Wilson).
      5. 2-3-NE 43(13:41) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk (92-M.Strahan).
      6. 3-3-NE 43(13:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 48 for 5 yards (43-M.Johnson, 55-K.Mitchell) [72-O.Umenyiora].
      7. 1-10-NE 48(13:02) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 46 for -2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      8. 2-12-NE 46(12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 47 for 7 yards (58-A.Pierce, 55-K.Mitchell).
      9. 3-5-NYG 47(11:38) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 44 for 3 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      10. 4-2-NYG 44(11:07) (Punt formation) 6-C.Hanson punts 31 yards to NYG 13, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters ran ob at NYG 14 for 1 yard. New England challenged the too many players on field ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Punt formation) PENALTY on NYG-57-C.Blackburn, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 44 - No Play.
      11. 1-10-NYG 39(11:00) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NYG 35 for 4 yards (98-F.Robbins, 58-A.Pierce). NE 12-Brady 84 career Super Bowl completions, NFL record.
      12. 2-6-NYG 35(10:25) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 35 - No Play.
      13. 2-11-NYG 40(10:08) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 42 for -2 yards (31-A.Ross, 23-C.Webster).
      14. 3-13-NYG 42(9:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 28 for 14 yards (28-G.Wilson, 58-A.Pierce).
      15. 1-10-NYG 28(8:42) 39-L.Maroney right guard to NYG 28 for no gain (53-R.Torbor).
      16. 2-10-NYG 28(8:10) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 88-K.Brady to NYG 25 for 3 yards (53-R.Torbor).
      17. 3-7-NYG 25(7:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NYG 31 for -6 yards (92-M.Strahan).
      18. 4-13-NYG 31(6:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 10-J.Gaffney.
      19. New YorkNew England Patriots at 03:04
      20. 1-10-NE 10(3:04) PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 10 - No Play.
      21. 1-15-NE 5(3:04) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 18-D.Stallworth.
      22. 2-15-NE 5(3:01) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NE 21 for 16 yards (28-G.Wilson).
      23. 1-10-NE 21(2:19) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 30 for 9 yards (96-B.Cofield, 55-K.Mitchell).
      24. 2-1-NE 30(1:47) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 32 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      25. 1-10-NE 32(1:03) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 49 for 19 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      26. 1-10-NYG 49(:17) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker.
      27. 2-10-NYG 49(:14) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 49 - No Play.
      28. 2-15-NE 46(:14) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
      29. 3-15-NE 46(:06) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 45 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      30. END QUARTER 3
    3. 4th Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 4-6-NYG 45(15:00) 6-C.Hanson punts 45 yards to end zone, Center-66-L.Paxton, Touchback.
      3. New England Patriots at 11:05
      4. 9-L.Tynes kicks 67 yards from NYG 30 to NE 3. 39-L.Maroney to NE 32 for 29 yards (58-A.Pierce, 59-G.Wilkinson). PENALTY on NE-71-R.Hochstein, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 21.
      5. 1-10-NE 11(10:59) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 28 for 17 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      6. 1-10-NE 28(10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 31 for 3 yards (29-S.Madison).
      7. 2-7-NE 31(9:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss.
      8. 3-7-NE 31(9:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 83-W.Welker (29-S.Madison).
      9. 4-7-NE 31(9:30) 6-C.Hanson punts 49 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 29 for 9 yards (53-L.Izzo).
      10. New England Patriots at 07:54
      11. 1-10-NE 20(7:54) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 25 for 5 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 2-5-NE 25(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 35 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster).
      13. 1-10-NE 35(6:39) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 44 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      14. 2-1-NE 44(6:14) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 43 for 13 yards (58-A.Pierce, 37-Ja.Butler).
      15. 1-10-NYG 43(5:27) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk pushed ob at NYG 39 for 4 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      16. 2-6-NYG 39(5:01) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 29 for 10 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NE 83-Welker 11th reception of game, ties Super Bowl record (Dan Ross, Jerry Rice & Deion Branch)
      17. 1-10-NYG 29(4:15) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 18-D.Stallworth.
      18. 2-10-NYG 29(4:12) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NYG 18 for 11 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NYG 18(3:31) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 6 for 12 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NYG-98-F.Robbins was injured during the play.
      20. 1-6-NYG 6(2:55) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 81-R.Moss.
      21. 2-6-NYG 6(2:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker. NYG-37-Ja.Butler was injured during the play.
      22. 3-6-NYG 6(2:45) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
      23. 3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      24. NYG 10    NE 14    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:12
      25. New England Patriots at 00:35
      26. 9-L.Tynes kicks 61 yards from NYG 30 to NE 9. 39-L.Maroney to NE 26 for 17 yards (51-Z.DeOssie, 57-C.Blackburn).
      27. 1-10-NE 26(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 10-J.Gaffney.
      28. 2-10-NE 26(:25) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -10 yards (93-J.Alford).
      29. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:19.
      30. 3-20-NE 16(:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (23-C.Webster).
      31. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:10.
      32. 4-20-NE 16(:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (28-G.Wilson).



