Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    Pats D rank was based on points allowed.

    Colts recent year ranks:

    2007 Colts #1 D Points Allowed
    2005 Colts #2 D Points Allowed
    2009 Colts #8 D Points Allowed
    2008 Colts #8 D Points Allowed

    Not a good argument to say Brady had a huge advantage based on his defense. 
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time:
    i love brady, but to say manning has more to do is silly forget best QB he is the best player in the NFL.  4 time mvp more than brady, montana,bradshaw, together. 50,000 yards passing 366 td and rotten teams. 5or 6 years left the numbers will be staggering.
    Posted by CHUBBIE99

    Manning may hold all the records when he's all done (if he stays healthy) but he doesn't yet so I can't really put him at the top for things he might do.  Actually, now that I think about it, "all the records" is really only the career records for TD's and yards.  I tend to think the season records are more important since they are not related to how long a QB plays.  For season records, I don't know if he'll ever break the season record of 50 TD's, and it doesn't look like he'll get close to Marino's record of 5084 yards in a season.  His 2004 season put him at 16th on the record book for yards per season.  Now for career yards he would have to beat Favre who is about 20,000 yards ahead of him, which is around 5 or 6 years, the problem is as long as Favre plays he will still be 5 or 6 years behind.  He may get this record if he stays healthy until 39 or 40.  TD's he is about 4-5 years behind Favre so it is likely he will get that record (unless Favre plays until he's 42 or forever).  When Favre "retired" 3 years ago it seemed inevitable Manning would break his records, but the longer Favre plays the less likely it is he'll hold any records.  I don't know what you mean by rotten teams. 

    But then there is the problem of how we digest these numbers.  Almost all of the top numbers for QB's come from active QB's.  The top ten season yards leaders contain 5 active QB's.  8 of the top ten TD seasons are held by active QB's.  You see names like Daunte Cullpepper and Matt Schaub in the list of best seasons.  Rodgers first 2 years as a starting QB were both for over 4000 yards. 

    The fact is it's easier to be a QB now.  Marino held records for 20 years (1st and 2nd in season TD's, and current record for yards), I doubt Brady or Manning's numbers hold up that long.  Even in his era Marino was dominant, 5 time yards leader, 3 time TD leader.  Manning is 2 time yard leader and 3 time TD leader.  that really only puts him marginally better than Favre who led in TD's 4 times, yards twice, Young who led in TD's 4 times, and Brady who led in TD's twice and yards twice.  Next to his peers Manning just isn't as dominant as most people think and not as dominant as Marino was in his era.  So base on numbers I can't put Manning in the top 3 yet, and certainly not base on SB's.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time:
    russgriswold, i love the pats, its easy to say he only should have won 2 mvps but its 4 and no other player NFL history has done that. bradys super bowl years 2004 number1 defense  2003 number2 defense 2001number4 defense. you gave manning that kind of defense its over.        ((dome or parking lot ))     
    Posted by CHUBBIE99


    Manning has had exactly those defenses.  And the Pats 01 defense was 6th not fourth.

    Pats 2001 defense -6th,  SB win    Colts 2008 defense -7th,  Wild card loss
    Pats 2003 defense -1st,  SB win    Colts 2007 defense -1st,  2nd round loss
    Pats 2004 defense -2nd,  SB win   Colts 2005 defense -2nd,  one and done

    It appears if you gave Brady the Colts defense there would be 3 more SB's.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time:
    russgriswold, i love the pats, its easy to say he only should have won 2 mvps but its 4 and no other player NFL history has done that. bradys super bowl years 2004 number1 defense  2003 number2 defense 2001number4 defense. you gave manning that kind of defense its over.        ((dome or parking lot ))     
    Posted by CHUBBIE99


    The media can give Peyton Manning all the MVPs they want, what they can't give him is championships.

    The media was crowning him the greatest of all time b/c it was a done deal that he was going to win the superbowl. How did that work out?

    At the end of the day, it is hard to define his legacy by MVPs that are determined by the same people who had crowned him before he had even played the game.

    Brees had a better year than Manning this year (more TDs, less interceptions, broke completion percetange, etc), playing on a team that theoretically had a worse defense than the Colts, and he is as valuable to the Saints as Manning is to the Colts - so why did Manning get the MVP? According to the media it's b/c he had won every game he wanted to win. So did he not want to win the Superbowl? Or was the media a little premature in their coronation?
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    i did not say manning is better than brady, my point was enjoy him you may not see anther one like himm for long time.  colts defense 2006 super bowl year ranked 23
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time:
    i did not say manning is better than brady, my point was enjoy him you may not see anther one like himm for long time.  colts defense 2006 super bowl year ranked 23
    Posted by CHUBBIE99

    Yes, clearly he carried that team with his 3 TD's and 7 interceptions in the playoffs. The last I heard he is the only QB to ever win a SB while throwing more interceptions than TD's in the playoffs.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    shenanigan is dominating.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    ok you win he should just quit, they should start (painter) i agree.
     
