Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from clouts. Show clouts's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    First, let me say that while I am a die-hard fan of all flavors of Boston and New England sports, I am a Steelers fan. Have been for almost 40 years. OK, get your shots in and let's get that out of the way....

    While I love Ben, I will admit that there are more times than not when the ball leaves his hand, I am scared. It's backyard football at it's best, it's exciting, but also scary. When Tom throws, I am just as scared. But, for a totally different reason.

    Much has been made of late about Ben getting into Tom and Peyton's class. He's not there. However, he's probably closer than you might think. What he did in the SB he's actually been doing a lot over his career. I was fully confident he'd drive down and tie that game. Winning it? Not quite as confident, but I still thought he could do it. Now, onto the facts:

    Career season averages for each:
    Tom: 256-406 (63%) for 3766 yards, 22 TD/9 INT, 92.9 QB Rating.
    Ben: 238-381 (62.4%) for 2995 yards, 20 TD/14 INT, 89.4 QB Rating.
    *Ben rushes for about 50 yards more a year and picks up an extra touchdown+ rushing. This was neglible. I expected it to be more.

    Post Season per game averages:
    Tom: 22-35 (63%) for 232 yards, 1.5 TD/.7 INT, 89 QB Rating.
    Ben: 17-28 (61%) for 224 yards, 1.5 TD/1.2 INT, 83.5 QB Rating.
    *Ben averages about ten yards a game rushing more, closing that gap a bit, as his average per rush is much higher. Tom's PS career record is 14-3; Ben's is 8-2.

    Super Bowl Game Averages:
    Tom: 25-39 (64%) for 250 yards, 1.75 TD/.25 INT, 94.5 QB Rating.
    Ben: 15-26 (59%) for 190 yards, .5 TD/1.5 INT, 65 QB Rating
    *Again, Ben picks up about ten yards of rushing and has a rushing TD. Tom is 3-1 in Super Bowls, Ben 2-0.

    Obviously, the biggest statistical difference between the two is Ben's horrible performance in SB 40. He was atrocious. Tom was the MVP, and in a game devoid of outstanding performances, was a deserving choice IMO.
    Compare the two games:
    Tom: 16-27 (59.3%) for 145 yards, 1 TD/ 0 INT, 86.2 QB Rating
    Ben: 9-21 (42.9%) for 123 yards, 0 TD/2 INT, 22.6 QB Rating.
    -- />The difference between these two games is summed up this way: Ben's two picks, Tom's great drive. Take away Tom's drive where he was 5-6 for 53 yards, and he was a rather ho-hum all game long. See below:
    11-21 (52%) for 92 yards, 1 TD/0 INT, 64.7 Rating.

    Tom was called upon to put his team on his back to win it at the end, and he did. Kudos to him. Ben didn't need to at the end. I'd be lying if I thought he would've done it if called upon, though.

    What this study showed, to me anyway, is that Brady is better statistically then Ben in almost every category. Ben gets more out of his attempts (YPA and TD% are both higher), and he adds in the occasional rushing yards that Tom does not. I did not calculate sacks, but rest assured Tom will be much better in this category than Ben. Ben is the most sacked quaterback in football over the last few years. He's on his back more than...ah, you get the point.

    Make no mistake...Tom is a better QB. It's just not as far apart as one would think.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Hey I agree with most of what you wrote except one thing ... Roethlisberger is definitely not in the same class as Peyton Manning. Tom and Ben are in a class of their own ... the QB's who win the biggest games and don't care about statistics (ok, Tom obviously did last year, but Ben will too if he ever gets receiving threats like that). Peyton is in the class of glamour quarterbacks who are all about stats, picking on weak teams in the regular season, and getting his face all over the country. Ben is a much better QB than Peyton.

    From simple observation, I would say that Ben does not throw the ball as well as Tom but still gets the job done better than any other QB in the league.

