Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are the two best QBs in the league and they get picked off on occasion. 

    Chris Johnson was the best running back in the league last year and gained over 2,000 yards yet he lost 3 fumbles.

    The point is not to say that Wilfork is as good at his position as Manning, Brady or Johnson are at theirs; the point is that generalizing from the particular rarely depicts someone or something with any degree of accuracy.

    Wilfork is among the best D-Linemen in the league; the plays mentioned happened to be sure.  But so did 100s of others where there was little or no gain on a running play because Wilfork clogged it up.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    Yes even dominant players get beat now and then, but they shouldn't get beat horribly when it really matters - like on a last stand for the super bowl.  A dominant D lineman should at least be able to hold his ground against the best O linemen in the game.  If Wilfork is dominant, what does that make Jeff Saturday - superman?

     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]YOUR scapegoat might have been Ellis Hobbs but I played the game, i love the game and football is a team sport and the NE Patriots football team lost that game not Ellis Hobbs. No room for "scapegoats" on the Pats they are a team and you would never hear any of them blame Hobbs for that game. Leave that crap for Indy fans and Peyton Manning.
    Posted by MVPkilla4life[/QUOTE]

    It was a joke, read the whole string to understand the context.  There were plenty of other reason that the Pats lost. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]Yes even dominant players get beat now and then, but they shouldn't get beat horribly when it really matters - like on a last stand for the super bowl.  A dominant D lineman should at least be able to hold his ground against the best O linemen in the game.  If Wilfork is dominant, what does that make Jeff Saturday - superman?
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Brady got picked off in the red zone with the game on the line in a playoff game against Denver a couple of years ago.  Manning got picked off in the SB last year with the game on the line.   By your standard, they're not great.  Sorry, I can't buy into that reasoning.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D : Brady got picked off in the red zone with the game on the line in a playoff game against Denver a couple of years ago.  Manning got picked off in the SB last year with the game on the line.   By your standard, they're not great.  Sorry, I can't buy into that reasoning.
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

    I have to agree with ATJ on this one. A play is a play wether it's the first snap of preseason or a goalline stand with seconds left in the Superbowl. Sometimes guys get beat- no matter how good they are. The context is meaningless. Just because YOU really wanted him to make that play doesn't mean he isn't an elite player.

    One play does not make a player. It just doesn't. If he were doing that on a regular basis like Peyton Manning, for example, you would have a point. But it was one play.  
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D : I don't agree. Addai walked right through a gaping hole with no one remotley behind Wilfork trying to plug the hole.  He went in untouched. Indy was going to score from the 2 yard line, dude. It was just  a matter of when.    NE was going to need those timeouts to try to win the game with one last drive.
    Posted by russgriswold[/QUOTE]

    Russ: I always enjoy reading your stuff and you are a die hard Pats fan. You will argue the spots of a Dalmatian to support the team..If your theme holds true, why then did we have the amazing goal line stand in the Sh-t-head dome against the same team where we held on four downs from the one?

    If Bill knew they would score, why not both times...Vince got beat..it happens...
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]Yes even dominant players get beat now and then, but they shouldn't get beat horribly when it really matters - like on a last stand for the super bowl.  A dominant D lineman should at least be able to hold his ground against the best O linemen in the game.  If Wilfork is dominant, what does that make Jeff Saturday - superman?
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Weren't you the guy that was arguing with me a couple of weeks ago because I said our defense was subpar last year?
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    You can't compare a QB throwing an interception to a DL getting pancaked.  A QB's job is immensely more complicated than a DL's and the result of each throw will depend on pretty much all 22 players out on the field.  A DL just has to focus on beating the man across from him - Wilfork wasn't even double teamed on the Colts or Ravens plays.  If you're a dominant nose tackle and you're standing between the RB and the super bowl, you have to be able to dig deep and hold your ground.

    Russ, sorry but your theory is ridiculous.  BB had two choices:

    A.  Stop them, burn a timeout, they kick field goal.  Pats have 1:00, 1 timeout to go in a tie game. 

    OR

    B.  Let them score, be down by 4 with 2 time outs and 1:00. 

    There is no way BB chose B.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    And ewhite our D was not subpar, it was awesome last year.  I never said Wilfork was subpar, I said he was good/very good, he's just not an invincible run stopper.  I think everyone on here agrees with this.

     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    I believe it, without Seymour teams could focus on Wilfork.  Even Warren was b*nged up and missed games so they could just focus on Wilfork.  I bet his performance in the Ravens game was because of his injury. 

    I think Warren and Wright will free him up this year.