    Kevin faulk had 1 carry. Good game plan? Good coaching? Good end result?

    [/QUOTE]

    There was no statue of liberty play either.  Maybe that would have done it. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah great comparison. The amount of times a statue of liberty play is called compared to the all time leader in all purpose yards in Patriot history only getting 1 carry, as we watch 48 passes to 16 rushes net us 24 points. Great, great point!

    EDIT: sorry I wrote 24 points...wishful thinking, we scored 14 points. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    You also highlighted what I mentioned. 1st play of the game was incomplete pass to Maroney  and then.... Maroney ran off a 9 yard run, followed by a 5 yard run which resulted in a 1st down.  The next 9 out of 11 plays were passes, most of them incomplete. Like I said I believe Maroney was not a great back but when teams are putting THAT much emphasis on Brady there will be lanes if you know how to run and that sequence goes against your argument and clearly shows them going away from something that worked early. 9 and 5 yard runs followed by 9 passes  out of 11 plays. Thats the Chit fans are talking about

     

    Remember, though, that was one of their two TD drives and it ate a lot of clock, so all those passes didn't hurt.  That was their first drive. The next two drives both tried to establish the run early and both stalled out in large part because the running plays ended up getting nothing on early downs.  The third drive started with only 1:47 left in the half, so it had to be a pass-heavy drive because of time.  Even with that drive, though, they went to Maroney early and lost 3 yards.  They also tried a run with Faulk, but it was called back because of a holding penalty. 

    I believe Weiss would have recognized the D line salivating at the mouth and not caring about the run and made the run part of the plan. Succes or not, RUn early in the game to settle down the rush. The 1st drive shows they didnt. Once you ran the majority of plays on 1st drive, they would have had to switch up but since we passed more, we played into their hands and failed...but no I dont equate more running = win but I dont agree the run was a failure either. Were the runs predictable? maybe but it seems they went away quite early when they could have established something.

    You can't ignore, though, that the next two drives both featured the run early and both stalled. If the run isn't working, you can't establish much, because you end up punting too fast. 

     




     

     



    Neither passing or rushing was very effective in that game. But if you take a gander at ProFootball Reference, the pass was actually MORE effective than the rush as expressed in Expected Points. And the offense, again, was better than the defense as well in Expected Points. People have imaginations on them ... but taken as a whole, the NYG dominated both phases at the line. 

     

    Running more might well have hurt the final score as opposed to helping it, at least if we use prior success in various sitautions throughout the game as a predictor.



    Good call Z. As evidenced, we should have taken the 135 passes to 55 rushes in the 3 losses in a row to the giants, and thrown that plan out the window. Since pro football reference clearly shows us, the pass was more effective them the run, so out of those 190 plays we used, we should have thrown like 160 or 170 times and ran 30 or even 20 times.....I mean heck, the results couldn't have gotten any worse, 3 losses and 2 of them were super bowls. Maybe even pass 190 times and rush zero??? Right?

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, if you have a shallow conception of running and passing you might look at it that way. The NFL doesn't work the way you seem to think it does though, as I've said before. 

    The game plan isn't to throw the ball X amount of times or run the ball X amount of times. But when you are down late in the game three times in a row ... you are basically forced to pass to extend the game and give yourself a maximum number of chances to score. Also, when you don't run successfully on first down and second down, you force yourself to throw more passes on third down to make up the yardage.  

