The Time Has Come

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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    Frank, don't get all worked up.  Rusty was clearly into that wine early last night.  By rough count, the Pats were under center in about 15 of their first 25 plays against the Jags and about 15 of their first 28 plays against Miami.  So there was no big difference in use of the "shotgun spread" early in the game.  Later in the Miami game, with a three TD lead, the Pats ran a bit more with Brady under center as you'd expect given the situation; the Pats also had a hurry-up drive to end the first half in Jax, which also used more passing and spread formations, again as the situation called for.

    Another of Rusty's big bugaboos besides the use of the shotgun spread is the subbing of running backs.  I haven't counted who was in on every play, but against Jax in the first half they ran Ridley 7 times, Woodhead 3 times, and Bolden 3 times.  Against Miami in the first half they ran Ridley 10 times, Vereen 8 times, and Woodhead 3 times.  So they subbed pretty freely in Miami too, with Vereen and Woodhead playing a pretty prominent role alongside Ridley.  

    Lastly, Brady threw 22 times in the first half against Miami and 24 against Jax.  The run-pass mix in the first half against Miami was a little more equal than the run-pass mix against Jax in the first half, but that mostly had to do with the hurry-up drive that ended the first half in Jax, which resulted in a lot of passing on the final TD drive of the half--again as the situation called for. 

    The big difference in the play of the offense was the O-line: a much stronger performance against Miami than against Jax.  

    Defense was also better in the Miami game.  The pressure was very good against Miami, but the Pats were sending 5 or 6 a lot, which is something they rarely do.  They must have seen a weakness on the film, since that's a strategy they haven't employed much.  Or maybe it's something they may feel they can do more with Francis coming on strong and Jones healthy again?  Will be interesting to see what they do in the playoffs with the pass rush.  I was surprised, though, to see so many defensive plays with five or more rushing the QB. It paid off against Miami . . . not sure it would work against every team.  

     

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    Run was established. Also, I've always stated it's fine to run the Woodhead stuff early in the game to show everythihg, just don't get away from the run with a lead back.

    CHeck, check and check.

    God forbid the offense run fluidly yet still do exactly what I am looking for a nice methodical, fluid run of series.

    Brady with low stats, but tremendous leadershop and game management. THAT is how we win a SB and somehow you don't like it.  Sick. Absolutely sick.

    If you can;t see the difference in the Houston and Miami games vs SF/JAx you have some issues. The O Line was dictating EARLY, getting their feet wet with runs, McDaniels stayed patient, and it eventually all added up and overwhelmed Miami as the game went. How the stats show up are irrelevant. The philosphy was correct.

    Ridley, 20 carries, lead back. Success. Brady, game manager, 0 INTs. Success.

    Defense was better because they weren't defending short fields over and over and over and over in succession within 30 second to a minute, before having a chance to catch their breath.  Get it?

     

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    They tried to establish the run in Jax too, but with less success.  On their first 15 plays in Jax, they ran Ridley 6 times.  On their first 14 plays against Miami, they ran Ridley 5 times (then they brought in Woodhead and Vereen).  No real difference in the use of Ridley early.

    O line play makes a big difference, Rusty.  (Defensive opponents' play also makes a difference.)  If you think Bill and Josh (or Brady) changed their approach yesterday, you're sadly mistaken.  Sure, they modify the game plan based on opponents (and conditions, which actually did have an effect yesterday), but the biggest difference between Jax and Miami was execution, especially by the O line.  

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    Frank, don't get all worked up.  Rusty was clearly into that wine early last night.  By rough count, the Pats were under center in about 15 of their first 25 plays against the Jags and about 15 of their first 28 plays against Miami.  So there was no big difference in use of the "shotgun spread" early in the game.  Later in the Miami game, with a three TD lead, the Pats ran a bit more with Brady under center as you'd expect given the situation; the Pats also had a hurry-up drive to end the first half in Jax, which also used more passing and spread formations, again as the situation called for.

    Another of Rusty's big bugaboos besides the use of the shotgun spread is the subbing of running backs.  I haven't counted who was in on every play, but against Jax in the first half they ran Ridley 7 times, Woodhead 3 times, and Bolden 3 times.  Against Miami in the first half they ran Ridley 10 times, Vereen 8 times, and Woodhead 3 times.  So they subbed pretty freely in Miami too, with Vereen and Woodhead playing a pretty prominent role alongside Ridley.  