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    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time:
    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time : Don't be silly, O'Connor is nothing more then a fair weather Dome QB.  Now Charo was a true great.
    Posted by Tcal2


    OHH My GAWD Charro was so hot back in the day! How bout Elke Sommers, the blonde babe from Germany. I would have given Peyton Mannings left nut to go with her back then
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

     yep    
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    Hey Chubbie, I can't deny how great Peyton Manning is. To me he is a top 5 QB, but let's be honest, he isn't very clutch. 

    1.)Don't count MVPs, you forget that MVPs are given by the same people who annioted Peyton Manning the greatest of all-time prematurely. Peyton Manning didn't deserve the MVP this year-- Brees did. He didn't deserve it last year-- Brees or Rivers did. And as someone has pointed out already, he didn't deserve to share it with McNair. 

    2.) We all know Peyton has the stats, but he wasn't exactly playing with Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel as his WRs (The 2006 Pats offense). He's had Marvin Harrison (Top 3 WR to ever play the game), Reggie Wayne (Top 10 WR in the history of the game), Dallas Clark (Top 5 TE in the history of the game). Don't tell me that Peyton makes these players great because before Wayne and Clark joined the Colts in 03, the only time Peyton Manning threw 30+ TDs in a season was once. And he's always had Marvin.  


     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    You'd have to put Montana #1 for his superbowl performances.  122 career rating in SBs, 11 tds and 0 ints.  Those numbers are so good they are disgusting.  That is when you want a guy to play his best.

    One myth that needs to be cleared up is the "Montana had Rice and Brady won with no one" - Untrue.  Can you name a starting WR from Montana's first SB win?  How about from his second SB team?  Dwight Clark maybe?  Troy Brown was twice the receiver Clark ever was.

    Elway was great - I loved John, and he carried some terrible teams, but his performances in the SB were indefensible.  He was decent in 1985 against the Giants, but put up absolutely horrible games against the Redskins (who were fairly evenly matched with Denver) and the 49ers. 

    Another guy that never gets mentioned is Stauback.  He entered the NFL late at age 27 and still led his teams to 4 SB appearances and 2 SB wins.  He was the orignal comeback kid and played great in big games, including the SB.  His SB rating was off the chart in 3 of those games.
     
    Montana is #1, followed by Elway/Brady, and I put Stauback in the top 5.
     
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    49 pat, i am not saying manning is the greatest of all time. but people on this act like he has never wow big games before he does have super bowl ring 2 app.  beat us 2006 afc championships game, and has beat us 5 out of the last 6. and lets be fair brady is 4-4 in his last 8 playoff games with 14 picks.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    casportsfan, if you are just going by rings how about bradshaw4  aikman 3
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

         Whitlock's list is laughable. Here it is, with my comments dispersed therein:

         Here are the 10 greatest QBs of all time:  ( According to Whitlock )

    1. John Elway: Tremendous athleticism. He was Vince Young, except he could throw it accurately to any place on the field. Defensive coordinators and safeties feared his long arm so much that running backs Gaston Green, Bobby Humphrey and Sammy Winder all earned Pro Bowl berths taking handoffs from Elway. But the myth is Elway benefitted from Terrell Davis and Davis didn't benefit from Elway. Elway made the Broncos relevant and dangerous for 16 straight years.

    RESPONSE: Elway was perhaps the most athletic QB of all-time. But...the greatest?? Hardly. He won his two SBs when he was well past his prime, thanks to a very good OL, a hall of fame TE (Shannon Sharpe), and a great RB who, despite a shortened career due to injury, should be a hall of famer...Terrell Davis.  

    2. Joe Montana: In 10 seasons as a full-time starter in San Francisco, Montana won four Super Bowls, three SB MVPs and two AP league MVPs. He finishes No. 2 because he's not as big, strong and athletic as Elway. Montana excelled in a rhythm and timing passing game. How would he perform in the era when DBs were actually allowed to defend receivers?

    RESPONSE: Joe Cool played on one of the greatest dynastic teams of all time. Its' hard to argue with those four SB rings in four tries. Whitlock makes a good point that Joe played prior to the Polian passing rules. Nonetheless, in accessing Joe, one must credit his Hall of Fame coach, Bill Walsh, for a large measure of his success. Walsh was the first to impliment the West Coast offense, which was tailor made for Joe's skills. This style of offense took the NFL by storm. Today's defenses are still struggling to find a way to stop it. 