    I beleive, most losses NE sustains feature something close to a 55/45 pass/run ratio until the third quarter. After that, the final few drives decide what the final ratio looks like. Last week was a very typical look. Sure they threw the balkl 55 times ... but 32 of those passes came on three final drives. Prior too that I think the ratio was something like 23/20 pass run. That works out to something like 53% passing, when they had such luxury of time. That is HARDLY abandoning the run, or not sticking with the run. They ran until it DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO RUN ANYMORE. No team is going to be handing the ball off with three minutes left on the clock unless they have a lead. 

    Perhaps, especially in the last contest, if NE had passed more frequently early on they would have had greater success and wouldn't have been left scrambling later on trying to catch up to the Giants? 

    The final ratio could have been the same, or may have even shown more running plays ... but those plays would have come AFTER they had built a lead big enough to run the clock on top of.  

    Lastly, the numbers you are citing are absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.

    If you take any three losses by any one team, it's highly likely they will have many more passes than runs. In fact, it would be odd if they didn't. Again, teams that don't play well for the first three quarters are usually forced into passing almost exclusively for the last quarter. 

    So ... here are three completely arbitray slices of football life. The first is the r/p ratio from the losses by the NYG this season. 

    Those games featured 128 passes to just 46 runs. 

    OR how about, arbitrarily selected again, the first three losses by the Ravens this season. 

    Those games featured 137 passes and only 63 runs. 

    Did the Giants and Ravens just throw their Superbowl winning game plans ... (The Super Duper Secret of Sucess: JUST RUN DUMMY! by TC, Rusty, et al) ... out the window? Did they forget how to put together a game plan? Why oh why would they forget the secret? Did McDaniels sneak into their office and replace HIS game plan with theirs?

    Or, can you, at long, long last finally admit that I have a valid point and that run/pass numbers are always situationally decided?

    I await your answer. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Of course they are situationally decided, and when you let the other team dictate your actions and force you out of balance and back into the same corner over and over then I am sorry but you are getting out coached and outplayed.  

    Stop trying to belittle what I have said. Im not saying, "you have to run X amount of times" although I believe in a game like the 2011 super bowl if we allowed our lead back to get 20 carries at his 4.4 ypc average in that game then we would have used more clock and not allowed the gints time enough to come back.. if you want to talk play by play,... .instead of throwing a 50 yard pass down field to a hobbled TE who couldn't even win a battle against the defensive linemen covering him downfield, perhaps we could have kept giving the ball to our power back who just ripped off runs of 5 yards and 7 yards before the costly turnover.....but we didn't and we lost a golden opportunity to help put the giants away. It goes hand in hand with what our offensive philosophy has been since the 2007 season.

    I am saying that throwing it 2.5 times more then you run no matter if that was the game plan or not, has not worked for our offense. It made us one dimensional, and allowed playoff defenses to flat out stop us for most of the game...and let's not pretend like we were losing over half the time in any of those games, on the contrary we were winning over half the time.

    Trying to defend an offense that played about 75% below their average I  terms of not only points, but 1st downs is ridiculous. 90 passes to 35 rushes in 2 super bowl losses where you scored 14 and 17 points is inexcusable, no matter which you slice it.

    [/QUOTE]

    It really amazes me how you and Rusty know for certain that handing off to BJGE in the Super Bowl more would have won the game, but O'Brien (or was it McDaniels--they were both there?) didn't see it and Belichick also didn't know this great secret to winning or, if he did, didn't bother to divulge it to them sometime before the game ended.

    Really, why is it so hard to accept what we've now seen year after year?  With Gronk out (or hobbled), the offense doesn't have the weapons to score more than an average amount of points?*  And when you can't score more than an average amount of points on offense, your defense needs to be very good to win championships?

    In the 2001 super bowl, the Charlie Weis offense delivered a whopping 13 points and yet the Pats won.  Charlie Weis didn't win that game.  The defense did.

