What is BB doing with the front seven?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    What is BB doing with the front seven?

    One of the more interesting stories, I think, as we head toward training camp is what will BB do with this front seven?  With the pick of Collins, there's lots of speculation that we're headed back to a 3-4.  Maybe.  But when I look at the DLs, I don't see a lot of guys who look like traditional two-gap style DEs.  Wilfork, of course, can be a two-gapping NT and Kelly is another versatile guy who could play a lot of two-gap, but when you look at the DL the one thing that stands out is how many of the guys on the roster right now are really edge type players--lighter and faster than typical two-gappers. 

    My take is BB is going to continue the evolution toward a faster, more versatile front seven (or even front eight, since I think safeties will often play like LBs.).  He'll probably play two DTs in the center who, along with Spikes, will create a powerful, run-stopping core of the defense.  But around that core, I see a lot of guys who are going to be hard to categorize as either LBs or DEs.  In fact, I think the defense is going to be full of hybrid type players--guys who seem like blends of DEs and LBs and also guys who seem like blends of LBs and Safeties.  I don't think it's going to be easy to characterize this as 3-4 or 4-3.  Instead, I'm seeing a defense who's hallmark is flexibility, with a lot of guys who can attack the LOS or drop back into coverage.  Can't wait to see what BB does, but I think we'll see some interesting innovation from him this season. Don't expect the ordinary!

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from braunzy. Show braunzy's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    One of the more interesting stories, I think, as we head toward training camp is what will BB do with this front seven?  With the pick of Collins, there's lots of speculation that we're headed back to a 3-4.  Maybe.  But when I look at the DLs, I don't see a lot of guys who look like traditional two-gap style DEs.  Wilfork, of course, can be a two-gapping NT and Kelly is another versatile guy who could play a lot of two-gap, but when you look at the DL the one thing that stands out is how many of the guys on the roster right now are really edge type players--lighter and faster than typical two-gappers. 

    My take is BB is going to continue the evolution toward a faster, more versatile front seven (or even front eight, since I think safeties will often play like LBs.).  He'll probably play two DTs in the center who, along with Spikes, will create a powerful, run-stopping core of the defense.  But around that core, I see a lot of guys who are going to be hard to categorize as either LBs or DEs.  In fact, I think the defense is going to be full of hybrid type players--guys who seem like blends of DEs and LBs and also guys who seem like blends of LBs and Safeties.  I don't think it's going to be easy to characterize this as 3-4 or 4-3.  Instead, I'm seeing a defense who's hallmark is flexibility, with a lot of guys who can attack the LOS or drop back into coverage.  Can't wait to see what BB does, but I think we'll see some interesting innovation from him this season. Don't expect the ordinary!

     



    I completely agree that the “4-3/3-4” doesn’t really apply, the Pats definitely have a hybrid type of defense. They already had guys like Ninkovich who has played 3-4/3-4 OLB and 4-3 DE, I think Hightower is another guy like that maybe Cunningham too, as he has played on this inside of the line and as a 3-4 OLB and 4-3DE.

     

    Anyone can rush the passer, drop into coverage, etc. at any time, and there will always be someone to fill a position if there is an injury. It would be really interesting for someone (smarter than I) to come up with some different possible “looks” this defense could put out there.

     

    Anyways, it is going to be fun to watch this defense come into it’s own, I really feel that they have a lot of talent, not too many weaknesses and a plethora of depth (that is assuming the picks from last year take the year 2 leap).

     

    A guy like Logan Ryan who probably is talented enough (although we haven’t seen him actually play an NFL snap) to be a number 2 corner, can be their #4 or #5 corner.

     

    The only position on the team that I’m a little worried about depth is the interior O-line, but I trust that Scar will coach some guys up, and they will be fine.  Maybe Cannon makes a move to Guard this offseason?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    It's the back 7 (minus Talib) that suck.  Looks like he's trying over the past 2 drafts to replace the stiffs he has at the LB and DB positions.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    Caserio(sp) hinted that they planned to play Collins as a DE this season since he played both positions in college. He also said that, though Collins played the majority of his highlights as an OLB in a 3-4/4-3, Collins played the majority of his senior year with his hands on the floor. 

