Secondary...could it be coaching?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Secondary...could it be coaching?

    The secondary has turned over since 2007 or so but certain patterns are consistant.

    3rd and long, we know the pass is coming but cannot stop it.

    coveraged turned to the reciever not to the ball.

    safeties a step too slow in helping out.

    CB's not keeping the receivers in front of them.

    Promising players regressing.


    Could it be the coaches do not focus enough on proper technique? Teach the wrong technique?

    I actually do not know the anwer to this, still could be not acquiring talent in this area and the positional coching could be fine...but when players turn over and the same stuff keeps happening makes me wonder. Opinions?

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from AFNAV130. Show AFNAV130's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to bobbysu's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    All I want to know is what are their Credentials as to why they are Coaching the DB's. Last year we led the league in longest passes allowed, in fact I think we set a record. This year we are going to break it.

    There has to be more to it than talent, and who we Drafted.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it may be something to do with it.  They don't know how to turn for the ball all of a sudden? Can't keep guys in front of you as a safety? This is basic DB principles that they don't need a coach to tell them.  At the NFL level, its more about refining a DBs techinique than it is teaching how to be a basic defender.  Why have they forgotten how to do this? That is a big question.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to AFNAV130's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bobbysu's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    All I want to know is what are their Credentials as to why they are Coaching the DB's. Last year we led the league in longest passes allowed, in fact I think we set a record. This year we are going to break it.

    There has to be more to it than talent, and who we Drafted.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it may be something to do with it.  They don't know how to turn for the ball all of a sudden? Can't keep guys in front of you as a safety? This is basic DB principles that they don't need a coach to tell them.  At the NFL level, its more about refining a DBs techinique than it is teaching how to be a basic defender.  Why have they forgotten how to do this? That is a big question.

    [/QUOTE]


    Players at every level need to do basic repetative drills to re-enforce body memory of the right moves so it becomes automatic..ask anyone in martial arts. Some 'higher level' coaches do NOT do this, asuming the players are proffesional enough to take care of it themselves.

    Most 'professionals' should or do/commit to this themselves...but I have heard so many stories how this one pro or another is seen out on the field practicing fundementals on their own like it is the exception ..not the rule, so I wonder, does the average player in the NFL  practice it in their own time? or  do only a select few practice technique and repetitions on their own.

    So, in this case do the DB coaches give their players too much credit? Are they trying to fix something that should have been worked on by each player in the offseason? or is it their job to run the players through basic drills?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    Hire Ty Law

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from AFNAV130. Show AFNAV130's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to AFNAV130's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bobbysu's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    All I want to know is what are their Credentials as to why they are Coaching the DB's. Last year we led the league in longest passes allowed, in fact I think we set a record. This year we are going to break it.

    There has to be more to it than talent, and who we Drafted.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it may be something to do with it.  They don't know how to turn for the ball all of a sudden? Can't keep guys in front of you as a safety? This is basic DB principles that they don't need a coach to tell them.  At the NFL level, its more about refining a DBs techinique than it is teaching how to be a basic defender.  Why have they forgotten how to do this? That is a big question.

    [/QUOTE]


    Players at every level need to do basic repetative drills to re-enforce body memory of the right moves so it becomes automatic..ask anyone in martial arts. Some 'higher level' coaches do NOT do this, asuming the players are proffesional enough to take care of it themselves.

    Most 'professionals' should or do/commit to this themselves...but I have heard so many stories how this one pro or another is seen out on the field practicing fundementals on their own like it is the exception ..not the rule, so I wonder..the average player in the NFL..if the coach does not force them to practice something do they infact practice it in their own time?..or only do the best of the best practice technique and repetitions on their own.

    So, in this case do the DB coaches give their players too much credit? Are they trying to fix something that should have been worked on by each player in the offseason? or is it their job to run the players through basic drills?