    3. Johnny Unitas: On this, I defer to the old-timers who swear Mr. Unitas was as good as the modern QBs. He tossed 32 touchdowns in 1959! He led 34 fourth-quarter comebacks, which is second-best all time. He was MVP of the league three times and first-team all-pro five times. He dominated and defined the position throughout the 1960s.

    RESPONSE: Unitas was tough, and was a great leader. After his lone title in 1959, he smacked into the Packer dynasty of the 1960s. The Packers appeared and lost in the NFL championship game in 1960, before winning 6 world championships in 1961, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1966, and 1967. Since GB and the then Baltimore Colts both played in the Western Conference, the Colts had to get by the Packers to play for a title. This they weren't able to do, until the 1968 season. Though the Colts went to the SB that season, Unitas was injured for virtually the entire season, and was replaced by Earl Morrall. Though Morrall was the NFL MVP that year, he and his Colts lost that famous SB III game to the Namath led Jets. If it weren't for the Packer dynasty, no telling how many titles Unitas would have won.  

    4. Dan Marino: I don't care that he never won a Super Bowl. The dude was awesome. Marino -- not Elway -- holds the record for fourth-quarter comeback victories with 36. Elway is credited with 47, but indisputable research at profootball-reference.com proves that Marino is the real record holder. Marino set the table for the game we have today. His 48-TD, 5,000-yard sophomore season is the equivalent of Wilt Chamberlain's 50-points-a-game season.
     
    RESPONSE: Sorry...but this is far too high a rating for Dangerous Dan. No matter what his stats, the fact that he never won a SB can't be simply discarded. During Dan's era, the best teams in the NFL resided in the NFC. With the AFC wide open, there's no reason why Marino only reached the SB one time...and that early in his career.  

    5. Steve Young: You could make a strong case for Young being No. 2 behind Elway. He's just as athletic as Elway. Problem is, Young's resume isn't quite long enough to justify it. He had seven great seasons in San Francisco. He rode the bench behind Montana for four seasons, wasted two seasons in Tampa Bayand two seasons in the USFL. In seven seasons as a starter, Young made the Pro Bowl seven times, was all-pro three times, won the league's MVP award twice and won a Super Bowl and SB MVP trophy.

    RESPONSE: Rating Young 5th is an absolute joke. For the first 5-6 years of his career, Young failed in Tampa Bay, and/or was Joe Montana's caddy. When his time came, like Joe, his skills were perfect for the West Coast system. Though he played on some great 49er teams, he only has SB win to show for it...when he and his 9ers obliterated a relatively weak Stan Humphries led San Diego Chargers team   

    6. Tom Brady: Every name listed above his quarterbacked at least one losing team. Brady has never led a loser. Never. To me, he epitomizes winning at the QB position, even more than Montana. Joe had Jerry Rice for two of his four Super Bowl victories. Brady won three Super Bowls with Troy Brown. Brady is a combination old-school, new-school quarterback.

    RESPONSE: Too low for Tom Terrific. With three SB titles out of four tries, and one that was taken away from him by the Colt loving, Polian fearing referees, no way that Tom should be cast below the likes of Dan Marino and Steve Young. Tom won two of his three titles before the Polian passing rules...and won during the salary cap era.

    7. Brett Favre: He owns all the records good and bad. He's durable. He's courageous. Teammates love to play with him. He would be a star in the 1920s. It's popular to trash Favre now. The game of football is far better with him than without him. If he comes back next season and gets a second Super Bowl, no one will ever doubt his greatness.
     
    RESPONSE: I always felt that Favre was overrated, until I saw him play this past season. Tougher than a nickel steak, and not afraid to go for the jugular, I've got to give this guy his due. Sure, there have been some key picks. But, his teams overachieved with him at QB.

    8. Peyton Manning: He might one day move into the top five of this list. But not today. Manning is perfect for the Madden video game era. You put him in the 1960s and 1970s -- when defenders could beat up QBs -- and he just might be Jim Everett. Remember the scrambling play Eli Manningmade to win XLII? Peyton would have never made that play because he would've fallen to the ground long before a defender touched him. Again, I like Peyton. He just has some work to do before we overlook his shortcomings and anoint him.