    Holy crap, you can't write b-a-n-g-e-d on here.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    They looked awesome for the final 3 quarters against the Ravens after the offense stopped turning the ball over in Pats territory.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]And ewhite our D was not subpar, it was awesome last year.  I never said Wilfork was subpar, I said he was good/very good, he's just not an invincible run stopper.  I think everyone on here agrees with this.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Yup they were all great. I remember praising Wilhite last year.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]They looked awesome for the final 3 quarters against the Ravens after the offense stopped turning the ball over in Pats territory.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Yuh they were awesome. I loved the game against Houston too where we couldn't stop sh!tt in the second half.  Chad Henne looked pretty good in the second half too. That guys going to the hall of fame. I especially liked the Gutsy performance against the Saints. That was Stellar... We did put up some good defensive numbers against the Bills and the Bucs though. And who could forget that punishing defense in the second half of the Colts game where we went for it on 4th down because Belichick knew our defense would give up 60 yards on 3 plays.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    RkTeamGPts/GTotPtsPtsPts/GRshRecPRetKRetINTFUMBlk FGBlk PntXPMFGMSFTY2-PT
    1New York Jets1614.823623614.8118022300231900
    2Dallas Cowboys1615.625025015.6719101000281800
    3Baltimore Ravens1616.326126116.3817100001272400
    4San Francisco 49ers1617.628128117.61214011000262900
    5New England Patriots1617.828528517.8625001201331400
    6Cincinnati Bengals1618.229129118.21218002000302300
    7Green Bay Packers1618.629729718.6529001001341331
    8Indianapolis Colts1619.230730719.21019010100273002
    9Carolina Panthers1619.230830819.21514113200331901
    10Minnesota Vikings1619.531231219.5526101210302200
    11San Diego Chargers162032032020.01023110000332501
    12Denver Broncos1620.232432420.21118113000332900
    12Pittsburgh Steelers1620.232432420.2722042200322202
    14Arizona Cardinals1620.332532520.31322003000381910
    14Atlanta Falcons1620.332532520.31025102000372000
    16Buffalo Bills1620.432632620.41914003100322212
    17Houston Texans1620.833333320.81719003000392000
    18Washington Redskins162133633621.01019003200313122
    19Philadelphia Eagles1621.133733721.11127001000382101
    20New Orleans Saints1621.334134121.31915100200362710
    21Chicago Bears1623.437537523.41429000000382502
    21Cleveland Browns1623.437537523.41522002200393000
    23Oakland Raiders1623.737937923.72416010000413010
    24Jacksonville Jaguars1623.838038023.81228011110382412
    25Miami Dolphins1624.439039024.41623003000353302
    25Seattle Seahawks1624.439039024.41727101000442202
    27Tampa Bay Buccaneers162540040025.01628002000442610
    28Tennessee Titans1625.140240225.11631010000462201
    29Kansas City Chiefs1626.542442426.51825020201472910
    30New York Giants1626.742742726.72131100100471801
    31St. Louis Rams1627.243643627.22422014300511911
    32Detroit Lions1630.949449430.91835013000553111
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]Rk Team G Pts/G TotPts Pts Pts/G Rsh Rec PRet KRet INT FUM Blk FG Blk Pnt XPM FGM SFTY 2-PT 1 New York Jets 16 14.8 236 236 14.8 11 8 0 2 2 3 0 0 23 19 0 0 2 Dallas Cowboys 16 15.6 250 250 15.6 7 19 1 0 1 0 0 0 28 18 0 0 3 Baltimore Ravens 16 16.3 261 261 16.3 8 17 1 0 0 0 0 1 27 24 0 0 4 San Francisco 49ers 16 17.6 281 281 17.6 12 14 0 1 1 0 0 0 26 29 0 0 5 New England Patriots 16 17.8 285 285 17.8 6 25 0 0 1 2 0 1 33 14 0 0 6 Cincinnati Bengals 16 18.2 291 291 18.2 12 18 0 0 2 0 0 0 30 23 0 0 7 Green Bay Packers 16 18.6 297 297 18.6 5 29 0 0 1 0 0 1 34 13 3 1 8 Indianapolis Colts 16 19.2 307 307 19.2 10 19 0 1 0 1 0 0 27 30 0 2 9 Carolina Panthers 16 19.2 308 308 19.2 15 14 1 1 3 2 0 0 33 19 0 1 10 Minnesota Vikings 16 19.5 312 312 19.5 5 26 1 0 1 2 1 0 30 22 0 0 11 San Diego Chargers 16 20 320 320 20.0 10 23 1 1 0 0 0 0 33 25 0 1 12 Denver Broncos 16 20.2 324 324 20.2 11 18 1 1 3 0 0 0 33 29 0 0 12 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 20.2 324 324 20.2 7 22 0 4 2 2 0 0 32 22 0 2 14 Arizona Cardinals 16 20.3 325 325 20.3 13 22 0 0 3 0 0 0 38 19 1 0 14 Atlanta Falcons 16 20.3 325 325 20.3 10 25 1 0 2 0 0 0 37 20 0 0 16 Buffalo Bills 16 20.4 326 326 20.4 19 14 0 0 3 1 0 0 32 22 1 2 17 Houston Texans 16 20.8 333 333 20.8 17 19 0 0 3 0 0 0 39 20 0 0 18 Washington Redskins 16 21 336 336 21.0 10 19 0 0 3 2 0 0 31 31 2 2 19 Philadelphia Eagles 16 21.1 337 337 21.1 11 27 0 0 1 0 0 0 38 21 0 1 20 New Orleans Saints 16 21.3 341 341 21.3 19 15 1 0 0 2 0 0 36 27 1 0 21 Chicago Bears 16 23.4 375 375 23.4 14 29 0 0 0 0 0 0 38 25 0 2 21 Cleveland Browns 16 23.4 375 375 23.4 15 22 0 0 2 2 0 0 39 30 0 0 23 Oakland Raiders 16 23.7 379 379 23.7 24 16 0 1 0 0 0 0 41 30 1 0 24 Jacksonville Jaguars 16 23.8 380 380 23.8 12 28 0 1 1 1 1 0 38 24 1 2 25 Miami Dolphins 16 24.4 390 390 24.4 16 23 0 0 3 0 0 0 35 33 0 2 25 Seattle Seahawks 16 24.4 390 390 24.4 17 27 1 0 1 0 0 0 44 22 0 2 27 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 16 25 400 400 25.0 16 28 0 0 2 0 0 0 44 26 1 0 28 Tennessee Titans 16 25.1 402 402 25.1 16 31 0 1 0 0 0 0 46 22 0 1 29 Kansas City Chiefs 16 26.5 424 424 26.5 18 25 0 2 0 2 0 1 47 29 1 0 30 New York Giants 16 26.7 427 427 26.7 21 31 1 0 0 1 0 0 47 18 0 1 31 St. Louis Rams 16 27.2 436 436 27.2 24 22 0 1 4 3 0 0 51 19 1 1 32 Detroit Lions 16 30.9 494 494 30.9 18 35 0 1 3 0 0 0 55 31 1 1
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Couldn't stop teams in the redzone though and couldn't stop any decent offense in the 4th quarter when we needed to.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]I believe it, without Seymour teams could focus on Wilfork.  Even Warren was b*nged up and missed games so they could just focus on Wilfork.  I bet his performance in the Ravens game was because of his injury.  I think Warren and Wright will free him up this year. Holy crap, you can't write b-a-n-g-e-d on here.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    depends on how you use the word, if you say "I b.a.n.g.e.d my head" you are cool.