    [/QUOTE]

     

    Not much there I can disupte for sure. The coaches are there to ensure they don't go down this road, but its been a problem for certainly all year this year and a lot last. How many picks would they have gotten this year? I don't see how Belichick would allow these guys to do that.  Sit around. Nevermind Brady. How insane must it be for them  to see these DBs that most people agree aren't playing the DB position properly. Theres is something going on, and I'm afraid its not neccesarily a coaching problem.  It may be mental.  What they need to do is fire guys till they get guys who play right.  What woud you prefer, these guys who can't locate a football in the air at all, or a guy who gives up a reception every time, but at least turned and took a shot at a deflection or pick?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from sporter81. Show sporter81's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    It probably is coaching to an extent but ever since guys like Law, Harrison, and Samuel left they have been bad back there.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to rameakap's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Hire Ty Law

    [/QUOTE]

    I was thinking the same thing.  Give Law a consultant gig.  As much as we're being merciless on the secondary right now, I think the bright spot is that the coverage is there for the most part.  They aren't playing the ball in the air.  Maybe Law can teach them a few vet tricks.  I know it won't happen, they won't hire Law, but for some reason it seems like the players aren't executing what seems to be pretty fundamental coverage technique.  It's almost like the coaches are telling the DBs to face guard and react to the movements of the WRs rather than looking for the ball.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from AFNAV130. Show AFNAV130's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to CablesWyndBairn's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to rameakap's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Hire Ty Law

    [/QUOTE]

    I was thinking the same thing.  Give Law a consultant gig.  As much as we're being merciless on the secondary right now, I think the bright spot is that the coverage is there for the most part.  They aren't playing the ball in the air.  Maybe Law can teach them a few vet tricks.  I know it won't happen, they won't hire Law, but for some reason it seems like the players aren't executing what seems to be pretty fundamental coverage technique.  It's almost like the coaches are telling the DBs to face guard and react to the movements of the WRs rather than looking for the ball.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure seems that way. And face guarding is a PI. Thats the rule. So basically they are saying you will get a PI every time. Its horrible. I could play DB better than these clowns. I'd give up a TD everytime, but I'd play it right. If I were them and the coach said face guard, I'd say bleep off, thats not what got me drafted. 

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from sporter81. Show sporter81's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    I like the idea of bringing in a guy like Law to help but it isn't going to happen, at least not this year. What we have is what we have. Lets hope they can improve and learn from these mistakes. Dont know if they will though, it continues to happen over and over again.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    I dont think it is coaching. I think it is lack of talent to the type of defense the Pats wish to play. I do think that McCourty and Wilson can be very good players in this system. Wilson needs experience, and that is going to result in some blown plays while he gets the experience.

    Gregory is a 3rd or 4th S imo

    Arrington is a 3rd or 4th CB imo

    Ras is similar to Asante. He is going to gamble, jump routes and make plays. But he is also going to get beat on double moves and not hold the edge. He will be a mediocre open field tackler. It seems the Pats dont want that type of CB play in this defense.

    Dennard is very short, and even in the best of coverage, he is not going to win a lot of 1 on 1 battles

    Ebner is a rugby player

    Moore shouldnt be on the team imo, I had prefered Ihedigbo

    Chung is the wild card. So far he seems to have regressed from his rookie year. He looks like he is going to be a tweener. Not big enough to be a physical S, and not athletic enough to be a traffic cop back there.

    I am a firm believer that if the drafted talent is  lacking, that falls on BB

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to patsbandwagonsince76's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The secondary has turned over since 2007 or so but certain patterns are consistant.

    3rd and long, we know the pass is coming but cannot stop it.

    coveraged turned to the reciever not to the ball.

    safeties a step too slow in helping out.

    CB's not keeping the receivers in front of them.

    Promising players regressing.


    Could it be the coaches do not focus enough on proper technique? Teach the wrong technique?