    And I hate it when people do this but at the beginning of the season when everyone was rating QBs on this site people were all putting McNabb, Romo, Rivers, and those guys in their top 10 and most ignored Roethlisberger but I always had Roethlisberger at #3. Well now I see that I'm wrong, he should have been #2 and is now for good.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Yeah, you're probably right, Mighty. Peyton only cares about stats. And despite all appearances, there must be some valid argument that proves Peyton's a hack. And Pittsburgh's defense was only a very minor contributor to the team's SB victories. Much like Brady, Ben single-handedly won the SB all by himself, whereas Peyton was a hinderance to his team...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    In a lot of the Colts postseason games he was a hinderance. Peyton's worst performances have
    come in January. Even in their SB run, the first
    two games (KC and Baltimore) were abbhorations.
    The Chiefs got the ball first and goal on the 9 after a Ty Law INT and came away with ZERO points!
    In Baltimore it was 5 Vinatieri FGs which won the
    game, Manning failed to get into the end zone. So
    while Peyton is one of the best QBs in the regular
    season, when the games really count he is well below
    average. Not only his 7-8 postseason record bears
    this out, but also his stats. With the exception of SB
    40, Ben has been pretty good in postseason play,
    far better than Manning has been. I won't go so far
    as to say he only cares about stats, but he certainly
    hasn't shown he can step up in most crunch situations
    in the playoffs.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Well I have never seen Brady yell at his teamates for dropping a pass during a playoff game and make it seem like its not his fault they lost Brady is a team player and the same goes for Ben. Peyton on the other hand can only focus on how the droped pass is not his fault which is shining example of how he is not a team player.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    You forgot to factor in one more BIG thing... both Ben and Tom are outdoor QBs who can play in bad weather. Peyton.. his numbers go way down outside the comfy confines of the dome!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    You also forgot to factor in the other BIG thing . . .

    Ben Roethlisberger blows.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Always nice to see a good post from a non-Pats fan. The question is how will they hold up the rest of their careers? Will Brady's knee respond? Alot of times ACL's take atleast a year before a player feels like he is what he was before if at ever. Fortunately, Brady is not known for his mobility.
    Ben has had alot of concussions over his career. The big lug takes too many shots. They could have a cumulative effect. He needs to not hold onto the ball for so long if he wants to keep his brain from going to mush if it already isn't.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    He needs to not hold onto the ball for so long if he wants to keep his brain from going to mush if it already isn't.

    But that's when he makes his big plays. If he were to
    get rid of the ball as quickly as guys like Brady or
    Manning I doubt he'd be as successful. I agree with
    you about the concussions, but Ben is simply not a
    "pocket passer" like other QBs are. I wouldn't be surprised if his career is shorter than some of these
    others who stay in the pocket and utilize the "hot reads" more often.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    [Quote]Well I have never seen Brady yell at his teamates for dropping a pass during a playoff game and make it seem like its not his fault they lost Brady is a team player and the same goes for Ben. Peyton on the other hand can only focus on how the droped pass is not his fault which is shining example of how he is not a team player.[/Quote]

    Don't worry: I'm sure Brady will someday learn how to be a leader. The competitor in him may someday be aroused when a teamate drops a pass, and he'll learn how to hold his receivers to a higher standard. Apparently "team player" means to you that he doesn't care if his teamates fail and doesn't have the fire in his belly to be upset by missed opportunities...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Tom talks to the receivers after they drop a pass. But it's not as much what Manning does on the field, but in the postgame interview. Brady simply says he didn't get it done. He speaks for no one else. Manning, on the other hand has "protection problems" and the like. This is where he gets the rep for "throwing his teammates under the bus". My big knock on the guy is he seems to play subpar in the big games. But this discussion was supposed to be about Tom vs. Ben. I don't see why we're discussing Manning! And Jules, if you are looking for support for Mr. Wonderful, might I suggest Indystar as a place they'll be more receptive to you?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    If you are really trying to say that Tom Brady is not a team leader you are clearly retarded Jules, maybe you need to change youer wallet from the one that says "bad mutha f*cka" on it to one that says "I have no idea what I am talking about"
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tojo. Show tojo's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    A lot of meaningless numbers. So many things in a team game such as football will affect a quarterback's numbers for yards, td's etc. that have nothing to do with his effectiveness. What do coaches care about the most? Turnovers. Look at interceptions per game. Brady and Montana are the best for postseason careers. Over 1 per game (see Big Ben) is not elite level.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    m
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    what do coaches care about most? winning championships maybe? Big Ben has helped his team win two titles in 4 years and Brady won 3 before he even turned 27 years old so yes Big Ben is now an elite QB screw how many picks he has thrown, all that matters is getting the W and if there is one thing Brady and Ben have in common it is that they both know how to win ball games and that is all that matters.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bunchofpixels. Show bunchofpixels's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    There is no way Brady averages 22 TDs a season. He has played in 113 games and has 197 TDs. That is 1.75 TDs a game which comes out to nearly 28 TDs a season. I did the math for the yardage and it comes up to 234 yards/game for 3745 yards a season.

    Almost forgot INTs

    86 total ints for an average of .76 a game
    over a 16 game season that is about 12 INTs

    So 28 TDs 12 INTs and 3745 yards per game.