    Lastly, Brady threw 22 times in the first half against Miami and 24 against Jax.  The run-pass mix in the first half against Miami was a little more equal than the run-pass mix against Jax in the first half, but that mostly had to do with the hurry-up drive that ended the first half in Jax, which resulted in a lot of passing on the final TD drive of the half--again as the situation called for. 

    The big difference in the play of the offense was the O-line: a much stronger performance against Miami than against Jax.  

    Defense was also better in the Miami game.  The pressure was very good against Miami, but the Pats were sending 5 or 6 a lot, which is something they rarely do.  They must have seen a weakness on the film, since that's a strategy they haven't employed much.  Or maybe it's something they may feel they can do more with Francis coming on strong and Jones healthy again?  Will be interesting to see what they do in the playoffs with the pass rush.  I was surprised, though, to see so many defensive plays with five or more rushing the QB. It paid off against Miami . . . not sure it would work against every team.  

     

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    Don't  look now, Prolate, but you're very likely aligning with Phat Rex as you try to be selfish and weasel in your little premise as wanting finesse offense to dominate our run game approach gameplans.

    I wouldn't do that because you look foolish. Did you go the game?

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    I'm not wedded to any particularly offensive philosophy.  I'm more interested in understanding what our coaches are actually doing than sticking to some pre-formed agenda about what works or doesn't work. 

    Didn't go to the game yesterday.  Flew down for Houston and SF and will be coming down for the playoffs, but figured this was a good one to watch from home.  

     

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to dapats1281's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    I also love how everyone will be raving about Denver, who hasn't played anyone in over 2 months.

    LOL

    Don't think for a second that won't make a difference and BB doesn't realize that.

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    Denver has played crap opponents, but they have obliterated them. Not like they were barely winning most of those games. They did what they could with the second half schedule .

    Pats have definitely had the Bronco's number the past two seasons, but I think the Bronco's are playing with more confidence than ever.

    I'm looking for another epic game. Don't see a blowout for either side. Round 4 of Brady-Manning in the playoffs.

    Lets see some snow too!

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    umm, last time there was snow/sleet, the patriots really did not play well

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    Frank, don't get all worked up.  Rusty was clearly into that wine early last night.  By rough count, the Pats were under center in about 15 of their first 25 plays against the Jags and about 15 of their first 28 plays against Miami.  So there was no big difference in use of the "shotgun spread" early in the game.  Later in the Miami game, with a three TD lead, the Pats ran a bit more with Brady under center as you'd expect given the situation; the Pats also had a hurry-up drive to end the first half in Jax, which also used more passing and spread formations, again as the situation called for.

    Another of Rusty's big bugaboos besides the use of the shotgun spread is the subbing of running backs.  I haven't counted who was in on every play, but against Jax in the first half they ran Ridley 7 times, Woodhead 3 times, and Bolden 3 times.  Against Miami in the first half they ran Ridley 10 times, Vereen 8 times, and Woodhead 3 times.  So they subbed pretty freely in Miami too, with Vereen and Woodhead playing a pretty prominent role alongside Ridley.  

    Lastly, Brady threw 22 times in the first half against Miami and 24 against Jax.  The run-pass mix in the first half against Miami was a little more equal than the run-pass mix against Jax in the first half, but that mostly had to do with the hurry-up drive that ended the first half in Jax, which resulted in a lot of passing on the final TD drive of the half--again as the situation called for. 

    The big difference in the play of the offense was the O-line: a much stronger performance against Miami than against Jax.  

    Defense was also better in the Miami game.  The pressure was very good against Miami, but the Pats were sending 5 or 6 a lot, which is something they rarely do.  They must have seen a weakness on the film, since that's a strategy they haven't employed much.  Or maybe it's something they may feel they can do more with Francis coming on strong and Jones healthy again?  Will be interesting to see what they do in the playoffs with the pass rush.  I was surprised, though, to see so many defensive plays with five or more rushing the QB. It paid off against Miami . . . not sure it would work against every team.  