     

     

     *Mike Reiss reports the Pats have scored on 69% of their trips to the red zone this year when Gronk has been playing and on only 39% when he's been out.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Just for the record, I've posted the play-by-play (New England's offensive plays only) for Super Bowl 42, with all the runs highlighted in red.  Lots of posters criticize the Pats for not sticking with the run, but this shows two things:  first of all, they did come back to the run in many situations when a run made sense; second, the run was mostly very ineffective. 

    We remember all the sacks, but the reality is Maroney was getting stuffed repeatedly too.  Again, the big problem with SB 42 is the Giants defensive front just destroyed our O line.  I don't know how to "scheme" to avoid a mismatch in the trenches like that. 

     

     

    1. 1st Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 05:01
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 69 yards from NYG 30 to NE 1. 39-L.Maroney pushed ob at NE 44 for 43 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      3. 1-10-NE 44(4:52) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 39-L.Maroney [96-B.Cofield].
      4. 2-10-NE 44(4:47) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 47 for 9 yards (28-G.Wilson, 31-A.Ross).
      5. 3-1-NYG 47(4:03) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 42 for 5 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      6. 1-10-NYG 42(3:30) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to 10-J.Gaffney.
      7. 2-10-NYG 42(3:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 35 for 7 yards (55-K.Mitchell, 58-A.Pierce).
      8. 3-3-NYG 35(2:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 27 for 8 yards (35-K.Dockery, 28-G.Wilson).
      9. 1-10-NYG 27(2:04) 44-H.Evans up the middle to NYG 25 for 2 yards (98-F.Robbins).
      10. 2-8-NYG 25(1:24) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 17 for 8 yards (29-S.Madison).
      11. 1-10-NYG 17(:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 84-B.Watson.
      12. 2-10-NYG 17(:32) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk.
      13. 3-10-NYG 17(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 84-B.Watson [92-M.Strahan]. PENALTY on NYG-58-A.Pierce, Defensive Pass Interference, 16 yards, enforced at NYG 17 - No Play.
      14. 1-1-NYG 1(:23) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NYG 1 for no gain (91-J.Tuck).
      15. END QUARTER 1 Super Bowl record-only 2 drives in 1st quarter
      16. NYG 3    NE 7    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:04
    2. 2nd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 2-1-NYG 1(15:00) NE 50-Vrabel eligible. 39-L.Maroney right guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
      3. 0-0-NYG 23-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      4. New England Patriots at 11:53
      5. 1-10-NE 33(11:53) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NE 41 for 8 yards (93-J.Alford).
      6. 2-2-NE 41(11:11) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 42 for 1 yard (72-O.Umenyiora).
      7. 3-1-NE 42(10:43) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to NE 40 for -2 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 92-M.Strahan).
      8. 4-3-NE 40(10:04) 6-C.Hanson punts 40 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters to NYG 36 for 16 yards (58-P.Woods).
      9. New England Patriots at 08:35
      10. 1-10-NE 30(8:35) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 30 for no gain (91-J.Tuck, 55-K.Mitchell).
      11. 2-10-NE 30(7:55) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 23 for -7 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 3-17-NE 23(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck).
      13. 4-24-NE 16(6:54) 6-C.Hanson punts 41 yards to NYG 43, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 43 for no gain (52-E.Alexander).
      14. New YorkNew England Patriots at 01:47
      15. 1-10-NE 11(1:47) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss [28-G.Wilson].
      16. 2-10-NE 11(1:41) 39-L.Maroney right end to NE 8 for -3 yards (91-J.Tuck, 72-O.Umenyiora).
      17. Timeout #1 by NYG at 01:35.
      18. 3-13-NE 8(1:35) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NE 26 for 18 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NE 26(1:11) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss [91-J.Tuck].
      20. 2-10-NE 26(1:05) (Shotgun) 33-K.Faulk up the middle to NE 41 for 15 yards (92-M.Strahan). PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 33.
      21. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:59.
      22. 2-13-NE 23(:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 32 for 9 yards (98-F.Robbins, 91-J.Tuck).
      23. 3-4-NE 32(:35) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 38 for 6 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      24. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:28.
      25. 1-10-NE 38(:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss pushed ob at NYG 44 for 18 yards (35-K.Dockery).
      26. 1-10-NYG 44(:22) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 49 for -7 yards (91-J.Tuck). FUMBLES (91-J.Tuck), RECOVERED by NYG-72-O.Umenyiora at NE 49. 72-O.Umenyiora to NE 49 for no gain (67-D.Koppen).
      27. 3rd Quarter
      1. New England Patriots at 15:00
      2. 9-L.Tynes kicks 65 yards from NYG 30 to NE 5. 39-L.Maroney to NE 21 for 16 yards (57-C.Blackburn, 43-M.Johnson).
      3. 1-10-NE 21(14:53) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 36 for 15 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 55-K.Mitchell) [92-M.Strahan].
      4. 1-10-NE 36(14:16) 39-L.Maroney up the middle to NE 43 for 7 yards (37-Ja.Butler, 28-G.Wilson).
      5. 2-3-NE 43(13:41) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk (92-M.Strahan).
      6. 3-3-NE 43(13:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NE 48 for 5 yards (43-M.Johnson, 55-K.Mitchell) [72-O.Umenyiora].
      7. 1-10-NE 48(13:02) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 46 for -2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      8. 2-12-NE 46(12:18) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 47 for 7 yards (58-A.Pierce, 55-K.Mitchell).