    RESPONSE: He has been the greatest beneficiary of the Polian Passing Rules. But, despite his gaudy stats and tons of regular season wins, he's not a top 5 guy. Manning is soft, and would have never survived in the Unitas/Starr/Staubach/Bradshaw days. As his 9-9 playoff post season record attests, he's tends to choke when the bacon is on the line.

    9. Roger Staubach: People forget he missed four seasons because of his commitment to the Naval Academy. He was a 27-year-old rookie in 1969. Think of what his career might have been without his service to our country. He won two Super Bowls and was a six-time Pro Bowler despite an abbreviated career.
     
    RESPONSE: Underrated. Great leader. Would have won two more SBs had it not been for the great Steeler dynasty. Captain Comeback. No one was better in the two minute drill than Roger.

    10. Fran Tarkenton: He was a great player in two decades -- the 1960s and '70s. He quarterbacked the Vikingsto three Super Bowl appearances. He played 18 seasons. He could scramble. He was an accurate passer, completing 60 percent of his passes five of his final six seasons. This was long before a 60-precent completion rate was common place. We often overlook Tarkenton's sustained greatness.
     
    RESPONSE: Like Staubach, Sir Francis had the misfortune of running into strong AFC SB teams in the Steelers and Raiders. Lack of height hurt him. The Drew Brees of his time...only more mobile. In his early years, Fran played on some bad Vikings and Giants' team. But, his talents and ability to improvise made those teams respectable, and fun to watch.

         My list:

    1.) Bart Starr;

    2.) Joe Montana;

    3.) Otto Graham;

    4.) Tom Brady;

    5.) John Unitas;

    6.) Terry Bradshaw;

    7.) Brett Favre

    8.) Roger Staubach;

    9.) John Elway;

    10.) Tie...Fran Tarkenton, Peyton Manning

     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    In Response to Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time:
    [QUOTE]My List: Montana (4 SBs, almost flawless when it mattered, Joe Cool) Brady (3 SBS and the only Dynasty throughout the cap era since 1993 with almost no offensive personnel to speak of) Unitas (the best of the early eras) Graham (arguably the best winner withh 8 titles) Marino (the best pure passer ever) Baugh (totally underrated and somehow forgotten, the first QB to really be a passer) Manning (overrated, but his stats are impressive even with Polian influecing the officials and manipulating rules to help him) Elway (overrated, but in the end, cracks the top 10) Starr (won 3) Staubach (won 2 and was the best NFC QB of his era) Honorable mention:  Bradshaw, Favre, Steve Young, Tarkenton To me, the top 5 are very clear.  You have the best pure QBs ever to play, some with similar skill sets, but what they had in common was the ability to singlehandedly win games.    I  may put Brady above Montana as the all time greatest some day due to the fact Brady has had his teams absolutely stripped of coaches and players in the clearly more difficult cap era, but for now Montana is the bellweather with 4 rings.   Brady also had complete cast offs or at best GOOD personnel to work with minus 2007 and 2009.  Meanwhile, Montana had the luxury of one offensive minded coach and the pre-cap era where the same great personnel was kept at will. My honorable mentions are left off, because as great as they are, they had some GREAT adavtanges by playing on loaded teams during their careers. For example, Brett Favre won his MVPs and his SB when Ron Wolf was the GM there.  Since Wolf left GB along with all those great Pro Bowl players, Favre had two very good/great seasons in the last 10 years.  That's pretty much the criteria I used for why the HM QBs aren't in the top 10.  Also, someone like a Favre has the worst TD/INT ratio of any HOF QB and lost way too many games he should have won by selfish, sloppy play.  This year's playoff loss was quintenssential, flawed Favre.
    Posted by russgriswold[/QUOTE]

    Russgriswold clearly knows his stuff;  good job.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    I've seen worse lists than this for sure. I'm not as high on Young or Elway. Elway's early years weren't the greatest and I've seen him make many mistakes. Plus I don't remember him going up against many dominant teams during his prime in the afc, the nfc was another story and it showed in his early Super Bowl years. I thought Marino could be higher, I've never seen someone shred teams every week like that guy did and I don't remember his teams having a defense or running game either.
     
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    Re: Whitlock`s Top 10 QBs of all-time

    1. Johnny Unitas ( Don't bother me with facts about stats and Super Bowls. Unitas is number one and then there's everyone else. It's like Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest fighter who ever lived even though you never saw him fight and PSPN wants to brainwash you into believing that Ali was the only fighter who ever existed ).
    2. Joe Montana.
    3. Tom Brady.
    4. Terry Bradshaw.
    5. Troy Aikman.
    6. Otto Graham.
    7. Fran Tarkenton.
    8. John Elway.
    9. Roger Staubach.
    10. Jim Kelly.
     

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