     

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    Don't  look now, Prolate, but you're very likely aligning with Phat Rex as you try to be selfish and weasel in your little premise as wanting finesse offense to dominate our run game approach gameplans.

    I wouldn't do that because you look foolish. Did you go the game?

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not wedded to any particularly offensive philosophy.  I'm more interested in understanding what our coaches are actually doing than sticking to some pre-formed agenda about what works or doesn't work. 

    Didn't go to the game yesterday.  Flew down for Houston and SF and will be coming down for the playoffs, but figured this was a good one to watch from home.  

     

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    Well, you sort of are. You just aligned with Phat Rex's new board name as he follows me around.

    Again, the run was established and they kept going back to it. That's the part your'e not getting about what I want to see and why you're running. It's not the total.  Ridley was the lead back, and used as such over 4 qtrs.

    Run was established.

    Balance.

    It's all right there, so you look foolish trying to act like what I wanted didn't occur in the game yesterday. You made the same error challenging me in the Houston game, where again, the run was established.  It;s not how many shotguns, etc, if the run gets established.

    Ther fact is, we didn't come out 4 or 5 wide, shotgun only over and over and over and over again as the base formation. Get it?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, it's great when the running game works. But you seem to think the play calling was a lot different between Miami and other games.  It wasn't.  Josh and Bill didn't have some kind of epiphany on Sunday . . . or suddenly grow backbones and decide to take the reins out of Brady's hands . . . or whatever cockamamie theory you're espousing right now. Sure I agree: it's great when the running game works and it does make a difference.  But 90% of the time, the difference between the running game working and not working is execution, not play calling. This was the case yesterday, because they certainly tried to establish the run just as much in Jax.  They just didn't execute as well. 

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    This will be about Brady and McDaniels and their understanding how imporant it is to get back to old school football. Cheating the football gods won't cut it. Run the ball.

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    You really think Brady and Josh and Belichick forget how to play football periodically?  

     

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to Frank158's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to Frank158's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to Frank158's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to Frank158's comment:
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    Perhaps you missed the first quarter. Brady was on pace to throw 50+ times, with more than half the plays coming from the shotgun.  Looks like Bill wanted to do what we do best, pass the ball and get a lead against one of the worst pass D's in the NFL.  Brilliant.

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    Umm, no. They kept running it and Brady was under Center a lot more than he had been in recent weeks. MUCH better.

    They also tried to target a lot of different people early, which helps.  The dump off early to Woodhead and the screens also were nice.  The playaction he had later, clearly, also developed because they didn't forget to keep running it.

    Ridley, the lead back, had 20 carries. Yep.

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    Perhaps you missed the first quarter. Brady was on pace to throw 50+ times, with more than half the plays coming from the shotgun. 

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    It doesn't matter. They still established the run.  Gregory's INT and the great D gave NE more drives than they could have hoped for.  Enough with your new  board name, whoever you are.

    You're annoying.  It's very clear, NE used a lead back, didn't forget to run for long stretches, played field position early, didn't panic/didn't turn it over, etc.

    Whoever you are with a new board name here, you won't win. This is your worst time to be trying to be belligerent.

     

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    I've noticed that whenever someone throws facts at you you say that they are annoying or they are a troll.  Now, the entire premise of your post is proven wrong and so you say it doesn't matter.

    The truth is, early in the game, we passed often, we ran and passed out of the shotgun often and we built a 21 point lead and rolled from there.  

    It was nice to see our backs hold on to the ball.  I guess that's the difference between playing a team like San Fran that has tons of take aways and Miami who is down near the bottom of the conference.

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    Laughable.  Brady would sometimes go back under Center and mix it up much more than he has in recent weeks AND Ridley was used as a true lead back for 20 carries.   That's the idea.

    I don't care if they use a lot of shotgun or passing plays in the 1st qtr. They key is to not forget about running it or establishing some variation of the run.  They did that before halftime, even showing patience after two weak first drives. That's what is important.  

    So, what other name do you use here?    Your game is not going to work. You clearly are someone here is using a new name to troll.

    And, as far as your first comment, you were completely blistered in our earlier debate.