      9. 3-5-NYG 47(11:38) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 44 for 3 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      10. 4-2-NYG 44(11:07) (Punt formation) 6-C.Hanson punts 31 yards to NYG 13, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters ran ob at NYG 14 for 1 yard. New England challenged the too many players on field ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Punt formation) PENALTY on NYG-57-C.Blackburn, Defensive 12 On-field, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 44 - No Play.
      11. 1-10-NYG 39(11:00) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 39-L.Maroney to NYG 35 for 4 yards (98-F.Robbins, 58-A.Pierce). NE 12-Brady 84 career Super Bowl completions, NFL record.
      12. 2-6-NYG 35(10:25) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 35 - No Play.
      13. 2-11-NYG 40(10:08) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 42 for -2 yards (31-A.Ross, 23-C.Webster).
      14. 3-13-NYG 42(9:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 28 for 14 yards (28-G.Wilson, 58-A.Pierce).
      15. 1-10-NYG 28(8:42) 39-L.Maroney right guard to NYG 28 for no gain (53-R.Torbor).
      16. 2-10-NYG 28(8:10) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 88-K.Brady to NYG 25 for 3 yards (53-R.Torbor).
      17. 3-7-NYG 25(7:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NYG 31 for -6 yards (92-M.Strahan).
      18. 4-13-NYG 31(6:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 10-J.Gaffney.
      19. New YorkNew England Patriots at 03:04
      20. 1-10-NE 10(3:04) PENALTY on NE-84-B.Watson, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NE 10 - No Play.
      21. 1-15-NE 5(3:04) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 18-D.Stallworth.
      22. 2-15-NE 5(3:01) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NE 21 for 16 yards (28-G.Wilson).
      23. 1-10-NE 21(2:19) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to NE 30 for 9 yards (96-B.Cofield, 55-K.Mitchell).
      24. 2-1-NE 30(1:47) 39-L.Maroney left end to NE 32 for 2 yards (72-O.Umenyiora).
      25. 1-10-NE 32(1:03) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NYG 49 for 19 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      26. 1-10-NYG 49(:17) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker.
      27. 2-10-NYG 49(:14) PENALTY on NE-72-M.Light, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NYG 49 - No Play.
      28. 2-15-NE 46(:14) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 81-R.Moss.
      29. 3-15-NE 46(:06) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to NYG 45 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      30. END QUARTER 3
    3. 4th Quarter
      1. New England Patriots continues ...
      2. 4-6-NYG 45(15:00) 6-C.Hanson punts 45 yards to end zone, Center-66-L.Paxton, Touchback.
      3. New England Patriots at 11:05
      4. 9-L.Tynes kicks 67 yards from NYG 30 to NE 3. 39-L.Maroney to NE 32 for 29 yards (58-A.Pierce, 59-G.Wilkinson). PENALTY on NE-71-R.Hochstein, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at NE 21.
      5. 1-10-NE 11(10:59) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 28 for 17 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      6. 1-10-NE 28(10:26) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 31 for 3 yards (29-S.Madison).
      7. 2-7-NE 31(9:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss.
      8. 3-7-NE 31(9:36) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 83-W.Welker (29-S.Madison).
      9. 4-7-NE 31(9:30) 6-C.Hanson punts 49 yards to NYG 20, Center-66-L.Paxton. 25-R.McQuarters pushed ob at NYG 29 for 9 yards (53-L.Izzo).
      10. New England Patriots at 07:54
      11. 1-10-NE 20(7:54) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 25 for 5 yards (55-K.Mitchell).
      12. 2-5-NE 25(7:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NE 35 for 10 yards (23-C.Webster).
      13. 1-10-NE 35(6:39) 39-L.Maroney left end pushed ob at NE 44 for 9 yards (37-Ja.Butler).
      14. 2-1-NE 44(6:14) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NYG 43 for 13 yards (58-A.Pierce, 37-Ja.Butler).
      15. 1-10-NYG 43(5:27) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 33-K.Faulk pushed ob at NYG 39 for 4 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      16. 2-6-NYG 39(5:01) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NYG 29 for 10 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NE 83-Welker 11th reception of game, ties Super Bowl record (Dan Ross, Jerry Rice & Deion Branch)
      17. 1-10-NYG 29(4:15) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 18-D.Stallworth.
      18. 2-10-NYG 29(4:12) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to NYG 18 for 11 yards (58-A.Pierce).
      19. 1-10-NYG 18(3:31) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 33-K.Faulk to NYG 6 for 12 yards (37-Ja.Butler). NYG-98-F.Robbins was injured during the play.
      20. 1-6-NYG 6(2:55) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 81-R.Moss.
      21. 2-6-NYG 6(2:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker. NYG-37-Ja.Butler was injured during the play.
      22. 3-6-NYG 6(2:45) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
      23. 3-S.Gostkowski extra point is GOOD, Center-66-L.Paxton, Holder-6-C.Hanson.
      24. NYG 10    NE 14    Plays: 12    Possession: 5:12
      25. New England Patriots at 00:35
      26. 9-L.Tynes kicks 61 yards from NYG 30 to NE 9. 39-L.Maroney to NE 26 for 17 yards (51-Z.DeOssie, 57-C.Blackburn).
      27. 1-10-NE 26(:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep right to 10-J.Gaffney.
      28. 2-10-NE 26(:25) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady sacked at NE 16 for -10 yards (93-J.Alford).
      29. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:19.
      30. 3-20-NE 16(:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (23-C.Webster).
      31. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:10.
      32. 4-20-NE 16(:10) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 81-R.Moss (28-G.Wilson).