    I think Ben's numbers look about right. Maybe the fact that Brady didnt play much in 08 and 00 messed your numbers up.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kmaxx. Show Kmaxx's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Brady is the best and Ben is the 2nd best QB in the NFL today.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from clouts. Show clouts's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Ben blows. Nice.

    Anyhoo, when discussing this recently, it was suggested to look at the Yards After Catch statistic to something enlightening. I cannot find stats for a QB's career. I can only find one for 2008 season receivers (Welker led by a lot, Faulk was also in the Top-Ten; as was Hines Ward). I also found team statistics which whowed the Patriots 3rd, the Steelers 20th. I would think that trend would be consistant for each team (and therefore each QB) over the last few years as their offensive theories haven't really changed.

    Anyone know a site that may flesh this out? I am curious. It would point that Tom may get a better benefit from his receivers then Ben.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from clouts. Show clouts's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    [Quote]There is no way Brady averages 22 TDs a season. He has played in 113 games and has 197 TDs. That is 1.75 TDs a game which comes out to nearly 28 TDs a season. I did the math for the yardage and it comes up to 234 yards/game for 3745 yards a season.

    Almost forgot INTs

    86 total ints for an average of .76 a game
    over a 16 game season that is about 12 INTs

    So 28 TDs 12 INTs and 3745 yards per game.

    I think Ben's numbers look about right. Maybe the fact that Brady didnt play much in 08 and 00 messed your numbers up.[/Quote]

    That is exactly it. I took season averages for all his 9 years, and debated about it before calculating it that way. In two seasons, he played only a game each. That is a negative on him, but that is a true stat. His per/game stats would give a result similar to what you are saying. Ben learned on the job; Tom watched for a year. Tom had a season-ending injury; Ben did not.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Ok I lost all respect for you when you suggested that we should factor in seasons in which a QB didn't play.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Let's not forget that you are talking about two completely different offenses when discussing Ben vs. Brady. The Steelers clearly have an elite feature back (Parker, when healthy) and the Pats have a decent RB rotation (Faulk, Maroney, Jordan and Morris. The talent can often dictate the offensive playcalling. Moss is a better deep threat than Holmes (career) and Welker and Ward both give their teams slot/slant/ and YAC. Pittsburgh is perceived as run first team and the Pats have become reknowned for their passing game, lately. A more accurate stat would be the #yards per attempt and the # of attempts. I give credit to Ben for making some big plays, but like any QB he operates within the confines of his offense. I definitely can't see him putting up 40+ TDs any time soon. You can't discount the schedule they had, but Brady passed for 50TDs against a nasty schedule last in 07. Big Ben's season numbers aren't even as good as Cassel's in 08 and Cassel hadn't played since high school. Ben is good, but not in the same category as Brady....not yet anyway. A more interesting comparison would be Ben vs Bradshaw.

    Brady is clearly a better QB when healthy.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    Would this discussion even happen if Brady had played this year? I think not!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from DanBRL. Show DanBRL's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    I'll take Mike Ditka's opinion on Ben Roethlisberger rather than the jaded opinions of anyone here (from his appearance on Mike & Mike on Feb 2nd):

    "I heard all the talk all week, and if you're gonna tell me that Ben Roethlisberger is not an elite quarterback then you don't know what you're talking about!"
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from clouts. Show clouts's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    [Quote]Myth # 1: Ben is better than Tom Brady

    Fact # 1: Tom Brady is better than Ben R.

    3 super bowls to 2 usually wins all bets.
    [/Quote]

    I've never heard anyone dispute that. It's also closer then you think. To the point would we be saying this if Brady played this year, you could just as easily say that without 2007 the two quarterbacks are virtually even. But, I'm not saying either.

    Brady is still the best active QB, I have never doubted that and never said otherwise. I've never heard anyone say otherwise. I heard some 'pundits' say that Ben was in Tom's class now, and I do not agree. He is a step behind. How big that step is would probably be the discussion.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsgrl1103. Show sportsgrl1103's posts

    Tom vs. Ben...Myths and Facts

    I agree that Brady is a better QB but only up until last year. Right now his abilities are a bit of a question mark wouldn't you say. Isn't that one of the reasons the Pats franchised Cassel?

    Also, Brady has is 31 and Ben is only 26 and closing in on Brady's Super Bowl totals for wins. Next year should be an interesteing one. I hope that Brady comes back healthy and play the defending Super Bowl champs in the AFC Championship game next year. The Steelers are no longer the choke in the big game team they were under Cowher until 2005. It would be a great way to end the decade and a way to decide if team of the decade is a wash or goes in favor of the Pats. Until next year..
     

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