    I actually do not know the anwer to this, still could be not acquiring talent in this area and the positional coching could be fine...but when players turn over and the same stuff keeps happening makes me wonder. Opinions?

    [/QUOTE]

     

    It's a fair question. Philly let their D Co-Ordinator go for far less than how are D has performed under Matt for the last 3 seasons.

    Business is business, nothing personal, except of course if your Wes...............

    http://www.boston.com/community/forums/sports/patriots/on-the-front-burner/4-maybe-5-years-of-defensive-coaching-at-best/100/6405750

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrnkBnhm. Show FrnkBnhm's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    Bill cannot fire a coach, that would be admitting he hired the wrong person...

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to sporter81's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I like the idea of bringing in a guy like Law to help but it isn't going to happen, at least not this year. What we have is what we have. Lets hope they can improve and learn from these mistakes. Dont know if they will though, it continues to happen over and over again.

    [/QUOTE]

    Just because a player was talented, does not mean he would be a good coach. TLaw and BB did not end well. There is certainly a respect between the 2, but their working days together are over.

    Besides, Ty has too much money to work as hard as a coach needs to work...

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from manowar333. Show manowar333's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to AFNAV130's comment:


    Sure seems that way. And face guarding is a PI. Thats the rule. So basically they are saying you will get a PI every time. Its horrible. I could play DB better than these clowns. I'd give up a TD everytime, but I'd play it right. If I were them and the coach said face guard, I'd say bleep off, thats not what got me drafted. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Uh, sorry, but faceguarding is NOT against the rules unless you make contact with the receiver.  There is NO rule against it... problem is that the Pats DB's aren't even good at that.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from csylvia79. Show csylvia79's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    http://sports.yahoo.com/news/pats-secondary-struggling-3rd-straight-214517248--nfl.html

    FOXBOROUGH, Mass. (AP) -- The New England Patriots keep drafting defensive backs in the early rounds. One of these years they may find one who lives up to that status.

    For the third straight season, the Patriots have one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL, specializing in allowing big plays.

    Clearly, their secondary is a primary problem.

    ''We have to play better in the secondary and this team will be better,'' said cornerback Devin McCourty, a first-round pick in 2010.

    At Seattle last Sunday, New England gave up touchdown passes by rookie Russell Wilson of 50 yards to Doug Baldwin and 46 to Sidney Rice. A pass to Golden Tate gained 51 yards, and safetyPatrick Chung, a second-round choice in 2009, was called for a 40-yard pass interference penalty. Rice's touchdown with 1:18 left and Steven Hauschka's extra point gave the Seahawks a 24-23 win.

    The long completions are becoming painfully commonplace.

    The Patriots have allowed 13 of 30 yards or more, a big reason they're just 3-3. Tom Brady has thrown only five passes for that distance in the six games.

    Five of the six quarterbacks the Patriots have faced have completed passes for at least 30 yards. Wilson, Peyton Manning, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Joe Flacco did it three times and Jake Locker once.

    ''Obviously, you never want to give up big plays, regardless what phase of the game it is,'' said Matthew Slater, a wide receiver and special teams captain who was forced into action at safety last season by injuries. ''Big plays are momentum plays so, in that respect, a lot of us have the responsibility not to give up the big play and to make the big play.''

    The Patriots have tried plenty of defensive backs, hoping they can fulfill that responsibility.

    They've drafted seven of them in the first two rounds in the last six years. Only four remain. Is that because coach Bill Belichick's defensive system is tougher to learn than others or because the three no longer with the team weren't as good as Belichick thought when he drafted them?

    Those three - Brandon Meriweather, Terrence Wheatley and Darius Butler - haven't done well after leaving the Patriots. And cornerback Ras-I Dowling, slowed by injuries after being taken in the second round last year, hasn't lived up to expectations this year.

    The turnover in the secondary has been constant.