     




     

    After looking at the play sequences , a few things jump out to me.    After the 1st 15 plays ,  The patriots offense has become predictable.     Except for a few token runs and a couple obvious running situations (goal to go at the 1)...  the patriots have established that they are going to throw the ball as their offensive strategy.  What happens next series...?   Brady is sacked twice.

    Another thing that jumped out was how 2 dubious holding calls negated big yards against the Patriots...  Holding call on Faulk run  (minus25 yards)  and holding call on kick return (minus 21 yards).  Remember a lot of holding by Giants that wasn't called.

    The predictability continued leading to sack-fumble. at end of half.

    3rd quarter...  more of the same but you also see why and how they are trapped in this offense since they are having some success.  You also see a run mixed in  for 7 yatrds.  What happens next... ?   repeat run on next 1st down... stuffed.  (predictable tendency)  Then fortunate penalty and a stuffed run on subsequent 1st down   (brilliant)  then the sack and a 'go-for- it "on 4th and 13...?   WEird after previously punting on 4th and 2.

    So analyzing this sequence shows a profound beligerence and arrogance that this shotgun passing offense will win the day despite the sacks and failures to that point.  this arrogance had been built up over the 18-0 season...  but the ignorant predictability continued.  Running only on 1st downs...  no variety of plays  ...  just beligerent vanilla offense.  ending with a failed arrogant 4th and 13...  Predictabilty contnued on next drive with another 1st down run and follow up run in short yardage situation...  then punt...


    4th quarter...   YOu have a touchdown drive of all passes except for one 1st down run...  completely predictable but ultimately effective since TD was scored.