     

    They picked him because of his versitility and willingness to play wherever he's asked to play. He's played DE, OLB, MLB and S in college and BB couldn't pass that up. 

     

    So, we're most likely going to line up in the 4-3 the majority of the snaps, but plays some 3-4 when BB thinks it is needed more. 

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    It's the back 7 (minus Talib) that suck.  Looks like he's trying over the past 2 drafts to replace the stiffs he has at the LB and DB positions.



    Dennard sucks? McCourty got an All-Pro nod last season for his play at FS, Arrington was okay as the Star-CB, but I'll admit that the SS position lacks any talent. 

    We can only hope that Adrian Wilson helps them improve because Duron Harmon = Tavon Wilson = Suck.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

     

    Maybe you didn't see the absolute collapse in the AFC Championship game after Talib got hurt or maybe, like many here, you’re in denial. 

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

    Maybe you didn't see the absolute collapse in the AFC Championship game after Talib got hurt or maybe, like many here, you’re in denial. 

     



    They picked on Marquice Cole in the AFCCG, the other guys weren't attacked nearly as much as  you're implying. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    Still gonna me mainly a 4-3 team but with a lot of hybrid Dime packages and Big Nickels and 4-2-5, 3-3-5 alignments to take advantage of extra DBs to cover. The Collins kid can rush, but he may be used to cover Rbs and Te's. We have enough Hybrid De/OLBs to play 3-4, but I still dont see the wealth of 3-4 D Lineman who can make it a realistic change to 3-4. Maybe here and there but Vince can 2 gap  but who else??

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to 49Patriots' comment:

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

     

    Maybe you didn't see the absolute collapse in the AFC Championship game after Talib got hurt or maybe, like many here, you’re in denial. 

     

     



    They picked on Marquice Cole in the AFCCG, the other guys weren't attacked nearly as much as  you're implying. 

     



    Well BB, like me, obviously sees an issue with the back 7.  In the last 2 drafts he's invested 8 of 14 picks on back 7 players.


     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from braunzy. Show braunzy's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    In response to 49Patriots' comment:

     

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

     

    Maybe you didn't see the absolute collapse in the AFC Championship game after Talib got hurt or maybe, like many here, you’re in denial. 

     

     



    They picked on Marquice Cole in the AFCCG, the other guys weren't attacked nearly as much as  you're implying. 

     

     



     

    Well BB, like me, obviously sees an issue with the back 7.  In the last 2 drafts he's invested 8 of 14 picks on back 7 players.

     



    It didn't seem like anyone really played all that well that game.  The Ravens seem to play their best game against the Pats, as do most teams, where as New England seems to have a hard time stringing plays together against them.

     

    I like their chances this year though, I consider them improved on paper, and I don't think they are done making moves yet. Health seems to always be a big issue for the Pats the past couple of years, hope we have some luck and start getting healthy going into the playoffs and not the other way around.

     

    I think the back 7 has finally been addressed in a way that hopefully they will actually have some continuity back there. It's nice that they actually have the same starters Talib, Denard, McCourtey, Wilson and Arrington back for another year, and more depth behind them in Duron, A Wilson Ryan and hopefully Dowling

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    Well BB, like me, obviously sees an issue with the back 7.  In the last 2 drafts he's invested 8 of 14 picks on back 7 players.

    Draft picks, last 2 years:
    DB - 5
    LB - 3
    DL - 3


    Looks like a pretty even distribution across the D, especially when you consider DBs have more versatility on special teams.  I think it's safe to say Coach thinks our entire D has needed an infusion of talent.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to 49Patriots' comment:

    Caserio(sp) hinted that they planned to play Collins as a DE this season since he played both positions in college. He also said that, though Collins played the majority of his highlights as an OLB in a 3-4/4-3, Collins played the majority of his senior year with his hands on the floor. 