    There is no one on planet earth who can makes the case that the 2009 draft was close in terms of depth than the 2010 one.  I already clearly explained why you are wrong. If not for the new CBA terms and a rookie cap, you'd be correct. But, there was a new CBA with a new rookie cap, with us seeing a large amount of Juniors enter the draft.

    Nighty night.

     

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    It sounds like you didn't watch the game at all and are just looking at the final stats.  

    Let me help you out.  Here's what happened in the first half.

    We ran about 43 plays.  Of those 43, about half were out of the shotgun. Of those 43, we passed 23 times and ran 20 times.  Of those 20 runs, Ridley ran 8 times, Vereen ran 8 times and Woody ran 3 times.  During that time we went up 21-0.  The rest of the game was garbage time.  As anyone who has watched football knows, when you get a 21 point lead, you run it as often as possible, unlike when you go down 31-3, where you have to pass.

    Let me know if you need any further corrections.  I feel sort of bad for you the way you post things that are just plain wrong and everyone makes fun of you for it.  If I can help you understand the game, it would be better for everyone.

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    Those digits are spot on, the first quarter was a lot of passing. 6 of the first half runs, too, came on consecutive goal line runs, so when they were moving the sticks they were mnost certainly doing it via Welker, who really had a day, and Woodhead, who did again for 79 yards rec, 19 rushing, over 100 of total offense. 

    Ridley really came on in the 2nd half, and was dominant in the 4th quarter when they needed him. This is complimentary football ... pass to score, run to win. 

    I think, though, from a running perspective, the thing that was good was that they lined up and just did it, whereas the last few weeks they had not been running well at all. And they did it when they needed to, as well.

    And Miami's run defense is very, very good. Metrically it's top five iirc. 

    Also, Brady wasn't pressured at all. The offensive line *needs* to play this way (the way it played in Texas for instance) for New England to go deep. 

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to zbellino's comment:
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    I
    Those digits are spot on, the first quarter was a lot of passing. 6 of the first half runs, too, came on consecutive goal line runs, so when they were moving the sticks they were mnost certainly doing it via Welker, who really had a day, and Woodhead, who did again for 79 yards rec, 19 rushing, over 100 of total offense. 

    Ridley really came on in the 2nd half, and was dominant in the 4th quarter when they needed him. This is complimentary football ... pass to score, run to win. 

    I think, though, from a running perspective, the thing that was good was that they lined up and just did it, whereas the last few weeks they had not been running well at all. And they did it when they needed to, as well.

    And Miami's run defense is very, very good. Metrically it's top five iirc. 

    Also, Brady wasn't pressured at all. The offensive line *needs* to play this way (the way it played in Texas for instance) for New England to go deep. 

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    the recipe for the patriots winning games hasn't changed.  I agree that the OL,TE,RBs need to protect Brady, the RB corps need to run well, Brady needs to protect the ball and not force passes, and the defense needs to hold up whenever the offense is stalled. Talib, Gronk, Nink need to be close to 100% come game time.

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    Brady threw 37 times* against Miami.  I guess those three fewer passes saved the day? Also, according to Mike Reiss, the Pats have been in the shotgun about 48% of the time all season.  Last season they ran shotgun 51% of the time according to Andy Benoit.  The difference people seem to see is a bit of an illusion.  

     

    * 36 attempts, plus one sack

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    Three percent amounts to about 2 plays per game.  No I don't think that's a huge difference.  

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    Brady threw 37 times against Miami.  I guess those three fewer passes saved the day? Also, according to Mike Reiss, the Pats have been in the shotgun about 48% of the time all season.  Last season they ran shotgun 51% of the time according to Andy Benoit.  The difference people seem to see is a bit of an illusion.  

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    You don't thinkk 3% is a large number? I do. Maybe that's what your issue is. Your barometer is completely off.

    The more you play semantics with the numbers, the more you show you don't get it conceptually.

    Again, it's GM telling us for 20 years car sales are fine, but at stoplights we see more Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans than ever before.

    Proof is in the pudding.

    Answer me this:

    Do you think the O Line lookd better last night by accident? What about the D? Do you think with a better run offense like that (in an offensive era), it helps our own D or hurts it?