    If you say "Underdogg b.a.n.g.e.d the sh-- out of manning last night" as in "hittin that thing," then it is a problem......
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D : Right, but look at the source: The Pass. New secondary/weaker pass rush. So, this means their run D was good, but their pass D was vulnerable in this area. With Pees gone, an emphasis on this, more continuity, in my opinion an improving pass rush, I fully expect an improvement here. Not saying you are railing on this rebuilt D, but the people that do want to ignore the progression BB is taking with these players.  If you are top 10 in the league in some defensive categories on the front end of a rebuild on D, that's quite good. I am telling you, they'll be better in these areas.
    Posted by russgriswold[/QUOTE]


    I'm only referring to last year Russ.
    I clean the slate for this team every year. And from the little I saw last week it's encouraging. Just having another decent ILB and a Safety that looks like a safety in Spikes and Chung will be a great improvement.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]Oh, I know you were. I am just pointing out to the troll types of how good it is to have a foundation for a rebuilding D to work from. Some of them act like this D was awful and ranked in the bottom 3rd of the league.  Utterly clueless and irrrational at the same time. As we know, this D was not as bad as it has been painted here.  They did more than they should have in my opinion, where the offense failed to bail them out against great teams like Indy and NOs on the road, or even putting too much pressure on them in NY, Denver and Miami. Anyone going into last year thinking NE's D would be a SB caliber D through the season, is mentally deranged. The Harrison and Bruschi retirements, the trading of Seymour to sign the more important Wilfork, walking away from an aging Vrabel, etc, all had to happen at some point, and BB is doing a great job building these slots back up. What happened to the SF 49ers and Cowboys in the mid 90s?  They pretty much were stuck for about 4-5 seasons after they broke their teams up. This is a fantastic job here by BB, the scouts and Reese. DE is sort of a bridge position right now, but that's ok. That's what next year's 4 picks in the top 64 are for.
    Posted by russgriswold[/QUOTE]