     

    They picked him because of his versitility and willingness to play wherever he's asked to play. He's played DE, OLB, MLB and S in college and BB couldn't pass that up. 

     

    So, we're most likely going to line up in the 4-3 the majority of the snaps, but plays some 3-4 when BB thinks it is needed more. 

     



    I can see Collins playing 43 DE in passing situations as he has the speed and good hand movement similar to Von Miller but he's still light on running downs and not sure he wouldn't get washed out against larger Ts on the edge. Nink in on running downs and Collins on passing downs maybe? On Hightower as 43 DE on running downs, Collins as OLB then flip them on passing downs?

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    The last three seasons the Patriots have ranked #1, #2 and #5 in the entire NFL for interceptions.

    The past three seasons they have ranked #15, #14, #17 in the entire NFL in sacks...

    Conversely:

    In our three championship years we ranked #7, #1, #8 in the entire NFL for interceptions.

    In our three championship years we ranked #13, #6, #4 in the entire NFL for sacks.

    It's fairly obvious the improvement needs to happen in the front seven.  You build a football team from the inside out.  If you don't do your job up front then the back end suffers.  

    We don't sack, don't get pressure, leave opposing QB's all day to throw.  We've won championships with worse defensive backfields, Troy Brown playing nickel back in the playoffs comes to mind... 

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    Nice thread, when they made the pick I've got to admit I immediately thought we were heading to the 34 again, but maybe not. Collins kind of reminds me of a poor man's Von Miller or Mark Anderson - so I think there is the possibility that initially he will be used as a sub rusher to take the heat off of Jones and then...who knows? I do think our defensive linemen are capable of being the 2 gap style of players...Deaderick is certainly big enough...Love too. Wilfork was born to play nose tackle. Kelly is a huge player. No one really knows what Armstead will bring and we did sign a nose tackle as a priority free agent (now I know that doesn't mean we are going the 34, but this guy is strictly a two gap...hold your ground nose tackle). We wouldn't of signed a guy like that last off season. Buchanan looks like he could be developed into a hybrid outside type. 

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    The last three seasons the Patriots have ranked #1, #2 and #5 in the entire NFL for interceptions.

    The past three seasons they have ranked #15, #14, #17 in the entire NFL in sacks...

    Conversely:

    In our three championship years we ranked #7, #1, #8 in the entire NFL for interceptions.

    In our three championship years we ranked #13, #6, #4 in the entire NFL for sacks.

    It's fairly obvious the improvement needs to happen in the front seven.  You build a football team from the inside out.  If you don't do your job up front then the back end suffers.  

    We don't sack, don't get pressure, leave opposing QB's all day to throw.  We've won championships with worse defensive backfields, Troy Brown playing nickel back in the playoffs comes to mind... 

     

     



    +1, the main reason I wanted to go DT first this year. In a deep DT draft I thought it would have been the best way to fix or poor interior pass rush. Lets face it Love and Deadrick can't get to the QB which is why Cunningham, Francis, and even Nink were used at DT on 3rd downs at times.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    +1, the main reason I wanted to go DT first this year. In a deep DT draft I thought it would have been the best way to fix or poor interior pass rush. Lets face it Love and Deadrick can't get to the QB which is why Cunningham, Francis, and even Nink were used at DT on 3rd downs at times.



    In retrospect, this draft may not have been quite as deep at DT as people thought.  Only 3 DTs went in the top 40, and 5 in the top 80.  Considering the lack of QB/RBs drafted, that looks like a pretty weak DT class.

    By comparison, those numbers were 4/7 in 2012, 3/8 in 2011 and 5/11 in 2010.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    BB was an early adapter, if not the modern creator, of the 3-4.  He put 310 pound Richard Seymour on one end, 300 pound Ty Warren on the other end and Two Ton Ted at two-gapping nose tackle.

    There will always be a big fat guy in the middle, except against Miami Big Vince was farmed out to end to counter their biggest fattest tackle.  Wilfork at 350 or 375 pounds is critical -- note his $40 million dollar contract extension. 