    Of the 10 defensive backs who played for the Patriots in 2009, four didn't play for them the next year. Of the nine they used in 2010, five were gone in 2011. They tried 13 different players in the secondary in 2011 and eight are no longer with the team. That includes James Ihedigbo, who started 12 of the 16 games he played.

    None of the current defensive backs can be counted on week after week.

    McCourty made the Pro Bowl as a rookie but has been plagued by defensive pass interference calls this year. Starting cornerback Kyle Arrington tied for the NFL lead with seven interceptions last season, but was replaced by rookie Alfonzo Dennard, a seventh-rounder, after allowing the 50-yard touchdown to Baldwin on Seattle's second series.

    The other two regular starters, safeties Steve Gregory and Chung, have been nicked up. Gregory missed the last two games with a hip injury and Chung left Sunday's game after hurting his shoulder.

    So on the decisive touchdown pass to Rice, the Patriots used only four defensive backs with rookie draft picks Tavon Wilson (second round) and Nate Ebner (sixth) at safety. Rice got by Wilson and Ebner came over too late to help.

    ''Early in your career, everything's a learning experience and they're getting plenty of learning experiences now,'' said Gregory, in his first year as a Patriot after signing as a free agent from San Diego. ''But they're working really hard at trying to become better football players.''

    Wilson put the blame on himself.

    ''I'm held accountable just like everybody else on this team,'' he said. ''I don't expect them to take no slack on me because I'm a rookie. I've got to make the play.''

    But why didn't Belichick put more defensive backs on the field to help the rookies, knowing that the Seahawks would pass with little time left and a six-point deficit?

    ''I think we had enough people back there on paper,'' he said. ''I don't think there was anything wrong with the call. I think we could have played it better, which includes coaching it to be played better. ... We would have had to cover it if we were in something else as well.''

    The Patriots could catch a break next Sunday when they face the New York Jets. Mark Sanchez has had a tough season and threw for just 82 yards in last Sunday's 35-9 win over the Indianapolis Colts.

    The way New England's secondary is playing, that number could be much higher.

    ''I have played some safety and it is much harder than it may look,'' Slater said. ''We believe in every last one of them, wouldn't want any other guy back there than the guys that have been back there, and we stand behind them 100 percent.''

    It's the receivers who get behind them who are causing the problems.

    ---

    Online: http://pro32.ap.org/poll and http://twitter.com/AP-NFL

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I dont think it is coaching. I think it is lack of talent to the type of defense the Pats wish to play. I do think that McCourty and Wilson can be very good players in this system. Wilson needs experience, and that is going to result in some blown plays while he gets the experience.

    Gregory is a 3rd or 4th S imo

    Arrington is a 3rd or 4th CB imo

    Ras is similar to Asante. He is going to gamble, jump routes and make plays. But he is also going to get beat on double moves and not hold the edge. He will be a mediocre open field tackler. It seems the Pats dont want that type of CB play in this defense.

    Dennard is very short, and even in the best of coverage, he is not going to win a lot of 1 on 1 battles

    Ebner is a rugby player

    Moore shouldnt be on the team imo, I had prefered Ihedigbo

    Chung is the wild card. So far he seems to have regressed from his rookie year. He looks like he is going to be a tweener. Not big enough to be a physical S, and not athletic enough to be a traffic cop back there.

    I am a firm believer that if the drafted talent is  lacking, that falls on BB

    [/QUOTE]

    This seems like a reasonable assessment to me.  Moore, I think, made the team over Ihedigbo because he had the potential to play corner.  Dig was just too slow for that and I think with Gregory, Wilson, Chung, and Ebner at safety, Dig was dispensible.  He and Ebner were probably the two BB had to choose between, but Ebner maybe has more upside potential (though also more bust potential).  Dig is known commodity, but he'll never be more than a marginal starter and special teamer. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    SIMPLE - yes the coaching of the secondary is HORRIBLE. McCourty and Arrington and even Chung are better than their play. The entire secondary is being told to do things which result in truly bad play. Fire the responsible coach. Tonight.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Spetznaz24. Show Spetznaz24's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    It is not the coaching.  The players that Patriots released have done nothing for other teams,  most aren't even in the league.