     

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    It's about 39 more plays per year. Over the course of 16 games, that's roughly 2.43 (we'll round down to 2) additional plays per game in the shotgun. 

     

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    At Brady's 1.4% interception rate, an extra 2 passes a game would result in approximately three one-hundreths of an interception per game.  Over the course of a season, it amounts to about 4/10ths of an interception.  

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    He is one of seven. 

    Dickerson, Sanders, Terrell Davis, Jamal Lewis, Chris Johnson, O.J. Simpson, and Peterson. 

    I don't think doing it in the 2000's means anything, because three of those are in the 2000s. One in the 70s, one in the 80s, two in the 90's. 

    The single greatest RB season still belongs to O.J. Simpson, sad as it is. First to do it, with 2003 yards. And he did it in the era of the 14 game schedule. He was just dominant, and people forget that because he turned into a loony.

    Still, AP MUST get MVP.

    In 73, 97, 98, the MVP went to those RBs. It wasn't until the 2000's that the RBs started getting robbed so bad. Neither Lewis nor Johnson (who did have a soft 2000) got it. 

    The way that Peterson did it, with ahuge run in the clutch, against GB/Rogers to "will" his team into the playoffs, that is an MVP run. It sealed it for me, unquestionably.

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    Bear in mind, Z, that when Eric Dickerson set the current single-season rushing record, he did not win the MVP.

     

    That honor went to lovable also-ran Dan Marino.

     

    Remember that when Peyton Manning is hoisting the MVP.

     

     

     

     

     

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to dapats1281's comment:
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    In response to AyyyBoston's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    I also love how everyone will be raving about Denver, who hasn't played anyone in over 2 months.

    LOL

    Don't think for a second that won't make a difference and BB doesn't realize that.

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    Yep. Denver can beat up on the scrubs/creampuffs/whatever you want to call them. The best team they beat was a very injured Baltimore Ravens team, and that is not very impressive. I think the Bengals could give them a tough game if they upset Houston, although I still like the Texans to win that game.

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    I think the Bengals have the third highest potential in the AFC. Theyre too inconsistent for me to call them the third best team...but the Bengals best vs the Texans best, I would pick the Bengals. Geno Atkins is a beast.

     

    But I have trouble seeing anything but Brady vs. Manning. 3 straight playoff losses to Mannings, Manning with all the hype this season, Brady plays his best when the opposing QB gets all the attention.

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    Exactly.  What will happen is the media will all be in Manning's jock for the next 3 weeks, with the funny part being they haven't played a good team in 2 months.If Denver matched up well, I'd give them the edge without question, but they don't.

    They still cannot cover down the middle. That means a lot of time off the clock and Gomer's forehead on the sideline more so than he's been the last 2 months.

    In their 3 losses this year? It's been to good or great QBs with a balanced offense and good TEs.

     

     

     

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    Good point.

     
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    Re: The Time Has Come

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to dapats1281's comment:
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    In response to AyyyBoston's comment:
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    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    I also love how everyone will be raving about Denver, who hasn't played anyone in over 2 months.

    LOL

    Don't think for a second that won't make a difference and BB doesn't realize that.

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    Yep. Denver can beat up on the scrubs/creampuffs/whatever you want to call them. The best team they beat was a very injured Baltimore Ravens team, and that is not very impressive. I think the Bengals could give them a tough game if they upset Houston, although I still like the Texans to win that game.

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    I think the Bengals have the third highest potential in the AFC. Theyre too inconsistent for me to call them the third best team...but the Bengals best vs the Texans best, I would pick the Bengals. Geno Atkins is a beast.

     

    But I have trouble seeing anything but Brady vs. Manning. 3 straight playoff losses to Mannings, Manning with all the hype this season, Brady plays his best when the opposing QB gets all the attention.

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    Exactly.  What will happen is the media will all be in Manning's jock for the next 3 weeks, with the funny part being they haven't played a good team in 2 months.If Denver matched up well, I'd give them the edge without question, but they don't.

    They still cannot cover down the middle. That means a lot of time off the clock and Gomer's forehead on the sideline more so than he's been the last 2 months.

    In their 3 losses this year? It's been to good or great QBs with a balanced offense and good TEs.

     

     

     

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    Good point.

     
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