    The defensive ends are getting to be extremely tall, long and great leapers.  BB may be influenced by Jean Pierre-Paul of the Giants.  When the Pats face the Giants, BB hands the defensive linemen tennis rackets so that they can swat down Brady's passes.  Anyone that can shut down BB's offense gets his notice.  So, BB is going with something similar.  Chandler Jones can leap a mile in the air, he can hold a block against the run and he can sack too. 

    This new guy Collins, a #52 pick, is 6 foot 6 with arm length and he can leap a mile in the air on top of that.  They're talking about him occasionally playing nickel back.  This sounds bizzare but Collins has several advantages.  First, if Collins drops back into zone coverage, he has an extra half second to react to the throw and leap into the sky.  If Peyton Manning thinks he can throw over Collins and still hit the receiver, he'd better think again.  Second, if anyone goes over the middle, there's a 250 pound guy who can accelerate taking a bead on him.  Mass multiplied by velocity equals impact force.  Third, it's still the front  seven even with a "nickel back".  Collins can stuff a runner like a linebacker.  In a no-passer offense such as the 2013 Jets, Collins can play strong safety and still cover tight ends and running backs.  On a safety blitz the safety can bull rush a guard. 

    There's one knock on Collins, that he reportedly has stiff hips so he can't cover man to man.  He'll never play cornerback, that's for sure.  We'll find out if he can play nickel.   

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    I believe we'll be much better off this year with Kelly and Armstead playing defensive ends with Wilfork on the nose; Love, Deaderick and Fortson will provide depth giving us a solid group to play more traditional 3/4.  

    Collins as a rookie will probably be started off playing end for some of the same reason Chandler Jones was, it's a lot easier to learn how to rush upfield like a defensive end than learn the intricacies of outside linebacker.  I think he has all the skills to play every linebacker position all the way across the board, that's why they liked him. Certainly he's not a pure elephant linebacker the way Jones is, so I can see them being the bookend outside linebackers with  Collins on the weakside in the not too distant future.

    Obviously we'll still employ the four man front we've run more recently, but then we've always wanted the versatility to run a 4/3 when need be.  There are still free agent defensive tackles available (Seymour anyone?) as well as TJ Barnes an undrafted free agent who I really wanted to draft late and get his chubby rear end in shape. 

    Either way the camp battles will be interesting...

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mooney12. Show Mooney12's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to 49Patriots' comment:

     

    Caserio(sp) hinted that they planned to play Collins as a DE this season since he played both positions in college. He also said that, though Collins played the majority of his highlights as an OLB in a 3-4/4-3, Collins played the majority of his senior year with his hands on the floor. 

     

    They picked him because of his versitility and willingness to play wherever he's asked to play. He's played DE, OLB, MLB and S in college and BB couldn't pass that up. 

     

    So, we're most likely going to line up in the 4-3 the majority of the snaps, but plays some 3-4 when BB thinks it is needed more. 

     

     



    I can see Collins playing 43 DE in passing situations as he has the speed and good hand movement similar to Von Miller but he's still light on running downs and not sure he wouldn't get washed out against larger Ts on the edge. Nink in on running downs and Collins on passing downs maybe? On Hightower as 43 DE on running downs, Collins as OLB then flip them on passing downs?

     


    Female Dog Dennard nor McCourty sucks.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    I dunno. I'll guess. Orgies?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: What is BB doing with the front seven?

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    It's the back 7 (minus Talib) that suck.  Looks like he's trying over the past 2 drafts to replace the stiffs he has at the LB and DB positions.




    So McCourty is a bad S? Dennard is a bad CB? Wilson was only a rookie. I guess you expect every decent player do be as good in his rookie year as in his 5th.

     

    SO Mayo is a bad player? So Hightower - another rookie - is a bad player? Spikes is not so good in coverage but he sucks against the run?

    OK. I guess you must know what you are talking about. Let's hope and pray they trade all those players. Maybe they can get some Jets.

     

     

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