     

    Terrence Wheathley - 2nd round pick!  Did he even make ONE play for the Pats?


    Wilhite?

    Butler?

    Meriweather? 

    Chung?

    McCourty?

    Arrington?

    Deltha O'Neal?

    Shawn Springs?

     

     

    Where is the talent on the secondary the past few years?  What we have back there is absolute garbage and the whole league knows it. Thats why a rookie was launching deep bombs all day on sunday!

     

    Do you realize we had  Nate Ebner and Tavon Wilson as the Safeties with the game on the line. Think about that for a second.  This is the same Nate Ebner who doesn't have alot of experience playing this position, even at high school or college level!
     As for Wilson , he was projected to be a 7th round pick or to go undrafted, but BB took him in the 2nd. People who saw him play in Illionois have all said he isn't a coverage safety and was burned all year long.


    Really? Is this the best BB can do,  Ebner and Wilson?  With the game on the line? Let that sink in for a minute.

     

    Belichick knows the secondary is pathetic and therefore plays the most vanilla defense in the NFL.  No corner blitzes, no safety blitzes, no exotic linebacker blitzes.   I heard the secondary has given up the most pass plays of 20 yards in the NFL by far.  


    You can't play defense with a garbage secondary like that. It has become absolutely laughable to watch  week  in and week out.  It is absolutely mind boggling that the "defensive genius  Bill Belichick" cannot find  ONE decent cornerback or Safety since 2005! 7 years and dozens of draft picks,  and not one decent playmaker. Can it get any worse than this?


    The last decent player in the secondary the Pats selected was James Sanders and BB released him. 


    I mentioned in the other thread that we might as well put Mickey Mouse in charge of drafting Safeties and CB's.  Chances of finding a decent player cannot be worse than they are if BB and his coaches are picking.

     

     

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to Spetznaz24's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It is not the coaching.  The players that Patriots released have done nothing for other teams,  most aren't even in the league.

     

    Terrence Wheathley - 2nd round pick!  Did he even make ONE play for the Pats?


    Wilhite?

    Butler?

    Meriweather? 

    Chung?

    McCourty?

    Arrington?

    Deltha O'Neal?

    Shawn Springs?

     

     

    Where is the talent on the secondary the past few years?  What we have back there is absolute garbage and the whole league knows it. Thats why a rookie was launching deep bombs all day on sunday!

     

    Do you realize we had  Nate Ebner and Tavon Wilson as the Safeties with the game on the line. Think about that for a second.  This is the same Nate Ebner who doesn't have alot of experience playing this position, even at high school or college level!
     As for Wilson , he was projected to be a 7th round pick or to go undrafted, but BB took him in the 2nd. People who saw him play in Illionois have all said he isn't a coverage safety and was burned all year long.


    Really? Is this the best BB can do,  Ebner and Wilson?  With the game on the line? Let that sink in for a minute.

     

    Belichick knows the secondary is pathetic and therefore plays the most vanilla defense in the NFL.  No corner blitzes, no safety blitzes, no exotic linebacker blitzes.   I heard the secondary has given up the most pass plays of 20 yards in the NFL by far.  


    You can't play defense with a garbage secondary like that. It has become absolutely laughable to watch  week  in and week out.  It is absolutely mind boggling that the "defensive genius  Bill Belichick" cannot find  ONE decent cornerback or Safety since 2005! 7 years and dozens of draft picks,  and not one decent playmaker. Can it get any worse than this?


    The last decent player in the secondary the Pats selected was James Sanders and BB released him. 