    Just think how many points could have or would have been scored by an imaginative unpredictable offense ...

    There is no way to look at this play sequence other than as a total failure of predictability and arrogance.   A couple penalties and a teed up pass rush derails the most prolific offense in the history of the league becuase it had no imagination to evolve away from its beligerence.  Also on display was the failed linear thinking (first down run worked so run it again the next 1st down....WRONG) .  Nowhere to be SEEN was ANY healthy mixing of runs, passes and other types of plays that could have produced more consistent drives and ultimately points.

    Thanks for posting this so everyone can finally see it clearly .

     

     

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Remind me again: Bill O'Brien

    In response to coolade2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    After looking at the play sequences , a few things jump out to me.    After the 1st 15 plays ,  The patriots offense has become predictable.     Except for a few token runs and a couple obvious running situations (goal to go at the 1)...  the patriots have established that they are going to throw the ball as their offensive strategy.  What happens next series...?   Brady is sacked twice.

    The drive right before that, though, was a three and out, where two of the three plays were runs.  They then run for no gain to start the series where the two sacks occur.  On 2nd and 10, I'm not sure a pass is a bad call even if it is somewhat expected and it's pretty much required on third and 10.  Ideally, your O line can beat the rush on at least one of those two downs. 

    Another thing that jumped out was how 2 dubious holding calls negated big yards against the Patriots...  Holding call on Faulk run  (minus25 yards)  and holding call on kick return (minus 21 yards).  Remember a lot of holding by Giants that wasn't called.

    The predictability continued leading to sack-fumble. at end of half.

    That last drive of the half started with 1:47 left and on NE's 11 yard line.  You just can't run a lot with 90 yards to goand less than two minutes left.  Predictability is better than frittering away the time with runs. 

    3rd quarter...  more of the same but you also see why and how they are trapped in this offense since they are having some success.  You also see a run mixed in  for 7 yatrds.  What happens next... ?   repeat run on next 1st down... stuffed.  (predictable tendency)  Then fortunate penalty and a stuffed run on subsequent 1st down   (brilliant)  then the sack and a 'go-for- it "on 4th and 13...?   WEird after previously punting on 4th and 2.

    I'm not seeing any problem with the play calling here.  Are you suggesting they never should run on two first downs in a row?  That seems a little odd.  Most teams run a lot on first down.  The went on 4th and 13 because they were on the 31.  The weren't confident about a 48 yard FG and a punt wouldn't get them much. The 4 and 2 they were on the 44.  Punting made more sense from there.  Again, the situational play calling makes sense. 

     

    So analyzing this sequence shows a profound beligerence and arrogance that this shotgun passing offense will win the day despite the sacks and failures to that point.  this arrogance had been built up over the 18-0 season...  but the ignorant predictability continued.  Running only on 1st downs...  no variety of plays  ...  just beligerent vanilla offense.  ending with a failed arrogant 4th and 13...  Predictabilty contnued on next drive with another 1st down run and follow up run in short yardage situation...  then punt...

    They unfortunately weren't in a lot of great running situations.  And the 4 and 13 isn't arrogant.  It's good situational play calling from the 31 yard line.  Honestly, I feel like you're just making stuff up here.  Look at all the second and longs (and third and longs) they are in.  That's what dictates so much passing.  Running a lot on 2nd and long is not usually a way to win games. 


    4th quarter...   YOu have a touchdown drive of all passes except for one 1st down run...  completely predictable but ultimately effective since TD was scored.

    Maybe they should have done more of this.  It worked!

    Just think how many points could have or would have been scored by an imaginative unpredictable offense ...

    Really what they needed was better blocking from the O line.  That's what would have led to more points.  Calling more runs from second and long wouldn't help. 

    There is no way to look at this play sequence other than as a total failure of predictability and arrogance.   A couple penalties and a teed up pass rush derails the most prolific offense in the history of the league becuase it had no imagination to evolve away from its beligerence.  Also on display was the failed linear thinking (first down run worked so run it again the next 1st down....WRONG) .  Nowhere to be SEEN was ANY healthy mixing of runs, passes and other types of plays that could have produced more consistent drives and ultimately points.

    Thanks for posting this so everyone can finally see it clearly .

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

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