    They seem to have a lot going for them this year with the younger guys getting a year older. I was hoping Cunningham would make the game tonight but it looks like he's out of action. Bodden I believe is out of commission as well so we should see plenty of McCourty again. I predict McCourty returns a Kickoff for a TD tonight too. MY early release pick to click of the day.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    How can you complain about the D last year?  We were the #5 D in the league!  Our secondary got lit up in a few games?  So did 32 other teams.  And we've been a top 5 or top 10 D all decade.  If you expect a D that will never blow a lead or never get lit up by a great QB, you are dreaming.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    If you could get the same points allowed in each game for the rest of the Pats existence as we did last year, you'd be a fool to turn it down.  One day the Pats will be giving up 400 points a season and we'll be begging Dean Pees to come back.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]You can't compare a QB throwing an interception to a DL getting pancaked.  A QB's job is immensely more complicated than a DL's and the result of each throw will depend on pretty much all 22 players out on the field.  A DL just has to focus on beating the man across from him - Wilfork wasn't even double teamed on the Colts or Ravens plays.  If you're a dominant nose tackle and you're standing between the RB and the super bowl, you have to be able to dig deep and hold your ground. Russ, sorry but your theory is ridiculous.  BB had two choices: A.  Stop them, burn a timeout, they kick field goal.  Pats have 1:00, 1 timeout to go in a tie game.  OR B.  Let them score, be down by 4 with 2 time outs and 1:00.  There is no way BB chose B.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    My point, which you have yet to address, is that singling out one or two plays out of 100s, is generalizing from the particular and that is invariably an imprecise measurement.  My point IS NOT to equate Brady's performance with Wilfork's. 

    http://www.profootballcentral.com/2009/06/30/the-top-five-best-nose-tackles-in-the-nfl/

    The above is one writer's opinion on the top 5 nose tackles in the NFL.  He lists Wilfork as number 3 behind Shaun Rogers and, of course, Jamal Williams.  I take it neither Rogers nor Williams ever get beaten? If they have then they can't be that good by your measurement.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    I said Wilfork is good/very good.  I can understand if you think he's better, but I watch him every week too and I see many plays where he is pushed aside or the RB is able to get by him for a few extra yards.  He just doesn't look dominant to me.  I'm very happy he's on the team and there might not be anyone better, I just think he has weaknesses.

    And the two horrible plays that stand out to me happen to have come on critical plays during the playoffs, the one against the Colts was on the most important play of the season - he should have been able to hold his freaking ground when the Super Bowl was on the line - so that example stands out a little stronger in my memory and has tarnished my image of him (from dominant to good/very good). 
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]I said Wilfork is good/very good.  I can understand if you think he's better, but I watch him every week too and I see many plays where he is pushed aside or the RB is able to get by him for a few extra yards.  He just doesn't look dominant to me.  I'm very happy he's on the team and there might not be anyone better, I just think he has weaknesses. And the two horrible plays that stand out to me happen to have come on critical plays during the playoffs, the one against the Colts was on the most important play of the season - he should have been able to hold his freaking ground when the Super Bowl was on the line - so that example stands out a little stronger in my memory and has tarnished my image of him (from dominant to good/very good). 
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Fair enough and points taken.  Reasonable and knowledgeable Pats fans may disagree on the just how good Wilfork is but we seem to very much agree that he is good.  

    Enjoyed the exchange.
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    In Response to Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D:
    [QUOTE]I said Wilfork is good/very good.  I can understand if you think he's better, but I watch him every week too and I see many plays where he is pushed aside or the RB is able to get by him for a few extra yards.  He just doesn't look dominant to me.  I'm very happy he's on the team and there might not be anyone better, I just think he has weaknesses. And the two horrible plays that stand out to me happen to have come on critical plays during the playoffs, the one against the Colts was on the most important play of the season - he should have been able to hold his freaking ground when the Super Bowl was on the line - so that example stands out a little stronger in my memory and has tarnished my image of him (from dominant to good/very good). 
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, But why do hate Wilfork?Wink
     
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    Re: Wilfork: Great read on his take on replacing Warren and development of D

    Russ you have to explain this to me.  The choices were:

    A.  Tie game, 1 time out, 1:00 to go.  Brady has the ball.

    OR

    B.  Down by 4.  2 time outs.  1:00 to go.  Brady has the ball.

    WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD CHOOSE B?


    Tongue out

     

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