    I mentioned in the other thread that we might as well put Mickey Mouse in charge of drafting Safeties and CB's.  Chances of finding a decent player cannot be worse than they are if BB and his coaches are picking.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    This is sad but true. No way ebner at least should be playing safetY with the game on the line . He shouldn't even be on a football field at this point. Does everyone re,ember the missed block he didn't make during the cards game that set up a score? The lid has potential but he like demps should have been shelved until next year.

    I have posted numerous times on our troubles drafting in the secondary. What is even more troubling are the secondary players that were drafted 3-10 picks after ours who have led productive careers to date. 

    the issue we have is complex;

    1. We don't hit on FA talent

    2. We are bad evaluating college secondary players

    3. We are bad developing young secondary players

    4. I am not convinced our zone system is best for who we have. I think the guys we currently have are better suited to play man coverage.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to Spetznaz24's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It is not the coaching.  The players that Patriots released have done nothing for other teams,  most aren't even in the league.

     

    Terrence Wheathley - 2nd round pick!  Did he even make ONE play for the Pats?


    Wilhite?

    Butler?

    Meriweather? 

    Chung?

    McCourty?

    Arrington?

    Deltha O'Neal?

    Shawn Springs?

     

     

    Where is the talent on the secondary the past few years?  What we have back there is absolute garbage and the whole league knows it. Thats why a rookie was launching deep bombs all day on sunday!

     

    Do you realize we had  Nate Ebner and Tavon Wilson as the Safeties with the game on the line. Think about that for a second.  This is the same Nate Ebner who doesn't have alot of experience playing this position, even at high school or college level!
     As for Wilson , he was projected to be a 7th round pick or to go undrafted, but BB took him in the 2nd. People who saw him play in Illionois have all said he isn't a coverage safety and was burned all year long.


    Really? Is this the best BB can do,  Ebner and Wilson?  With the game on the line? Let that sink in for a minute.

     

    Belichick knows the secondary is pathetic and therefore plays the most vanilla defense in the NFL.  No corner blitzes, no safety blitzes, no exotic linebacker blitzes.   I heard the secondary has given up the most pass plays of 20 yards in the NFL by far.  


    You can't play defense with a garbage secondary like that. It has become absolutely laughable to watch  week  in and week out.  It is absolutely mind boggling that the "defensive genius  Bill Belichick" cannot find  ONE decent cornerback or Safety since 2005! 7 years and dozens of draft picks,  and not one decent playmaker. Can it get any worse than this?


    The last decent player in the secondary the Pats selected was James Sanders and BB released him. 


    I mentioned in the other thread that we might as well put Mickey Mouse in charge of drafting Safeties and CB's.  Chances of finding a decent player cannot be worse than they are if BB and his coaches are picking.

     

     Actually Wheatley made some nice plays against the clots until he broke his wrist for the 4th time.  I agree with everything you said but have had a minute to calm down,  intead of being angry at the D.  (which I have been for years now and have no problem voicing that).

    This actually occured to me 3 yrs ago when I was actually defending the D but I don't believe I ever voiced it.  Maybe now is a good time.

    I think the problem starts in the draft. Not that the Pats are bad drafters but they consistantly pic late.  Every year people scratch their heads at some picks because they are not picking the players they want (the Beasts)

    The Pats pick to fit their scheme which apparently is a difficult one.  There's really no sure way to pick players because they have to anticipate them fitting their scheme. 

    There are very few players who have the brains, versility and athletic ability that every one covets especially late in the rounds.  So knowing that their scheme is difficult and that every one with all three traits are already gone, they have to  say, ok, which trait is most important. They choose brains first and versatility second and beastiality last.  They need the brains to suceed and the versatility to play different positions (special teams)  and alot of times the quys that are left have the athletic ability but none of those other traits.

    You can't teach brains and you either have the ability to be versital or not and they have the coaches to bring out the talent and make the most of their athletic ability. 

    I think this is sound under the circumstance but the problem is that this takes time.  Players like Rodney didn't start out being great but he had the ability to adapt and that is what the problem is IMO.

    I think a lot of what is happening is you got some guys that are smart and versital  and have some atletic ability, but are used to a completely different way of doing things and are having to think too much and are getting discouraged when they fail.     In other words, it's mental.  Once you get in that situation, it takes a lot to get out of it and it may actually ruin you for life.  By the time this has happened, they are either mentally strong or not. If they give up, the coaches really have no other choice but to give up too and I think this is a big reason we see a lot of potentially good players fall off cliffs, never to be seen again.

    Are they asking too much of these guys?  IDK , but the hardest thing to evaluate is mental toughness,  You never know until you get there.  Just ask Tom Brady.

    BTW< this in no way  is making an excuse for the state of the D, but I can see why it's happened.  Now Change it Bill!!!  LOL 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:
    [QUOTE]Actually Wheatley made some nice plays against the clots until he broke his wrist for the 4th time.  I agree with everything you said but have had a minute to calm down,  intead of being angry at the D.  (which I have been for years now and have no problem voicing that).

    This actually occured to me 3 yrs ago when I was actually defending the D but I don't believe I ever voiced it.  Maybe now is a good time.

    I think the problem starts in the draft. Not that the Pats are bad drafters but they consistantly pic late.  Every year people scratch their heads at some picks because they are not picking the players they want (the Beasts)

    The Pats pick to fit their scheme which apparently is a difficult one.  There's really no sure way to pick players because they have to anticipate them fitting their scheme. 

    There are very few players who have the brains, versility and athletic ability that every one covets especially late in the rounds.  So knowing that their scheme is difficult and that every one with all three traits are already gone, they have to  say, ok, which trait is most important. They choose brains first and versatility second and beastiality last.  They need the brains to suceed and the versatility to play different positions (special teams)  and alot of times the quys that are left have the athletic ability but none of those other traits.

    You can't teach brains and you either have the ability to be versital or not and they have the coaches to bring out the talent and make the most of their athletic ability. 

    I think this is sound under the circumstance but the problem is that this takes time.  Players like Rodney didn't start out being great but he had the ability to adapt and that is what the problem is IMO.

    I think a lot of what is happening is you got some guys that are smart and versital  and have some atletic ability, but are used to a completely different way of doing things and are having to think too much and are getting discouraged when they fail.     In other words, it's mental.  Once you get in that situation, it takes a lot to get out of it and it may actually ruin you for life.  By the time this has happened, they are either mentally strong or not. If they give up, the coaches really have no other choice but to give up too and I think this is a big reason we see a lot of potentially good players fall off cliffs, never to be seen again.

    Are they asking too much of these guys?  IDK , but the hardest thing to evaluate is mental toughness,  You never know until you get there.  Just ask Tom Brady.
    [/QUOTE]

    Good post pezz. I'm glad you shared that with us. I remember you when you were a homer like me. :o)

    The 2001, 2003 and 2004 defenses were loaded with veterans with years of NFL experience. Belichick was much more creative using exotic schemes with a lot more blitzes. This defense is too young and green for the most part to have learned a fraction of that playbook. It's been a slow process.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Secondary...could it be coaching?

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Spetznaz24's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It is not the coaching.  The players that Patriots released have done nothing for other teams,  most aren't even in the league.

     

    Terrence Wheathley - 2nd round pick!  Did he even make ONE play for the Pats?


    Wilhite?

    Butler?

    Meriweather? 

    Chung?

    McCourty?

    Arrington?

    Deltha O'Neal?

    Shawn Springs?

     

     

    Where is the talent on the secondary the past few years?  What we have back there is absolute garbage and the whole league knows it. Thats why a rookie was launching deep bombs all day on sunday!

     

    Do you realize we had  Nate Ebner and Tavon Wilson as the Safeties with the game on the line. Think about that for a second.  This is the same Nate Ebner who doesn't have alot of experience playing this position, even at high school or college level!
     As for Wilson , he was projected to be a 7th round pick or to go undrafted, but BB took him in the 2nd. People who saw him play in Illionois have all said he isn't a coverage safety and was burned all year long.


    Really? Is this the best BB can do,  Ebner and Wilson?  With the game on the line? Let that sink in for a minute.

     

    Belichick knows the secondary is pathetic and therefore plays the most vanilla defense in the NFL.  No corner blitzes, no safety blitzes, no exotic linebacker blitzes.   I heard the secondary has given up the most pass plays of 20 yards in the NFL by far.  


    You can't play defense with a garbage secondary like that. It has become absolutely laughable to watch  week  in and week out.  It is absolutely mind boggling that the "defensive genius  Bill Belichick" cannot find  ONE decent cornerback or Safety since 2005! 7 years and dozens of draft picks,  and not one decent playmaker. Can it get any worse than this?


    The last decent player in the secondary the Pats selected was James Sanders and BB released him. 


    I mentioned in the other thread that we might as well put Mickey Mouse in charge of drafting Safeties and CB's.  Chances of finding a decent player cannot be worse than they are if BB and his coaches are picking.

     

     Actually Wheatley made some nice plays against the clots until he broke his wrist for the 4th time.  I agree with everything you said but have had a minute to calm down,  intead of being angry at the D.  (which I have been for years now and have no problem voicing that).

    This actually occured to me 3 yrs ago when I was actually defending the D but I don't believe I ever voiced it.  Maybe now is a good time.

    I think the problem starts in the draft. Not that the Pats are bad drafters but they consistantly pic late.  Every year people scratch their heads at some picks because they are not picking the players they want (the Beasts)

    The Pats pick to fit their scheme which apparently is a difficult one.  There's really no sure way to pick players because they have to anticipate them fitting their scheme. 

    There are very few players who have the brains, versility and athletic ability that every one covets especially late in the rounds.  So knowing that their scheme is difficult and that every one with all three traits are already gone, they have to  say, ok, which trait is most important. They choose brains first and versatility second and beastiality last.  They need the brains to suceed and the versatility to play different positions (special teams)  and alot of times the quys that are left have the athletic ability but none of those other traits.

    You can't teach brains and you either have the ability to be versital or not and they have the coaches to bring out the talent and make the most of their athletic ability. 

    I think this is sound under the circumstance but the problem is that this takes time.  Players like Rodney didn't start out being great but he had the ability to adapt and that is what the problem is IMO.

    I think a lot of what is happening is you got some guys that are smart and versital  and have some atletic ability, but are used to a completely different way of doing things and are having to think too much and are getting discouraged when they fail.     In other words, it's mental.  Once you get in that situation, it takes a lot to get out of it and it may actually ruin you for life.  By the time this has happened, they are either mentally strong or not. If they give up, the coaches really have no other choice but to give up too and I think this is a big reason we see a lot of potentially good players fall off cliffs, never to be seen again.

    Are they asking too much of these guys?  IDK , but the hardest thing to evaluate is mental toughness,  You never know until you get there.  Just ask Tom Brady.

    BTW< this in no way  is making an excuse for the state of the D, but I can see why it's happened.  Now Change it Bill!!!  LOL 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Pezz...thanks for the post. I agree with most of it. The point I don't completely agree with is the reason around our poor draft selectionS. sure we have a better chance of succeeding if we pick earlier. However, as I said in last post, trader bill can trade in both directions. He himself decided time and time again to trade down. He could have packaged and moved up as well and did not. Talent was therE within decent trading range and we didn't do it. 

    Secondly, there were many productive secondary players that other teams drafted after our draft selection. Example, wetake Chung , the bills take jarius Byrd 1 pick later. There are many more examples like this. Meaning we could have taken better players than we did when we picked. This tells me there is an evaluation issue. Both of my above points compound this issue of a secondary not producing. 

     

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